DPReview: Canon EOS R vs Nikon Z 6 vs Sony a7 III, which is best?

In a time where Consumer Reports rates the Toyota Tacoma "Dont Buy" yet it's the best selling midsize pickup; I do wonder if DPR has much influence over anything.

Its hard to not be just a bit disappointed with the EOS R body given how stellar the lenses are out of the gate. Who didnt believe that Canon finally had an answer to BSI, 4K, and IBIS so long after the 5D Mk4 was released? Just what is the EOS R supposed to accomplish in the next 2-3 years? And was it worth stealing the limelight from Nikon for what many feel is a 6/7ths finished product? Here's hoping the firmware update is at least spicy.
 
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4fun

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Taking this a bit out of context, I find it interesting that Sony's A7 series isn't compared to their SLT line more often and criticized for things like having only a tilt screen and the poor adapter options for SLT users looking to go E-mount. Issues that were fine for the first generation, that should have been dealt with for the second generation and are just ridiculous for the third generation. It's usually just brushed over and disregarded. Meanwhile, the competition seems to actually have given these things some thought, offering an experience that at least seems to be relatively close to what their DSLRs offer.

You may not be aware of it, but Sony adapters for legacy A-mount lenses (DSLR/SLT) have been available for a long time. Actually 2 different adapter models, one even offers detached Phase-AF with a (fixed) mirror. Depending on user preferences and their lenses.
Sony LA-EA3 regular mount adapter without mirror, available since 2013
Sony LA-EA4 with Phase-AF and translucent mirror, https://www.sony.com/electronics/converters-mount-adapters/la-ea4
Even before that Sony offered 2 predeccesors - models EA1 and EA2, originally introduced with NEX / E-mount cameras.
Really no issue.
 
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You may not be aware of it, but Sony adapters for legacy A-mount lenses (DSLR/SLT) have been available for a long time. Actually 2 different adapter models, one even offers detached Phase-AF with a (fixed) mirror. Depending on user preferences and their lenses.
Sony LA-EA3 regular mount adapter without mirror, available since 2013
Sony LA-EA4 with Phase-AF and translucent mirror, https://www.sony.com/electronics/converters-mount-adapters/la-ea4
Even before that Sony offered 2 predeccesors - models EA1 and EA2, originally introduced with NEX / E-mount cameras.
Really no issue.

Oh, I am very aware of their existence. But they're not good enough. Well, the LA-EA3 is if you have SSM lenses but Sony never went SSM with their entire lens lineup. And the LA-EA4 shares its AF module with an entry-level APS-C model as far as I can tell. At the very least, they could pull the AF from the A77ii. Better yet, why not pull the AF module from the A99ii? Or leave it to the on-sensor focus points now that they have that in all their FF models? Remove the mirror, keep the motor, make use of the OSPDAF.
 
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LDS

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not in the Europe I live in.

EOS R generally € 2899 - body only. best deal from reputable dealers 2699.
Sony A7 III - € 2244 and up [from non-fly-by night-scammers]

As I can see on Amazon Italy and Germany, the R body + EF adapter is about 2500 euro and the A7III 2250. Prices can vary depending on local VAT - which usually in Europe is included in consumer prices.
 
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Apologies, Ms. Not-Ace-Flibble. Or maybe your implication was that it's actually Dr. Not-Ace-Flibble, in which case I'll withdraw my apology due to the pretentiousness of that implication.

That aside, I agree that there is no evidence of collusion (to choose a term from the currently popular vernacular) between DPR and Sony. But one has only to read their articles to see the evident bias against Canon. Things like stating Canon's automatic AF point selection was not performing properly, when in fact in their hands it was performing exactly as the manual states it will (they were merely unaware of the designed/intended behavior). Or bashing servo AF performance with the system set to spot AF (something the manual specifically recommends against). I suppose you could argue that's not bias, but in that case I guess you believe it's acceptable for reviewers to either be technically incompetent or too lazy to RTFM. Either way, it means DPR's reviews aren't worth the photons used to display them.

Why would DPR be biased? Well, retailers seem to think margin is important, and we all know that Jeff likes making money ( for anyone missing the reference, that's Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, which owns DPR). I've spoken with several retailers (owners) over the years, and have consistently been told that Canon shorts them on margins compared to other manufacturers, claiming that the volume of their very popular cameras should more than make up for it. Obviously, I can't say with certainty that is the reason for the bias, but it's a plausible explanation.

