Canon's Full Frame Future [CR2]
- Thread starter Canon Rumors Guy
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The 18MP thing could be a huge misdirection. Being very specific, great way to isolate a leak in your organization.
But it is plausible.
Canon IS a practical kind of company in what it offers. It wants to offer what is best for REAL photography, not necessarily moronic tests on DXO, DP, or to please the tech junkies who want specs. This is why Canon likes the AA filter. It improves IQ. To the layman or amateur, current day use of an AA filter in a DSLR seems like an archaic practice.
The same is true of megapixels. The 1DX absolutely and undeniably proves that its IQ is superior to the higher MP 5D3 as the ISO goes up. Megapixels certainly isn't everything. Less noise more than makes up for less resolution. High resolution is of no help to anyone and cannot be realized or used when it is utterly destroyed by noise. This is a fact. There is no debate. The thousands of images made in comparison is the evidence to all who are not blind.
Also, real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine. While the 5D3 is the wedding photography king, a lot of event shooters use the 1DX also for its low light capability. They aren't bothered in the slightest about the MP count because they know the images these cameras produce is more than enough for any wedding album or print.
Really, if you need more MP for a larger print - they now offer the 5DS for that. And once you are in the realm of creating large prints with such high detail - you're either doing studio or landscape work, and high ISO isn't in the game any more. This was a good segregation of specialties by Canon.
All that said, for the NEEDS of real pros (not the wants of internet reviewers), 18MP would not be viewed at all as a negative selling point, not if the ISO was improved at least 1 stop.
Thus, this is a plausible rumor because it appears that Canon is basically giving the 1DX sensor to the 5D4. Not a bad move at all. Nothing wrong with it. Now, if it is an improved 1DX sensor at 18MP (using newer process), even better. But we'll see.
Now, from a marketing point of view - this would be disastrous. All the tech junkies, nerds and people who argue and debate incessantly about the most minute aspects of technical specs and THEORETICAL IQ will be in uproar over this. To them, going down in MP signifies a step backwards. Even though direct evidence to the contrary is in their face as to why this is not.
But this all depends on who Canon is marketing the camera to. If the 5D line is going back to its roots as being for pros - no problem. If there is still a large enough market of prosumers and techies with lots of disposable cash, it could be a problem. They'll miss out sales to these people.
There's still rumor of a two-flavor 5D4, one with the 18MP and the other with 28MP to satisfy everyone. Personally, I don't see splitting that model out happening like it did with the 5DS.
If the 6D2 is decent enough, an 18MP 5D4 is possible.
The 6D2 though will be sufficiently crippled to protect any 5D4. Namely, weaker AF system and single-card slot. In order to have those extra 10 megapixels, you'll give up probably one full stop of ISO, a high end AF system and the data safety of a 2nd card slot. (and likely 4K video). All of which, in my opinion, is a major deal breaker for anyone thinking about saving money by doing professional work with the 6D2. Precisely what Canon wants.
So a 6D2 has got to be the prosumer all purpose camera to appease the masses, while the 5D4 becomes a serious tool for the event photographer.
Another thing to note is, 18MP would be a bit of a gamble for Canon. By going "backwards" in MP, and taking a major hit in marketing - Canon would really, truly need to come through on ISO performance. It would need to be a TRUE 1 stop improvement across the board at minimum. But I would say it would have to be more. 1.5 stops would be sufficient to balance out the lower MP count issue.
If it is anything short of 1 stop, this will be a flop. It will need to be easily noticeable in IQ side by side comparisons with the 5D3. None of this drawn out side by side comparing to try and find the differences. On a basic zoom in of the image, it will need to be immediately apparent. A short glance to say "wow, big difference" ...not tedious pixel peeping of very similarly noisy images.
1.5 stops isn't unreasonable. the 1DX is basically a stop better than the 5D3, so right there that sensor has it. Add in newer sensor technology and it shouldn't be out of reach I would think.
Overall though, I'm not too certain about this rumor. If I had to bet, I would say the 5D4 is going UP in megapixels. There's just something wrong about going down, and Canon knows it. Marketing will prevail. After all, Canon did not have to put out 50MP in the 5DS, they could have done 36 - 46 MP instead. 50 was a marketing driven goal.
