Canon's Next EOS 5DS Won't See a Big Resolution Bump

[PureClassA]

Why design a new body? The 5D3 body (now 5D4 and 5Ds/R) is arguably the most celebrated pro body ergonomics ever done. Why screw with what work and what your (by FAR AND AWAY) biggest customer base is happily accustomed to? If there is some need to make improvements, then fine. But change for the sake of change bears bad fruit. If it ain't broke. Dont fix it.

 

[ahsanford]

Why design a new body? The 5D3 body (now 5D4 and 5Ds/R) is arguably the most celebrated pro body ergonomics ever done. Why screw with what work and what your (by FAR AND AWAY) biggest customer base is happily accustomed to? If there is some need to make improvements, then fine. But change for the sake of change bears bad fruit. If it ain't broke. Dont fix it.

Sure, but they could make it better without blowing up the ergonomics:

Give it a tilty-flippy
Same geometry with less weight (carbon fiber?)
Same geometry with some clever thinning / polycarb cap in one area for some sweet low powered NFC functionality
Slightly different geometry (up top) to put in onboard wireless flash control
Build an arca plate into the base (a flight of fancy, but some would love that)
Integral selfie stick

...but you get the idea. They'll make the most of the main 5D3 design that they can, but there comes a point where small decisions add up (cable release port in front, onboard wifi + BT + GPS, etc., battery changes, etc.) that there's a tipping point in which you move to a new frame design.

- A

 

[PureClassA]

I'm good on all of that. I was referring to the physical dis cast of the body. The size and feel is ab out as perfect as you could hope for. Switching out certain parts, making it lighter, adding this or that... all fine. Keep the primary and secondary controls where they are and most importantly keep the form factor and feel identical. It will always be a winner.

Why design a new body? The 5D3 body (now 5D4 and 5Ds/R) is arguably the most celebrated pro body ergonomics ever done. Why screw with what work and what your (by FAR AND AWAY) biggest customer base is happily accustomed to? If there is some need to make improvements, then fine. But change for the sake of change bears bad fruit. If it ain't broke. Dont fix it.

Sure, but they could make it better without blowing up the ergonomics:

Give it a tilty-flippy
Same geometry with less weight (carbon fiber?)
Same geometry with some clever thinning / polycarb cap in one area for some sweet low powered NFC functionality
Slightly different geometry (up top) to put in onboard wireless flash control
Build an arca plate into the base (a flight of fancy, but some would love that)
Integral selfie stick

...but you get the idea. They'll make the most of the main 5D3 design that they can, but there comes a point where small decisions add up (cable release port in front, onboard wifi + BT + GPS, etc., battery changes, etc.) that there's a tipping point in which you move to a new frame design.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

I'm good on all of that...

Right right, agree.

I also forgot: backlit keys. That would be a very nice feature that is body-shape neutral.

Possibly also some speed efficiencies for grip attachment, like quicker / less fiddly battery cover removal and hideaway in the grip. There is nothing efficient about that process at all with my 5D3. In a perfect world where flex and sealing don't matter, something quick-connect with plug and play that obviates the need stick that thing in the battery socket would be dynamite. (But I'm guessing that's a pipe dream. Just from a design perspective, threads are somewhat essential to handle body as if it were integral and rigid.)

- A

 

[keithcooper]

I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
DPAF
Touchscreen

and here is my wishlist
60MP
7FPS
DR >= 5D4
Better high ISO performance
AF performance >= 1Dx2
Bigger buffer
cFast & SD UHS3 - I guess SD UHS3 is less likely
Focus stacking
USB 3.1
Vari-Angle - I guess this is also less likely

I would trade my 5D4 even if canon delivers the top 4 items on my wishlist.

Exactly the set of things that mean relatively little to me as a 5Ds user - sounds more like features for the 5D mk5 (apart from the 60MP)

Could this be why I have a 5Ds not a 5D4? ;-)

 

[Mikehit]

I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
DPAF
Touchscreen

and here is my wishlist
60MP
7FPS
DR >= 5D4
Better high ISO performance
AF performance >= 1Dx2
Bigger buffer
cFast & SD UHS3 - I guess SD UHS3 is less likely
Focus stacking
USB 3.1
Vari-Angle - I guess this is also less likely

I would trade my 5D4 even if canon delivers the top 4 items on my wishlist.

And how much do you want to pay for that beast?
A camera that has a sensor with 3 times the resolution of the 1Dx2, a sensor with higher DR than the 1Dx2 and better AF than the 1Dx2.
There are wishlists and there are fantasies.

 

[Isaacheus]

I guess the following will be on the new camera for sure
DPAF
Touchscreen

and here is my wishlist
60MP
7FPS
DR >= 5D4
Better high ISO performance
AF performance >= 1Dx2
Bigger buffer
cFast & SD UHS3 - I guess SD UHS3 is less likely
Focus stacking
USB 3.1
Vari-Angle - I guess this is also less likely

I would trade my 5D4 even if canon delivers the top 4 items on my wishlist.