Guys and gals.. DPR is simply another mainstream news outlet among many. The fact is, they aren't going away anytime soon, and none of us have any real capacity to change their biases (if any). The fact is, DPR is a mainstream outlet, just like CNN, Fox News, etc. and they all carry their own biases be it right wing, left wing or chicken wings. The fact that this comparison review has incited 5 pages of posts, myself included, means they've done well in their mission to drive clicks and revenue. Sure, there are many independent reviewers out there, but none of them have the same exposure or resources DPR commands. We can have our own chance at changing that dialog, when we have command of a media empire that can be its direct competitor. Short of that, we just have to accept what is out there and make our own choices within.

I do commend Sony's effort though as it somewhat parallels the many entrepreneurs that try and fail multiple times to make some headway in whatever endeavors they seek. Sure, there are rough edges, but look where they are today. Maybe they aren't the market share behemoth among its peers, but at the very least they inspire what can be done by trying hard persistently in a crowded market. That's partially why they have become the press release darling these days. Is it sustainable? Nobody really knows at this point, but I've created some great content on Sony these days, and I'm not missing a thing yet on the other side of the fence.

These are creative tools and not dishwashers or coffee makers. Perceived ergonomics, market share and pro support don't exactly expand a products creative ability YMMV. Purposeful product segmentation or "crippling" as people endearingly call it, leaves a bad taste in people's mouth. I think generally speaking the EOS R wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms, and Canon probably does deserve to be in 3rd place at this point in time in the particular review.

But I think the release of $3k and $4k lenses probably means it was simply a rushed product in response to the competition and that it will be followed up with a proper response. When they do, I wouldn't be against jumping back to Canon.
 
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4fun

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Oh, I am very aware of their existence. But they're not good enough. Well, the LA-EA3 is if you have SSM lenses but Sony never went SSM with their entire lens lineup. And the LA-EA4 shares its AF module with an entry-level APS-C model as far as I can tell. At the very least, they could pull the AF from the A77ii. Better yet, why not pull the AF module from the A99ii? Or leave it to the on-sensor focus points now that they have that in all their FF models? Remove the mirror, keep the motor, make use of the OSPDAF.

Sony has the same backwards lens compatibility issues as Nikon: many generations of old lenses with different AF drives, including many "screwdriver" type plus mechanical shenanigans like aperture rings. Given the burden of that legacy and the much smaller installed base of A-mount lenses (compared to Nikon F or Canon EF), I think Sony took quite good care of their "legacy" customers. Definitely well enough to not deserve a lot of criticism in this regard.

Of course things are a lot easier over at Canon, thanks to their bold and unpopular move to a fully electric lens mount back in 1987. As I have stated many times already. Extra plus was their excellent idea to put a control ring or filters into the adapters.
 
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Guys and gals.. DPR is simply another mainstream news outlet among many. The fact is, they aren't going away anytime soon, and none of us have any real capacity to change their biases (if any). The fact is, DPR is a mainstream outlet, just like CNN, Fox News, etc. and they all carry their own biases be it right wing, left wing or chicken wings. The fact that this comparison review has incited 5 pages of posts, myself included, means they've done well in their mission to drive clicks and revenue. Sure, there are many independent reviewers out there, but none of them have the same exposure or resources DPR commands. We can have our own chance at changing that dialog, when we have command of a media empire that can be its direct competitor. Short of that, we just have to accept what is out there and make our own choices within.

I do commend Sony's effort though as it somewhat parallels the many entrepreneurs that try and fail multiple times to make some headway in whatever endeavors they seek. Sure, there are rough edges, but look where they are today. Maybe they aren't the market share behemoth among its peers, but at the very least they inspire what can be done by trying hard persistently in a crowded market. That's partially why they have become the press release darling these days. Is it sustainable? Nobody really knows at this point, but I've created some great content on Sony these days, and I'm not missing a thing yet on the other side of the fence.

These are creative tools and not dishwashers or coffee makers. Perceived ergonomics, market share and pro support don't exactly expand a products creative ability YMMV. Purposeful product segmentation or "crippling" as people endearingly call it, leaves a bad taste in people's mouth. I think generally speaking the EOS R wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms, and Canon probably does deserve to be in 3rd place at this point in time in the particular review.