I expect the 5D4 to be anywhere from 24 - 28MP, and improve ISO by 3/4 stop, but no more than 1. It will get close to the 1DX in ISO, but with more MP. I expect a 20 or 22MP sensor with one more stop of ISO on the 1DX2. Which will be amazing.
If there's going to be any real big leaps (like full stop improvements), it's going to be on the flagship. Not the 5D line.
Figure it this way. With 18MP in a 5D4, Canon pleases pros and those doing real practical photography. But kills themselves in the media and marketing world. On the other hand, if they go 24-28MP, now they don't have to come up nearly as big in ISO because they don't have to offset a "downgrade" in MP. They'll still improve ISO a bit, just not as much. This overall is still an improvement. They will still please the pros and event shooters, all without killing themselves in media and marketing.
Which is most likely? The latter. The latter is because it is positive in all areas without causing damage. The former is problematic and thus unrealistic.
18MP in a 5D4 is ONLY happening as a two-model offering, if that even happens.
But it is plausible.
Canon IS a practical kind of company in what it offers. It wants to offer what is best for REAL photography, not necessarily moronic tests on DXO, DP, or to please the tech junkies who want specs. This is why Canon likes the AA filter. It improves IQ. To the layman or amateur, current day use of an AA filter in a DSLR seems like an archaic practice.
The same is true of megapixels. The 1DX absolutely and undeniably proves that its IQ is superior to the higher MP 5D3 as the ISO goes up. Megapixels certainly isn't everything. Less noise more than makes up for less resolution. High resolution is of no help to anyone and cannot be realized or used when it is utterly destroyed by noise. This is a fact. There is no debate. The thousands of images made in comparison is the evidence to all who are not blind.
Also, real pros doing real work know that 18MP is perfectly fine. While the 5D3 is the wedding photography king, a lot of event shooters use the 1DX also for its low light capability. They aren't bothered in the slightest about the MP count because they know the images these cameras produce is more than enough for any wedding album or print.
Really, if you need more MP for a larger print - they now offer the 5DS for that. And once you are in the realm of creating large prints with such high detail - you're either doing studio or landscape work, and high ISO isn't in the game any more. This was a good segregation of specialties by Canon.
All that said, for the NEEDS of real pros (not the wants of internet reviewers), 18MP would not be viewed at all as a negative selling point, not if the ISO was improved at least 1 stop.
Thus, this is a plausible rumor because it appears that Canon is basically giving the 1DX sensor to the 5D4. Not a bad move at all. Nothing wrong with it. Now, if it is an improved 1DX sensor at 18MP (using newer process), even better. But we'll see.
Now, from a marketing point of view - this would be disastrous. All the tech junkies, nerds and people who argue and debate incessantly about the most minute aspects of technical specs and THEORETICAL IQ will be in uproar over this. To them, going down in MP signifies a step backwards. Even though direct evidence to the contrary is in their face as to why this is not.
But this all depends on who Canon is marketing the camera to. If the 5D line is going back to its roots as being for pros - no problem. If there is still a large enough market of prosumers and techies with lots of disposable cash, it could be a problem. They'll miss out sales to these people.
There's still rumor of a two-flavor 5D4, one with the 18MP and the other with 28MP to satisfy everyone. Personally, I don't see splitting that model out happening like it did with the 5DS.
If the 6D2 is decent enough, an 18MP 5D4 is possible.
The 6D2 though will be sufficiently crippled to protect any 5D4. Namely, weaker AF system and single-card slot. In order to have those extra 10 megapixels, you'll give up probably one full stop of ISO, a high end AF system and the data safety of a 2nd card slot. (and likely 4K video). All of which, in my opinion, is a major deal breaker for anyone thinking about saving money by doing professional work with the 6D2. Precisely what Canon wants.
So a 6D2 has got to be the prosumer all purpose camera to appease the masses, while the 5D4 becomes a serious tool for the event photographer.
Another thing to note is, 18MP would be a bit of a gamble for Canon. By going "backwards" in MP, and taking a major hit in marketing - Canon would really, truly need to come through on ISO performance. It would need to be a TRUE 1 stop improvement across the board at minimum. But I would say it would have to be more. 1.5 stops would be sufficient to balance out the lower MP count issue.