And how much do you want to pay for that beast?
A camera that has a sensor with 3 times the resolution of the 1Dx2, a sensor with higher DR than the 1Dx2 and better AF than the 1Dx2.
There are wishlists and there are fantasies.

While not exactly the same specs, this is pretty close to the d850 in many ways, so while I don't see it as that likely, if it came out at the same price as the 5dmk4 is now (3500?), and they dropped the 5dmk4 to say 2500, that would fit in nicely.

The better autofocus than the 1dx2 I can't see happening, but the rest seems like it would quite do-able

 

[C-A430]

Here's a prediction.

If the 5DSR II has less than 60 megapixels, the 7D Mark III will have less than 24.

That's not really a prediction, that's just math. Whatever resolution the 5Ds series has, the 7DIII will of course have the same scaled down resolution, as Canon will almost certainly continue to use the same basic sensor in both.

The real question, I believe, is: will the 5Ds and 7DIII all share essentially the same sensor with the 80D? Or, will it be a new sensor with very similar resolution? I would hope it is the latter, and Canon takes advantage of an additional two- to three-years of sensor development in the new bodies.

7D2 already has better high ISO performance than 80D. 7D3 > D500 > 7D2 > 80D/70D (same high-iso noise, 80D better low-iso DR)

 

[jolyonralph]

The real question, I believe, is: will the 5Ds and 7DIII all share essentially the same sensor with the 80D? Or, will it be a new sensor with very similar resolution? I would hope it is the latter, and Canon takes advantage of an additional two- to three-years of sensor development in the new bodies.

Not now, it's too late for that. Other than Rebels and low-end mirrorless we won't likely see any new cameras with that sensor.

 

[tron]

In the imaginary case that 60Mp at 7fps seem reasonable (for the next year or two) I strongly counter-propose the 50Mp at 8fps combination. 60 vs 50 is nothing important resolution-wise but 8 fps is a serious advantage for wildlife/birding photography. Just my opinion/wish. It will not be granted anyway ;D

 

[bholliman]

If they even keep the pixel size the same but improve dynamic range and, most importantly, sensor throughput and write speed (ie frames per second) then it'd be a killer upgrade.

There have already been rumors that they'll offer a true crop mode (where the raw files are cropped and the sensor only pushes through the cropped area so framerate is much faster) which can only be done with on-chip ADC.

+1

I'm still very happy with my 5DsR. I'm not looking for more megapixals, but if they add on-chip ADC, improve throughput and write speed and add a tilt LCD w/touchscreen, I'll send Canon more of my money.

 

[glness]

I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!

 

[ahsanford]

I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!

A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down. I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective. Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc? (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.

- A

 

[Larsskv]

I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!

A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down. I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective. Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc? (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.

- A

With regards to AF. I think my 5Ds has very decent AF capabilities. Compared to the 1DXII however, the AF on the 5Ds feels a bit slow, especially in low light situations. I use the 1DXII a lot more than the 5Ds, and every time I pick up the 5Ds, it feels a bit slow and unresponsive. This makes the 1DXII much more inspiring to use.

 

[ahsanford]

With regards to AF. I think my 5Ds has very decent AF capabilities. Compared to the 1DXII however, the AF on the 5Ds feels a bit slow, especially in low light situations. I use the 1DXII a lot more than the 5Ds, and every time I pick up the 5Ds, it feels a bit slow and unresponsive. This makes the 1DXII much more inspiring to use.

So your Audi is a little sluggish while your Ferrari sings. Got it.

- A

 

[glness]

I realize everybody has different wants and needs out of a camera like this, but for my purposes—wildlife and landscape— I wouldn't care if the resolution stayed the same. I just want competitive DR, top-notch AF and double the FPS out of a new higher-megapixel camera. Give us something that can beat or stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the Nikon D850. I have the 5DS R, 5D Mark IV, and 1DX. I don't want a 20-mp camera even at 14 fps (1DX Mark II) or an APS-C camera(7D Mark II or upcoming III) for wildlife. The 5D IV and 5DS R are great, but the Nikon D850 specs out so much better. Come on Canon—give nature photographers a super high-end option. How about playing leapfrog instead catch-up. I will pay the price for quality and innovation!

A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down. I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective. Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc? (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.

- A

Thank you - A, I appreciate your response.

1) Your right! It hasn't been a first choice for wildlifers, but the problem is Canon doesn't have a high MP option for wildlife photographers and Nikon has had this for years with two superb options: First the 36-MP D810 and now the 45-MP D850 with up to 9 FPS (with battery grip). Maybe Canon needs two cameras here: one that competes with D850 and another high MP "studio" camera. If Nikon can presently get 9 FPS at 45 MP, I have to believe Canon can get 10 FPS or more at 50 MP by next year.

