Canon's Full Frame Future [CR2]

[Kiton]

I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image.

It would only appear worse if you looked at one bigger than the other, why is that so hard to understand? Look at the 5D MkIII image bigger than the 5DS image and the 5D MkIII image would look less sharp.

I checked all frames at 100%
The tack sharp ratio of frames was lower on the S than the 3.
Add the limited iso of the S, and I don't think the camera is not for me. I will hold until the 5D mk 4 comes and re-evaluate then.
The highest tack sharp ration came my 1d mk 4.
But I don't carry that camera 24/7, it is too heavy and draws too much attention. I carry a 5d 3 with a 40 stm or a sigma 35 1.4 24/7. And I really mean 24/7.

 

[gsealy]

It seems to me that these specs are somewhat underwhelming and serve to confuse the consumer. A 6DII having more MP than the 5DIV? And in my case, I am not about to spend money on any of it having a perfectly fine 5DIII. Anyway I believe you get better bang for the buck spending money on high quality glass, such as a Zeiss, because it makes every camera you own better and well into the future too.

But, we shall see what actually happens.

 

[privatebydesign]

I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image.

It would only appear worse if you looked at one bigger than the other, why is that so hard to understand? Look at the 5D MkIII image bigger than the 5DS image and the 5D MkIII image would look less sharp.

I checked all frames at 100%
The tack sharp ratio of frames was lower on the S than the 3.
Add the limited iso of the S, and I don't think the camera is not for me. I will hold until the 5D mk 4 comes and re-evaluate then.
The highest tack sharp ration came my 1d mk 4.
But I don't carry that camera 24/7, it is too heavy and draws too much attention. I carry a 5d 3 with a 40 stm or a sigma 35 1.4 24/7. And I really mean 24/7.

I stand by my point, indeed you make it very well for me.

Your 'tack sharp' results are in order of magnification, the 1D MkIV is enlarged least, the 5D MkIII second and the 5DS is enlarged over twice the size as the 5D MkIII and nearly three times the size of the 1D MkIV! Look at them all the same size, such that the subjects when shot with the same lens are the same size on screen, NOT MAGNIFICATION, and they will have the same 'tack sharp' rate.

I am not saying the 5DS is a camera you should buy, I am saying giving opinions to others based on failed methodology is silly.

P.S. If you look at downsampled 5DS files at high iso compared to 5D MkIII files the 5DS is actually a better performer. Yet another case of if you actually know what you are doing, and the best way of achieving it the Canon 5DS is performing very well.

 

[bdunbar79]

I think you don't understand the relationship between image blur and pixel size. For a same sized picture the image blur in a 5DS image would be identical to a 5D MkIII image.

It would only appear worse if you looked at one bigger than the other, why is that so hard to understand? Look at the 5D MkIII image bigger than the 5DS image and the 5D MkIII image would look less sharp.

I checked all frames at 100%
The tack sharp ratio of frames was lower on the S than the 3.
Add the limited iso of the S, and I don't think the camera is not for me. I will hold until the 5D mk 4 comes and re-evaluate then.
The highest tack sharp ration came my 1d mk 4.
But I don't carry that camera 24/7, it is too heavy and draws too much attention. I carry a 5d 3 with a 40 stm or a sigma 35 1.4 24/7. And I really mean 24/7.

I stand by my point, indeed you make it very well for me.

Your 'tack sharp' results are in order of magnification, the 1D MkIV is enlarged least, the 5D MkIII second and the 5DS is enlarged over twice the size as the 5D MkIII and nearly three times the size of the 1D MkIV! Look at them all the same size, such that the subjects when shot with the same lens are the same size on screen, NOT MAGNIFICATION, and they will have the same 'tack sharp' rate.

I am not saying the 5DS is a camera you should buy, I am saying giving opinions to others based on failed methodology is silly.

Thanks for jumping on that PBD. I was going to respond but had to tend to the ulcer I developed reading it.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

The rumors for the 5D4 are pretty disappointing. Sure a few extra stops will be nice, but I want to retain the same MP as the current camera and get the new HDR tech that's rumored to be in the 1DX2.

I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.

 

[privatebydesign]

I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.

I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade.

