DPReview Interview With Canon Execs, \

[Orangutan]

But given the position of the M50 in the lineup, we can’t include all of the features available in a product like the 5D IV.

If they had asked anyone outside of Canon Inc., they would have know that the issue with 4k and DPAF isn't about the choice between the M50 and the 5D4. It's about the M50 and a Panasonic or Fujifilm or Olympus, or even a Sony.

Or maybe it's about processing power. 4k takes a lot. DPAF must take some; maybe there's just not enough.

You won't win even one buyer of a 5D4 by crippling

Of course, they're not interested in "one buyer," they're interested in market share. Looking at sales number for the last one or two decades, they seem to know how to do that quite well.

So, they can listen to the market analysts who have steered them right for decades, or they can listen to some guy making his first post on an Internet forum.

 

[ranonar]

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

When a market collapse into a niche, like the sales of DSLRs since smartphones cams get better and better, you'll have the edge to argue with an increase of market share? Please praise the leader of the dot matrix printer market.

 

[neuroanatomist]

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

When a market collapse into a niche, like the sales of DSLRs since smartphones cams get better and better, you'll have the edge to argue with an increase of market share? Please praise the leader of the dot matrix printer market.

So all those other manufacturers you mentioned —Panasonic or Fujifilm or Olympus, Sony— they are immune to the impact of smartphones, but Canon is not?

Yes, the industry is under pressure, and the ILC market has contracted significantly (although it does seem to be leveling off). But the point is, within that contracting market, Canon is doing better than everyone else. So your claim that, "Canon is lost with this snotty attitude," is baseless.

You're welcome to make another attempt to justify your bogus statement, but I doubt you'll have any better luck.

 

[Orangutan]

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

When a market collapse into a niche, like the sales of DSLRs since smartphones cams get better and better, you'll have the edge to argue with an increase of market share? Please praise the leader of the dot matrix printer market.

Ah, I see: you're looking out to the future several years. Here's your mistake: transitions between technologies are weird times. During the transition the old tech may not have completely eclipsed the new. This was true even with old "pin printers:" early laser printers were very expensive both to buy and maintain. Early inkjet printers smeared and stained, and were fiddly. It took several years for laser and inkjet to supplant pin printers. Some printing is still done by impact printers; e.g. NCR forms.

Your idea that mirrorless will take over is probably correct, but the path to that transition is not at all clear, and will depend on how the technologies evolve, and how they're received by the market. Please go back and review the very educational episode of South Park featuring the underpants gnomes.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Ah, I see: you're looking out to the future several years.

No, he/she is just moving the goalposts. The initial argument was that the M50 wasn't competing with the 5DIV (which makes perfect sense), and that it can't compete well against Panasonic, Fuji, Olympus or Sony (which I suspect time will prove wrong).

I trust that Canon has a plan for Step 2.

 

[Orangutan]

Ah, I see: you're looking out to the future several years.

No, he/she is just moving the goalposts. The initial argument was that the M50 wasn't competing with the 5DIV (which makes perfect sense), and that it can't compete well against Panasonic, Fuji, Olympus or Sony (which I suspect time will prove wrong).

I suspect ranonar wasn't entirely clear what he/she was saying.

I trust that Canon has a plan for Step 2.

They have for decades, it's a safe bet they'll continue.

 

[stevelee]

I have read through all of the discussion on this thread, and I've tried to make sense of it. The main conclusion I have reached is that I must be an idiot. I guess there are worse ways to waste one's time.

Apparently people have quit buying Canon cameras even as its market share has increased because the market has collapsed due to smart phones. The few who are left are switching to Sony cameras. Canon continues to accelerate both trends because they refuse to add more high-end chips to lower priced cameras to match the specs of their flagship lines at a quarter the price. People differ over whether that means Canon is evil or is just prudent in business and understanding of technology.

 

[Sporgon]

People differ over whether that means Canon is evil or is just prudent in business and understanding of technology.

You have to be quasi-evil to be prudent in business

 

[kkamena]

the thing is none of the kit decisions are a perfect fit from a design POV. the 6D is a compact FF DSLR but no IBIS so you still need to buy lenses with OS making the kit bulky. if I try to build my kit around lighter lenses (i.e. f/4 lenses) the IQ is low or I have to use prime lenses. again the IQ suffers.
OR I enjoy the oldschool lenses. that too sucks if I use the focusing screens meant for manual focus lenses as the viewfinder is too small and gets too dark(if you put a f/4 lens).