If it is anything short of 1 stop, this will be a flop. It will need to be easily noticeable in IQ side by side comparisons with the 5D3. None of this drawn out side by side comparing to try and find the differences. On a basic zoom in of the image, it will need to be immediately apparent. A short glance to say "wow, big difference" ...not tedious pixel peeping of very similarly noisy images.
1.5 stops isn't unreasonable. the 1DX is basically a stop better than the 5D3, so right there that sensor has it. Add in newer sensor technology and it shouldn't be out of reach I would think.
Overall though, I'm not too certain about this rumor. If I had to bet, I would say the 5D4 is going UP in megapixels. There's just something wrong about going down, and Canon knows it. Marketing will prevail. After all, Canon did not have to put out 50MP in the 5DS, they could have done 36 - 46 MP instead. 50 was a marketing driven goal.
I expect the 5D4 to be anywhere from 24 - 28MP, and improve ISO by 3/4 stop, but no more than 1. It will get close to the 1DX in ISO, but with more MP. I expect a 20 or 22MP sensor with one more stop of ISO on the 1DX2. Which will be amazing.
If there's going to be any real big leaps (like full stop improvements), it's going to be on the flagship. Not the 5D line.
Figure it this way. With 18MP in a 5D4, Canon pleases pros and those doing real practical photography. But kills themselves in the media and marketing world. On the other hand, if they go 24-28MP, now they don't have to come up nearly as big in ISO because they don't have to offset a "downgrade" in MP. They'll still improve ISO a bit, just not as much. This overall is still an improvement. They will still please the pros and event shooters, all without killing themselves in media and marketing.
Which is most likely? The latter. The latter is because it is positive in all areas without causing damage. The former is problematic and thus unrealistic.
18MP in a 5D4 is ONLY happening as a two-model offering, if that even happens.
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I just want the highest IQ for still/landscape in regular (or controlled) lighting conditions.
dont care about video
dont care about huge amounts of autofocus points
dont care about 1 million ISO
dont even care about FPS
pure image quality is what I want from a full frame body. i.e. a 5d IV or 5dx. an un-compromised body would be awesome
If its moving, I'll grab a 1dx or a 7d
if it doesnt = 5d?
perhaps the 5ds/5dsR is the current match but I still feel they are somewhat compromised, even though the video has thankfully been scaled back on the sR
dont care about video
dont care about huge amounts of autofocus points
dont care about 1 million ISO
dont even care about FPS
pure image quality is what I want from a full frame body. i.e. a 5d IV or 5dx. an un-compromised body would be awesome
If its moving, I'll grab a 1dx or a 7d
if it doesnt = 5d?
perhaps the 5ds/5dsR is the current match but I still feel they are somewhat compromised, even though the video has thankfully been scaled back on the sR
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verysimplejason said:
Plus another 1 here. I want to switch to full frame for macro but I need an articulated screen - tilt-only would be ideal. The D750 has it. Now the A7RII has it. Come on Canon, don't make me buy a Sony...
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This is not possible without making it too expensive for its market segment. Maybe you should consider MFD?massive said:
Not everyone has this luxury, the 5D-series seems to be the FF all-'rounder, not a specialist camera (except maybe event/wedding photographers).
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Orangutan said:
I appreciate not everyone has that luxury - but its not my business to suggest a camera which will work for everyone. I'm merely stating what I would buy in a heartbeat for my needs. It's ok to be selfish sometimes you know
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I think the logic shown here i.e. competitive full frame cameras at the Nikon D610, D750, D810 & D4S price & feature points is exactly where Canon needs to be. If the 6D moves up to compete with the D750 then they will not have an entry level full frame camera. Moving the 5D MKIII to compete with the Sony A7S seems like a strange move its logical competitor is the A7R / Nikon D810.LSXPhotog said:
As stated by others the 6D needs better AF and less banding everything else about the camera works fine and fixing both of those doesnt make it 25% more expensive dont penalise loyal customers to make up for the iPhone brigade. The 5D MKIV should have better resoltion and better DR if Sony can do it why not Canon, and upgrades to the AF only if their is something majorly wrong with the present system which their is not. Like the 6D its weakness is banding in low light or dominate grey / white areas which also in its case highlight noise.