A stop or so here, a fps there, so what? The 5D MkIII is a supremely capable all round camera. If they just threw 4K into it as it is it would stand the test of time, make it external recording for a couple of years then a firmware upgrade to make it internal and the product is still good in 2019. Add in some general froo froo stuff, like the 1DX AF, the much better shadow noise from the 5DS and who needs to reinvent the wheel?

 

[WeekendWarrior]

So basically nothing has changed with this announcement lol.. If Canon can't get it together by the time the Sony a7R II comes out, I will be switching.. I've been trying to hold off on leaving Canon for a long time now, even after everyone else I know has already switched.

"Are consumers willing to sacrifice 4mp for a few stops of ISO performance boost? I’m pretty sure they would be."
Uh?? Says who? The a7R II will have more than double the resolution, ISO boost, while shooting 4K without any "sacrifices"

 

[meywd]

I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.

I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade.

A stop or so here, a fps there, so what? The 5D MkIII is a supremely capable all round camera. If they just threw 4K into it as it is it would stand the test of time, make it external recording for a couple of years then a firmware upgrade to make it internal and the product is still good in 2019. Add in some general froo froo stuff, like the 1DX AF, the much better shadow noise from the 5DS and who needs to reinvent the wheel?

Still many bought the 1D X, of course unless you get paid for what you do the value of the 5D III will be better, however if the 5D IV has a7S performance level with 4K video, AF of the 1D X II, improved noise handling and no banding, higher FPS, while maintaining the 5D III body and robustness, why would a few more MPs stop you from buying? Is that the most important feature? Then get the 5Ds(r)

 

[meywd]

I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade.

I'm pretty sure there are many owneres of the 5D Mk II who say much the same thing...

So basically nothing has changed with this announcement lol.. If Canon can't get it together by the time the Sony a7R II comes out, I will be switching.. I've been trying to hold off on leaving Canon for a long time now, even after everyone else I know has already switched.

"Are consumers willing to sacrifice 4mp for a few stops of ISO performance boost? I’m pretty sure they would be."
Uh?? Says who? The a7R II will have more than double the resolution, ISO boost, while shooting 4K without any "sacrifices"

... this isn't the first time that Sony's latest camera has been mentioned in this thread and it is doubtful to be the last. This is likely to be a big thorn in Canon's planning.

Really man, is that how you study the market for a new product? Reactions by unknowns on a rumor...

 

[privatebydesign]

I think that is THE issue Canon have. The 5D MkIII is so good for so many people that trying to entice those owners, who must make up the bulk of the potential 5D MkIV market, is going to be very difficult. There is nothing groundbreaking, the 5D MkIII is a crazy capable camera and no single feature is going to have thousands of owners dropping them for an expensive upgrade.

I'm pretty sure there are many owneres of the 5D Mk II who say much the same thing...

I agree, but once you go to two generations of incremental increases then the improvements become much greater. Besides, whilst the 5D MkII will always have it's fans, as the even older 5D does, they will be getting old with generally high shutter counts and thoughts of longevity and reliability start to become more important to the owners.

 

[privatebydesign]

....this isn't the first time that Sony's latest camera has been mentioned in this thread and it is doubtful to be the last.

I am sure it won't be if you can have your way, if it does and you derail yet another thread then the thread is of no interest to me.

 

[seamonster]

18mp will NOT be acceptable for a 5DIV unless there was a MASSIVE (4-5 stop) improvement in high ISO and an absurd (9-10) fps shooting AND a MASSIVE (4-5 stop) improvement in DR.

People rely on the 5D line to be "do everything" full frame cameras that have excellent AF, good framerate, nearly class leading high ISO performance, class leading video features and that includes enough resolution to crop. Are they not selling enough 7DII's to try and pull a REDUCTION in megapixels for the main model in the 5D line?

 

[Mitch.Conner]

The front page link to this thread appears to be broken. It says "0 Comments" and the button's link is to http://www.canonrumors.com/#

 

[Canon Rumors Guy]

The front page link to this thread appears to be broken. It says "0 Comments" and the button's link is to http://www.canonrumors.com/#

Works fine on my end, try clearing your cache.

 

[Takingshots]

At this juncture if Sony A7rii is as good as they stated on the write up, I will pass up Canon and go for Sony. I will be waiting for more reviews and test field b4 plunging 3,000 + dough into the new system. I will use meta bone for my Canon lens....