But I think the release of $3k and $4k lenses probably means it was simply a rushed product in response to the competition and that it will be followed up with a proper response. When they do, I wouldn't be against jumping back to Canon.

DPR is entitled to their opinions, just like people in a public forum can post their's, don't think anyone disagrees that DPR has some visibility, but I stopped reading their site a long time ago so I guess it has zero visibility for me. You've posted your opinion on Sony, I'll post mine. I like Sony in that they have created a 3-horse race in the APS-C and FF market. More competition is better. What I don't like, is how Sony is going about it, including DPR (DPR's fixation on dynamic range, for example, borders on a fetish). It's hard to believe, for example, the anti-Canon vitriol and postings are purely from independent users. I say that, not just from how aggressive the pro-Sony comments are in Canon forums (I had a good chuckle from the third post on this thread, hope my comment is not "illegal"), but also the nature of the comments themselves - most lack real substance from those claiming to have truly tried both systems. If you read comments from honest people that have tried both systems, they can tell you that both sides have pros and cons, and how big those pros and cons are, depends on priorities.

Canon's priority is taking consistent quality shots and useability. This is shown in the Canon R's features. It has been commented on many times that the Canon R + RF 50 f/1.2 has an incredibly accurate auto-focus, no easy feat considering the large aperture. This feature alone is probably the most important, hardest to test in varying circumstances, and is usually glossed over with the R. Here is an example of a pro who used a Sony A7R2 but got tired of the missed autofocus, yes I know we're on the A7R3 now, but the point is, don't just go by the number of auto-focus points and assume a mirrorless will nail it every time: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59526785). Google "Sony dust sensor issue" to see how pervasive it is. Who cares about IQ if you're constantly fighting image spots? The R's dust sensor shutter is a *game changer*, but again is glossed over by DPR and Sony fans. How about Canon's anti-flicker technology? Consistent exposure under artificial light, kinda important, kinda game changing, kinda not even tested or even mentioned on DPR. Question - who doesn't shoot under artificial light often? Doesn't matter if fluorescent or LED or other type of bulb, my 5d4's anti-flicker detection goes off all the time, and it was only TDP that called out Sony's A7 3's anti-flicker as completely ineffective: https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Sony-a7R-III.aspx Canon's build quality is another area that I like over Sony's. Most Canon cameras are made in Japan. Sony is made in Thailand. Why should you care? Because when designers, engineers, and the factory that actually make the cameras/lenses are near, there is a tighter synergy of communication and quality control. It might not be the most economical from a labor and operation cost perspective (most 3rd world countries have more lax environment controls, resulting in cheaper operating costs), but it's something only Canon has done and paid for to ensure the highest quality (most Nikon's are made in China and Thailand). I haven't even gone into the industry-best touchscreen (kinda important), industry-best DPAF, and ergonomics (sorry this area is not subjective with fast lens, it's a real issue on Sony's).

There are more reasons I would choose a Canon R over anything from Sony and Nikon. If someone gifted me a Sony A7R3 or A9, I would ask permission to sell it and get a Canon R. Anytime. Just my opinion.
 
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But I think the release of $3k and $4k lenses probably means it was simply a rushed product in response to the competition and that it will be followed up with a proper response.
Why does the concurrent launch of a set of excellent, high end lenses suggest the body was rushed to market? There seems to be a rather large hole in your logic.
 
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4fun

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hehe. :)

i think most likely explanation is "NO RUSH, but DELAY" ...

Canon wanted to launch 2 EOS R bodies - just like Nikon did. one lower end, one higher end, but did not manage to get the higher-specced model ready on time.

So they just launched the UN-RUSHED, duly marketing-nerfed, pedestrian EOS R ("mirrorfree 6D IIII") along with the UN-RUSHED RF lenses. half of the lenses are simply more expensive but not really better than their EF counterparts, the other half are very expensive, innovative Canon show off fancies. :)

this causes me and many others to not to RUSH and buy, but to RELAX and DELAY purchase ... :)
 
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Why does the concurrent launch of a set of excellent, high end lenses suggest the body was rushed to market? There seems to be a rather large hole in your logic.