2) The AF on the 5DS R is very good. I think they would simply need to employ the AF that is already utilized on the 1DX II and it would be even better.

3) I agree. It seems that Canon doesn't want to offer this option. I can't understand why. With their new chip technology, their incredible lens selection, and resources as a market leader, they could excel. For decades, Canon has sold its brand as "Wildlife As Canon Sees It." I would think they would want to be the leader here, yet they seem to be conceding that ground to Nikon. When—not if—Sony completes its supertelephoto lens offerings, cameras like the A9 and probably the expected new A7RIII will most likely also be other compelling choices for wildlife photographers.

 

[Sharlin]

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.

I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

The thing with the 5Ds is that basically any nontrivial increase of resolution and fps makes the throughput jump to levels totally unprecedented in the Canon world. I tried a few different values and at 60Mpix, only a really modest increase to 5.5fps made much sense given the trends. Of course it might be that this time Canon will surprise all of us, but that would be, as I said, totally unprecedented. (I also plotted my guesses for the 7D3 and the 90D: 24Mpix*12fps and 28Mpix*8fps respectively. Full data available here.)

 

[Mikehit]

A few thoughts:

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

2) I keep hearing the 5DS AF needs to be improved on this thread, and I'll continue to ask how a system largely identical to the 1DX1 / 5D3 is letting photographers down. I'm not saying you're incorrect here -- I'm looking for what's missing from your perspective. Do you want more points, better spread across the frame, better tracking, etc? (Again, I'm not dismissing your point -- I want to understand the deficiency better.)

3) Canon either cannot or doesn't want to offer a high MP / relatively high FPS instrument. I personally think they want to offer an all-around FF option (5D4) and they want high res options (5DS/R). But I think the real gap here was the 5D4 clocking in at only 7 fps. 50 x 5 isn't the hole in Canon's portfolio right now, 30 x 7 is. I still cannot comprehend why Canon thinks its all-around FF primary rig can stand out at just 2 fps faster than a high res rig, and only 0.5 fps faster than the enthusiast model. We have speculated our pants off about this, but it would appear that either Canon has data that says that fps isn't the biggest driver in this class of camera, or that they have data saying there is an inflection point where people get a 5D4 instead of a 1DX2. We may never know.

- A

When it comes discussion like this, people don't think about how a camera does or does not meet their needs because what they want to see is a spec sheet that is competitive with the competition.

Even in this thread people have spoken about 'being competitive' as if merely matching the opposition is enough. On the 5DIV and 6DII threads how many times did we read "I don't use video myself but they have to include 4k". It almost becomes meaningless.
Canon has always done what Canon does, yet people stay with them. Mixed messages or what?

 

[ahsanford]

1) Since when is the 5DS the first choice for wildlifers?! It was billed as a tripod/studio/landscape/product workhorse, not a higher ISO + higher FPS instrument. I appreciate the opportunity for added detail or the option to crop, but there is no free lunch with a 50 MP rig. Even with dual DIGIC, the throughput can only be so high.

I feel same as I said before for the D810 -- it was no wildlife camera. You might reel in great shots with it, but at 5 fps in FF, you will miss moments. But I'm seeing a trend here with both the D810 and D850 being referenced: it appears you value detail over FPS disproportionately to most wildlifers I've corresponded with. Most of them want detail of course, but value cleaner high ISO and higher FPS.

So your 'grass is greener' with the D850 comments make perfect sense for your needs. Thanks for clarifying.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

I think the 5D4 suffers from only having a single DIGIC 6+. Still, its throughput is actually pretty much in line with historical trends. If anything, it's the x0D series that's falling behind a bit.

Lovely chart -- thank you and bookmarked.

Yes, the 5D# gets one top-line DIGIC while the 7D# line and 5DS line -- two completely different animals at different price points -- warrant two. I have ranted about this many a time.

"The 7D line needs to burn through files to keep up with that shutter/mirror box, so it must get two!"

"But the 5DS can't just get one, it would only shoot 2-3 fps in that case. That's too slow!"

Yet the 5D line isn't afforded the same courtesy and the 5D4 now sits...

(only) 2.0 fps ahead of a high res behemoth in the 5DS
(only) 0.5 fps ahead of a $2k enthusiast FF rig
2.0 fps behind a direct competitor... who is moving 50% more pixels to boot
7-9 fps behind the next option up the FF chain

Surely, a 30 x 9 product -- likely requiring another chip -- would have better cemented the longer-term value of the 5D4 to the market and better positioned it vs. the 6D2 and 5DS. I still don't see that as a thread to 1DX2 sales.

But this is a 5DS thread. I'll rant no longer.

- A