 

[ScottyP]

The rumors for the 5D4 are pretty disappointing. Sure a few extra stops will be nice, but I want to retain the same MP as the current camera and get the new HDR tech that's rumored to be in the 1DX2.

I'm pretty happy with my current 5D3's...if this rumour's true...I'll be missing a generation and looking to a 5D5 instead.

They have their high MP camera now. Two of them in fact, at an insane 50MP. They have realized they can't beat all the competition on every spec in one single do-it-all body. They are specializing and kneecapping the competition with specialized bodies. Solid idea.

Let the MP fans go buy the high MP camera. If Canon could REALLY add "a few" stops (as CR Guy joked) of high ISO performance to a body specially designed for that purpose there would be a big market, myself enthusiastically included. Even adding "just 2" full stops and AF at -3 or -4 EV would be insaneLy great. I would be happy to take this camera in either 5d4 form, or in a 6d2 provided they will improve the latter's AF system with about 30 or 35 all cross-type points. That light up RED in the dark.

Please please.

 

[dak723]

Would be very happy if Canon did not increase the MPs in any of their new FF. Give me bigger pixels rather than more. My 6D can give me prints well over 24" if I wanted them. I can crop almost half the frame and still get a perfectly fine 8" x 12" print.

The APS-C Cameras already have too many pixels for my liking, and as we have seen with the 5Ds models, you already need faster shutter speeds, camera improvements to minimize shake and a tripod in many situations because of the smaller pixels. No thanks to more MPs.

Of course, since a smaller MP number seems like a step backwards (even if the IQ improves, which it definitely should) people will call it a step backwards and be outraged.

 

[Kiton]

I stand by my point, indeed you make it very well for me.

Your 'tack sharp' results are in order of magnification, the 1D MkIV is enlarged least, the 5D MkIII second and the 5DS is enlarged over twice the size as the 5D MkIII and nearly three times the size of the 1D MkIV! Look at them all the same size, such that the subjects when shot with the same lens are the same size on screen, NOT MAGNIFICATION, and they will have the same 'tack sharp' rate.

I am not saying the 5DS is a camera you should buy, I am saying giving opinions to others based on failed methodology is silly.

P.S. If you look at downsampled 5DS files at high iso compared to 5D MkIII files the 5DS is actually a better performer. Yet another case of if you actually know what you are doing, and the best way of achieving it the Canon 5DS is performing very well.

You bring up an interesting point about photography in general.

There is an old saying: Ask 10 photographers a question and you will get 12 answers.

I am an old school, life long, newspaper shooter. I am pretty well published in a major market newspaper somewhere, every day of every week, year after year, for decades running now. All I care about is what I see on my screen. Charts, theories and perfect workflows mean nothing at the end of the day. What does my file look like. Not the guy next to me, the file on my card, the image on my screen, nothing else.

Is my workflow flawed? Probably!
Is my work flawed? No!

So I guess we have to agree to disagree. I shot with the s and handed it back. I was not in love with what I saw, for the way I work.

I have learned over the years that there is only ONE photographer out there whose opinion is solid enough that I will take it blindly without testing myself. One!

No one should be buying, or not buying, anything on someone else’s word. Looking at something they may want to test or try, maybe, but flat out buying or not buying based on an opinion of one fotog you don’t work with and trust blindly is insane.

I am off to shoot a portrait of a pro football player at home with his family, I bet I will break about a dozen “rules of photography” but the picture will be nice I have no doubt!



On another note, I see a bunch of posts about Canon better do this or that because Sony did XYZ.

People talk about how the Sony can/will do this and that, but when you have 300 2.8, 400 2.8, a bag full of lenses and 6 Canon flashes, you are not jumping to Sony or Nikon because of one new camera body. Sadly, Canon is very well aware of that fact.
I would bet the amount of brand jumpers is actually very low amongst people who have a substantial amount of gear. One body and 2 or 3 lenses, maybe it is a little higher. I looked at switching when Canon released the price of 200-400, but at the end of the day, I passed on the 200-400 and stayed with Canon.

have a good day guys,

 

[martti]

For somebody non-professional it is difficult to imagine what is going on in Canon's huge R&D department.
Having had the Sony A6000 for six months now I can imagine that the Canon's engineers have scrutinized every part of it and gone 'A-ha!' more than once.