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If true about 5DIV, the used and refurbished market for the 5DIII will be smokin' for years!!!
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If these rumors on the 5D IV are true, I will get a Sony A7RII
I am NOT willing to sacrifce 4 MP for better ISO performance, as I mostly shoot in Situations where the ISO performance of the 5D III is already sufficent. What I want is a better resolution to get better Details when cropping into pictures. And better DR would also be good.
So for me the 5D IV should defentily move into the direction of the A7RII. Make it faster with around 7-8 fps, 28-36 MP, new (really improved) sensor, weather sealing, 4k (that canon is still 50:50 on that is so ridiculous - YES! it must have 4k at least with 30p) and GPS.
I am NOT willing to sacrifce 4 MP for better ISO performance, as I mostly shoot in Situations where the ISO performance of the 5D III is already sufficent. What I want is a better resolution to get better Details when cropping into pictures. And better DR would also be good.
So for me the 5D IV should defentily move into the direction of the A7RII. Make it faster with around 7-8 fps, 28-36 MP, new (really improved) sensor, weather sealing, 4k (that canon is still 50:50 on that is so ridiculous - YES! it must have 4k at least with 30p) and GPS.
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wtlloyd said:
+1
1DX is already where the 5D4 is in the sensor rumor. Except you get a superior body, more FPS and other features. A gray market 1DX for $3999 is tempting. Especially since Canon isn't likely to release a 5D4 for less than the 5DS.
This alone is probably another reason why 18MP isn't happening in the 5D4.
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I for one hope the 5d4 does not go down in resolution. I also don't think it needs to go up a whole lot either.
I shoot mainly landscapes, but other things too. I don't have a 5DS (yet), but with my 5d3 I can print 24 x 36 with pretty darn good results. I am not sure the huge file size of the 5DS coupled with what are nice, but relatively small improvements in build quality and features over the 5d3 is a good trade.
I also would like to see the 5D4 at about 24-28MP, with some improvement in DR, high ISO, build quality etc. The DR issue is discussed ad nauseum but the reality is that at some point Canon will have to address this to at least some degree. It would be nice to have simply to make PP a little faster, even if it really only affects a small percentage of shots for most people.
The 6D2 may end up having a lot of these specs, but I think a lot of us buy 5d series bodies because we want the build quality, weather sealing, features etc. found on the 5 series. It would be a shame to have to give up resolution to keep all the features we love on our 5D's.
The 1DX2 sounds like it will be awesome, but the price tag pretty much takes it out of the running for a lot of people.
I have pretty much always shot Canon, and it would take a lot for me to switch. A Canon
"D750" equilvalent I think is what most people would really like. If you think about it, the D750 is really just the Nikon version of the camera I want, ie. an upgraded 5D3.
Except I want a Canon, not a Nikon or Sony, since I have no interest in losing all the advatages of an awesome camera system, ergonomics and a UI I know very well.
I shoot mainly landscapes, but other things too. I don't have a 5DS (yet), but with my 5d3 I can print 24 x 36 with pretty darn good results. I am not sure the huge file size of the 5DS coupled with what are nice, but relatively small improvements in build quality and features over the 5d3 is a good trade.
I also would like to see the 5D4 at about 24-28MP, with some improvement in DR, high ISO, build quality etc. The DR issue is discussed ad nauseum but the reality is that at some point Canon will have to address this to at least some degree. It would be nice to have simply to make PP a little faster, even if it really only affects a small percentage of shots for most people.
The 6D2 may end up having a lot of these specs, but I think a lot of us buy 5d series bodies because we want the build quality, weather sealing, features etc. found on the 5 series. It would be a shame to have to give up resolution to keep all the features we love on our 5D's.
The 1DX2 sounds like it will be awesome, but the price tag pretty much takes it out of the running for a lot of people.
I have pretty much always shot Canon, and it would take a lot for me to switch. A Canon
"D750" equilvalent I think is what most people would really like. If you think about it, the D750 is really just the Nikon version of the camera I want, ie. an upgraded 5D3.