How is this logic flawed? Canon did in fact release a few excellent RF lenses and as a result are commanding a premium. The teardown shows they've gone through extensive lengths to modernize their RF lenses with completely new mech/elec designs vs current EF lenses. Lke the teardown says, the lenses were NOT whipped up in the last year. That I get.

The disconnect I feel is with the EOS R body. Like others have mentioned, they probably had 2 on track for release, but couldn't push out the flagship in time, so the EOS R became their launch vehicle. I think that approach probably makes sense, as they can see how the EOS R goes, and tweak the EOS Rs from there. They can even throw in IBIS in there based on recent rumored rumblings. The teardown shows the EOS R doesn't have any better weather sealing that its competitors and equal build quality to Sony. Dustin's review praises a number of things, but also recognizes that it has some ergonomic contradictions, uncharacteristic of Canon.

You can't concurrently launch a new lens mount and lenses without an accompanying body, can you? Canon must have expected that they would receive some media backlash for this release, but coffers in the boardroom probably thought that since we already have 50% of the market, and any FF MILC release would take steam away their FF MILC competitors, they decided to just launch.

That's great for Canon's bottom line, but I'm not sure how that benefits the consumer.
 
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How is this logic flawed? Canon did in fact release a few excellent RF lenses and as a result are commanding a premium. The teardown shows they've gone through extensive lengths to modernize their RF lenses with completely new mech/elec designs vs current EF lenses. Lke the teardown says, the lenses were NOT whipped up in the last year. That I get.

I expect the same is true for an all new body. You can’t whip up a mass production ready complex electromechanical box in a year. They likely started work on the camera and its lenses at the same time.
 
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How is this logic flawed? Canon did in fact release a few excellent RF lenses and as a result are commanding a premium. The teardown shows they've gone through extensive lengths to modernize their RF lenses with completely new mech/elec designs vs current EF lenses. Lke the teardown says, the lenses were NOT whipped up in the last year. That I get.

The disconnect I feel is with the EOS R body. Like others have mentioned, they probably had 2 on track for release, but couldn't push out the flagship in time, so the EOS R became their launch vehicle. I think that approach probably makes sense, as they can see how the EOS R goes, and tweak the EOS Rs from there. They can even throw in IBIS in there based on recent rumored rumblings. The teardown shows the EOS R doesn't have any better weather sealing that its competitors and equal build quality to Sony. Dustin's review praises a number of things, but also recognizes that it has some ergonomic contradictions, uncharacteristic of Canon.

You can't concurrently launch a new lens mount and lenses without an accompanying body, can you? Canon must have expected that they would receive some media backlash for this release, but coffers in the boardroom probably thought that since we already have 50% of the market, and any FF MILC release would take steam away their FF MILC competitors, they decided to just launch.

That's great for Canon's bottom line, but I'm not sure how that benefits the consumer.

I'm a bit more pessimistic on the Canon bodies on this one. Didn't the initial rumors indicate two R bodies at launch instead of just one (I honestly don't remember)? If so, I think Canon was surprised by Nikon's Zs that included IBIS and improved video features. I'm hypothesizing that Canon had a higher model than the R but that it really fell flat compared to the specs of the Z7, so they only launched the lower model. Canon might have had several prototypes and I'm guessing they had to backtrack on the higher model to deliver something better. Maybe it was IBIS, frame rate, video and/or something else. The whole product cycle takes years, but it's possible to change it in less than one if other prototypes already had done the heavy engineering. This is what a 5DSR replacement in mirrorless looks like to me -- something to compete against the Z7 and the A7R3, and for it to come out less than a year after the R seems strange to me, especially when premium lenses (RF50 and RF28-70) were launched with the R. Yes, those lenses are fantastic on the R but they are mismatched. The R is more suitable to the RF35 or to the types of lenses Nikon released. It would have made more sense if Canon had launched with 2 bodies (R and something higher than that) with the 4 lenses...
 
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Nelu

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That is quite an eye-opening post from an educated pro user, on dpreview!...
I'm surprise to see that almost no one mentions one of the biggest EOS R advantages: focusing at wide-open aperture.

Notice the difference in his comments versus most others that bash Canon with very little substance. It's obvious that both Sung Park (the OP in that thread, sungparkphotography.com) and Jeff from gr8photography.com are pro's that have tried both systems extensively, they find pros and cons in both, not the lopsided view that DPR preaches.
 