They will have to do something about the Live View and my guess would be phase-detecting photosites on the sensor like they have on the A6000. There should be tracking and face recognition as well. It is unbelievable how much easier it is to get sharp pictures of screaming little kids with the Sony A6000 than with the 5DIII.

Swiveling screen is part of this, of course. You do not have to kneel down to get to eye level.

Will there finally be apps for 5DIII? People love apps...they love stuff that keeps them busy without actually achieving anything. That's what apps are for...does a typical or potential 5Dx user need apps?
Who cares, as long as he buys them! The problem with Canon is that they are a bit like Nokia was in cell phones. They think that people (not talking about professionals here but those with time and money to spare, Customers) want business while most of them want to play. Money is in passtime, games, social media and other totally idiotic stuff. I do not think Canon will introduce apps as yet. Sony will stumble with their effort and only Samsung will finally make money with the idea. They will give us apps that simulate Nikon Canon and Sony. Buy a Samsung and get the 'shooting experience' of the old greats! (And we get the cash)

What I would like to have is a configuration screen on my Mac where I could program the M1, M2, M3...the way I want to, press 'enter' and have the functions set on the 5Dx. My head is old and not very good in concentrating on things and I actually need a pencil and a piece of paper to dial in the quickset preferences.
How difficult could that be to make it happen with a USB cable? Maybe it is possible already? I do not know.

I know I am a disappearing species. Nobody else probably would enjoy having a rotating f-stop ring right on the camera body just proximally to the bayonet? After twenty years with EOS I am still not quite at home with the f-stop being where it is. I will never be. (sigh)

The megapixel war has gone crazy. Very few people actually need all the megapixels they have at their disposal.
The big files take an eternity to upload on the computer where they take a lot of space and processing power. The limitations are on the net and on the printer much in the same way as in Hifi where the amp goes from 15 to 50.000 Hz while the top frequencies can only be enjoyed by your pets and the bats in the attic.
But they are nice to have, like gigapixels and ceramic turbochargers in the four o'clock traffic jam.

Will Canon put phase detection on their screen and improve their 'gamma' or, which is more probable, just go for more pixels because more is good. The sensor goes to eleven! Like Nigel Tufnel's amp in Spinal Tap!
I would like to have a bit more stuff in the gamma curve in the lower left corner. With their current constructs, is it possible?

I would really like to get the 5Dx in camo and in pink. I cannot understand how Canon has totally neglected the needs of minorities in its exterior design. Or why not a chrome version with dark tan leather. I would probably fall for it, seeing it as the reincarnation of the Voigtländer Vito that my father had and I took a picture of President Kekkonen with it because I was so small that they let me in 1959. I was six years old.

Why only Nikon understands the retro power? Canon was there. Nikon beat Leica, Canon beat Nikon.
True, all the Canon bruisers were black but who remembers. Falsify history, make titanium, camo and chrome/leather versions. I could imagine even serious professionals welcoming various colors of 5Dx's so they could differentiate their teams...yellow goes wideangle, blue does closeups at close range, and burgundy shoot long lenses.

There is very little Canon high-class paraphernalia dedicated to the 5Dx.
Classy saddle leather, camo, canvas...how can it be that this sector is so totally neglected.
Where are the brand builders?

Could I have an HD touch screen that would fit on the flash shoe and serve as the Live View screen?
Like made by Canon? Click-click not klonk klonk? No external cables?
Does it exist? Why the hell not?

Iwould also like to see the Arca dovetail machined in the bottom plate of the 5Dx instead of having to buy these idiotic 3rd party screw-on parts. Now the construction is upside down but no big deal to turn it the right way.

And so forth. I am sure that real professionals (if some of them has read this far) alrady have hundreds of better ideas that I have presented here. Let's hear them!

 

[wsmith96]

What I read from this is that:

1) 5D IV will be the 1D X in a 5D body and maybe get the new AF as a boost.
2) 6D II will be the 5D III in a smaller, feature rich body.
3) 1D X II will be the new King to rule them all (beat the D5(s) and Sony offerings).

Correction: 2) 6D II will be the 5D III in a smaller, feature rich body, but with the 7D 19 point autofocus.