Except I want a Canon, not a Nikon or Sony, since I have no interest in losing all the advatages of an awesome camera system, ergonomics and a UI I know very well.
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RLPhoto said:
Same here... short of the 1dx ii giving us 16 stops of DR... the 7rII it is for me.... and it will need to fail major in the AF area for it to be de-throned by a Canon 5D announcement. What the A7Rii is , is an update to the 5d3 that Canon wont give it. If it AF's even 50% as fast as the 5d3 does, that's a no brainer for me. (I don't do sports and BIF)
The 5DS/R will be the first model in the line that is not a runaway success in my opinion. Its a very Niche body, and Canon is not thinking straight if they feel people will buy 3 5D bodies (High MP, Cinema & High DR) instead of the one 5D successor that should have encompassed all 3 attributes. The 5D3 was a brilliant all-rounder... which is why it sold so well.
Even if they knew which direction they were going to go, looks like the A7rII threw them off , and I am glad they are not making decisions in isolation anymore... but considering choices people have now.
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K said:
Absolutely disagree. "real pros" know that as soon as you crop your image that 18mp figure drops substantially. High megapixel count and high iso performance is best of both worlds. So far on paper, the a7r2 delivers both, where as Canon, as rumors suggest, is widening this divide among multiple bodies. Higher return on investment, feature wise so far, goes to Sony. Well see what canon announces, hopefully sooner than later.
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The Flasher said:
You're right. My statement of "perfectly fine" for 18MP is contingent on filling the frame. The current Canon lineup of 18, 20 and 22MP FF cameras (5DS not included), is fine until a heavy crop is needed. Then it gets ugly.
Most wedding and event pros aren't doing a lot of heavy cropping. At least not the ones I know. Filling the frame is key. Not having to fill the frame is a luxury of sorts. You can be a little quicker and sloppier. However, you pay for it in post processing. Then again, these days everything is so heavily processed - that "penalty" has become a non-factor. It's now just part of the photographic process. And this is coming from me, a person who likes to shoot JPG and get it right in camera whenever I can get away with it to avoid time wasted post-processing.
Becoming crop-dependent is a bad thing though. Although it wins you some flexibility in getting away with glass lineup, it's not a good thing over all.
Good technique of filling the frame with correct composition and using the right glass is the better way to go. But it is nice to have the flexibility to crop for sure.
This is why top pros running the 1DX and 5D3 create images that have incredibly high detail and look great even in big prints. Because 18 - 22MP is a lot of data and detail. It's just can YOU get that detail out of an image.
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RLPhoto
Gear doesn't matter, Just a Matter of Convenience.
And on top that the 5D3 is really a solid camera. You can build a business on it and they're only getting cheaper. Canon would have to make an a7rii in dslr form for me to even consider it. I don't expect canon users to flee canon but I don't doubt many users will add a a7 series camera to their bags this cycle. Canon would really have to butcher their cinema line and devour itself to make a camera compelling enough to consider now with the a7rii. Let's hope canon puts everything they got into the 5D4 and make a leap forward instead of a revamp.K-amps said:
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Canon Rumors said:
CR, I think you gage the market very well!
The extra cropping margin of a 22 or 24mp sensor would be the icing on the cake.
Bring us top tier focusing and a little more useable iso and the camera will sail off the shelf.
I tried the 5Ds, the camera, as amazing as it is, is not for me in the streets. Last night, hand holding, in a tight crowd of 100,000 people with high winds blowing, I fear I would not get a single frame sharp with the 5Ds.
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Unless Canon magically releases a mirrorless FF with electronic first curtain, I'm no longer interested in their products. I'm keeping a couple of my L lenses, but only until the Sony equivalents are available. Canon's complacency has finally killed them.
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Kiton said:
I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image.
It would only appear worse if you looked at one bigger than the other, why is that so hard to understand? Look at the 5D MkIII image bigger than the 5DS image and the 5D MkIII image would look less sharp.
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shutterlag said:
What do you see as so important in a mirrorless ff camera with an electronic first curtain that is so different from a current DSLR in Live View with an electronic first curtain?
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