I mean I love my 50mm f/1.8 STM but only because its small.
do you feel the same way?

I for one am waiting until september (6 months post A7iii launch) before deciding to jump ship or not.
atlease I have the ability to use manual focus lenses.

Your IQ suffers using primes??????? or is this a my $100 lens is not as good as a $2,000 lens augment?
Please switch to Sony you are their customer base.

 

[stevelee]

People differ over whether that means Canon is evil or is just prudent in business and understanding of technology.

You have to be quasi-evil to be prudent in business

I'm not quite that cynical, but you have a point.

I don't see anything dishonest or deceptive about saying for X amount of money you can have a camera that does some stuff, and for more money you can get one that does more stuff and some of the same stuff better. I don't believe in the chip fairy who gives good little boys and girls more processing power for free. But those who do are entitled to their opinions.

 

[Talys]

the thing is none of the kit decisions are a perfect fit from a design POV. the 6D is a compact FF DSLR but no IBIS so you still need to buy lenses with OS making the kit bulky. if I try to build my kit around lighter lenses (i.e. f/4 lenses) the IQ is low or I have to use prime lenses. again the IQ suffers.
OR I enjoy the oldschool lenses. that too sucks if I use the focusing screens meant for manual focus lenses as the viewfinder is too small and gets too dark(if you put a f/4 lens).

I mean I love my 50mm f/1.8 STM but only because its small.
do you feel the same way?

I for one am waiting until september (6 months post A7iii launch) before deciding to jump ship or not.
atlease I have the ability to use manual focus lenses.

There's nothing wrong with building a kit around f/4's instead of 2.8's. I don't really know what you're talking about with 50mm/1.8.

I don't love the 50mm/1.8 because it's small -- I love it because it's a great-performing hobbyist lens that is super cheap.

IBIS has not made any GMaster lenses less bulky, because it's not a replacement for in-lens optical stabilization. Guess what, most GM lenses have optical stabilization and are as bulky as DSLR counterparts. That's because IBIS isn't as effective.

But you're conflating systems and issues that it's dizzying, because if you're using a Sony, the viewfinder going dark with an f/4 is not an issue. The viewfinder on an EVF will always be bright, as long as there is some light and you have exposure set correctly, whether you're using a manual focus lens or not.

On the other hand, if you love old, manual focus lenses, you're probably not going to love a system where every native lens is focus by wire.

 

[Tugela]

Simple, the processor lacks the computational power to do it all.

You are forgetting that the higher end DSLRs have an extra processor dedicated to focusing and exposure. The 5D4 uses a Digic 6+ for image processing, but it also has a Digic 6 solely for use with focusing and exposure. Likewise the 1D cameras have three processors, dual current model processors for image processing and an older model processor for focusing/exposure/tracking as part of the focusing system. That is why it can handle DPAF and 4K at the same time. The M50 only has one processor, which has to do everything, but it can't do that all and still stay in it's thermal envelope. Hence no DPAF and 4K. The computational demands are too great. That is the technical limitation Canon is talking about. Sure, they could make a camera that could do both, simply by adding a extra processor, but that would greatly increase the cost and complexity of the camera, which in turn would result in it being priced out of the target market.

Unless you think the Canon exec is lying, in which case I can't help you.

I'm not forgetting anything. In fact, I recently listed the number and function of processors in a thread on M50.

https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34584.msg710095#msg710095

You might want to review that information, so you can properly understand the function(s) of each processor. Of relevance here is that in the 5DIV, the Digic 6 is dedicated to processing data from the metering sensor. Those data are handed off to the Digic 6+, which handles AF (along with image/video processing).

The M50 has Digic 8, two generations above Digic 6/6+.

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate your ineptitude when it comes to knowledge of Canon's processors, among other things.

Things such as reading comprehension, clearly, since you state that Canon referenced a technical limitation for the lack of DPAF + 4K in the M50, when they stated no such thing.