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Just my opinion, of course, but the anti-Canon bias will no doubt hurt Canon's bottom line, and thus hurt all the Canon users - at least in the short term. If two card slots makes up for lousy ergonomics, then I guess Sony is best. If IBIS makes up for sub-par color, then I guess Sony is best.

Dustin Abbot has a nice review, not sure if it has been linked in a thread or not:

https://dustinabbott.net/2018/12/canon-eos-r-review/

In it, he mentions some things I agree totally with:

"First of all, it feels fantastic in the hand. The grip is far and away the best that I’ve encountered so far on a mirrorless body, and I think Canon has the right idea about the size and form factor of this camera." And, "What’s also worth noting is that the design allows for adequate room for one’s knuckles between lenses and the grip – something that the a7R3 often cannot say."

Another aspect where Dustin finds Canon in the lead: "The EOS R has Canon’s fully articulating screen, which will undoubtedly make this camera a popular choice with vloggers and those that want a simple monitoring solution when facing the camera. The screen can be manipulated into a number of positions, and I find Canon’s articulating screens very useful. It is made further useful by the fact that Canon makes the best camera touchscreens in the business."

Another area that Canon is best: "If you look at the front of the camera you will notice a couple of things, including one of Canon’s most clever innovations on the EOS R. It is a shield that comes down in front of the sensor to keep dust off it when changing lenses. This purpose is served (in an inferior way) by the mirror assembly on DSLRs, but this is a cleaner solution. This has been an area of intense vulnerability for my Sony a7R3, which is seemingly in constant need of cleaning."

About the EVF: "The viewfinder on the EOS R is excellent. It has the higher 3.69 million dot resolution (like the Sony a7R3 and superior to the a73). It is clean and natural looking and a joy to use. I find the higher resolution particularly useful when magnifying an image to manually focus."

I've had a chance to look through the EVF of the 3 mentioned cameras and find the Canon to be noticeably better.

Dustin does consider the lack of IBIS and the lack of a 2nd card slot to be a considerable negative. Like all fair reviewers, he does mention the good and the bad. But in some respects the Canon is industry leading. And - as in all things about specs - each user will have priorities, including specs that are absolutely necessary and others that are completely non needed. I would argue that DPR puts far more emphasis on specs that are considered important or necessary by a minority of users (IBIS, 2 card slots) and puts little emphasis on things that are important to far more photographers (ergonomics, color).

As in all things, each person should base their opinion on actual experience if possible. The popularity of these types of sites gives them far too much power in the industry in my opinion. That alone should make them suspect - even if their biases are only subconscious.

Some good points, but I would say "sub-par color" is an old criticism that is not valid now. I shoot 5d4 primarily and Sony a6500, in low difficult light and certainly much easier to get to good color with the Canon. In looking at DPR's image comparitor you can see how bad the Sony A7II color is, but the A7III is very different, rivaling and maybe passing the 5d4, less yellow bias in skin tones, very accurate on darker skin. I think Sony fixed that. Have to see what Canon's next mirrorless does.
 
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A camera preferences, or which is better, is a combination of many things, for example, you can have a wonderful sensor, but if the lenses don't "give it" than what good the camera as an over all? if the AF is not as accurate, what the high MP will give in benefit? Another matter is how easy is to control the camera, how many AF points you have, what kind (and how they work) white balance you have, and we can go asking questions of that sort forever. However, in most cases, it depends on the photographer, for a camera is only a tool to take pictures. So? go and take pictures, enjoy photography and stop comparing "who has a bigger one"...
 
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Canon's priority is taking consistent quality shots and useability. This is shown in the Canon R's features. It has been commented on many times that the Canon R + RF 50 f/1.2 has an incredibly accurate auto-focus, no easy feat considering the large aperture. This feature alone is probably the most important, hardest to test in varying circumstances, and is usually glossed over with the R.

Sorry, but that's just not true. It may not be worse than a 5D was with an EF 50/1.2 (but at least one can try and make a consistently repeatable technique with that instead of relying on the camera altogether)
A lot of time it catches the face, or the wrong eye, or even missing focus completely in some cases. We need to see if the promised firmware update with the continous Eye AF fixes that to some degree. But right now, consistently good AF is not its strong suit either with the EF/RF 50/1.2 (they focus the same way, except the RF lens does not have the focus shift problem) or the 28-70/2.
 
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