The primary upgrades in the Digic 7 and 8 are the image processing capabilities (such as the hardware encoders). The computational capabilities are pretty much the same, which means that an extra processor is still required to handle the extra workload associated with managing PDAF when the processor is being stressed with a 4K datastream.

The Canon guy was clearly talking about what was technically possible and what was practical for the particular market space the M50 was aimed at.

The idea that Canon are delibrately making their consumer products inferior to the competition so as to not compete with the professional market (which has completely different demands regarding build quality and professional specifications) is beyond rediculous.

Cameras like the M50 have lower capabilites and specs compared to high end products because THEY ARE MISSING A WHOLE LOT OF ELCTRONICS SUCH AS SUPPORTING CHIPS, EXTRA MEMORY, FASTER CONTROLLERS ETC, all of which COST MONEY THAT JACKS UP THE PRICE OF THE PRODUCT, PUTTING IT OUT OF THE PRICE RANGE OF THE TARGET MARKET.

FFS, do you know nothing about product development and market targeting? The M50 is a stripped down product that lacks a lot of the electronic functionality that higher end products have, SO OBVIOUSLY IT CANT DO THE SAME DAMNED THING AS THEM!!!!

There is no plot to "artificially segment the market".

 

[neuroanatomist]

Simple, the processor lacks the computational power to do it all.

You are forgetting that the higher end DSLRs have an extra processor dedicated to focusing and exposure. The 5D4 uses a Digic 6+ for image processing, but it also has a Digic 6 solely for use with focusing and exposure. Likewise the 1D cameras have three processors, dual current model processors for image processing and an older model processor for focusing/exposure/tracking as part of the focusing system. That is why it can handle DPAF and 4K at the same time. The M50 only has one processor, which has to do everything, but it can't do that all and still stay in it's thermal envelope. Hence no DPAF and 4K. The computational demands are too great. That is the technical limitation Canon is talking about. Sure, they could make a camera that could do both, simply by adding a extra processor, but that would greatly increase the cost and complexity of the camera, which in turn would result in it being priced out of the target market.

Unless you think the Canon exec is lying, in which case I can't help you.

I'm not forgetting anything. In fact, I recently listed the number and function of processors in a thread on M50.

https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34584.msg710095#msg710095

You might want to review that information, so you can properly understand the function(s) of each processor. Of relevance here is that in the 5DIV, the Digic 6 is dedicated to processing data from the metering sensor. Those data are handed off to the Digic 6+, which handles AF (along with image/video processing).

The M50 has Digic 8, two generations above Digic 6/6+.

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate your ineptitude when it comes to knowledge of Canon's processors, among other things.

Things such as reading comprehension, clearly, since you state that Canon referenced a technical limitation for the lack of DPAF + 4K in the M50, when they stated no such thing.

The primary upgrades in the Digic 7 and 8 are the image processing capabilities (such as the hardware encoders). The computational capabilities are pretty much the same, which means that an extra processor is still required to handle the extra workload associated with managing PDAF when the processor is being stressed with a 4K datastream.

The Canon guy was clearly talking about what was technically possible and what was practical for the particular market space the M50 was aimed at.

The idea that Canon are delibrately making their consumer products inferior to the competition so as to not compete with the professional market (which has completely different demands regarding build quality and professional specifications) is beyond rediculous.

Cameras like the M50 have lower capabilites and specs compared to high end products because THEY ARE MISSING A WHOLE LOT OF ELCTRONICS SUCH AS SUPPORTING CHIPS, EXTRA MEMORY, FASTER CONTROLLERS ETC, all of which COST MONEY THAT JACKS UP THE PRICE OF THE PRODUCT, PUTTING IT OUT OF THE PRICE RANGE OF THE TARGET MARKET.

FFS, do you know nothing about product development and market targeting? The M50 is a stripped down product that lacks a lot of the electronic functionality that higher end products have, SO OBVIOUSLY IT CANT DO THE SAME DAMNED THING AS THEM!!!!

There is no plot to "artificially segment the market".

There's no need to shout, I can read just fine. It's unfortunate that your inability to substantiate your claims has you so manifestly frustrated, but really that's your problem, not mine.

Your argument hinges upon your contention that Digic 8 cannot support both DPAF and 4K simultaneously, but as usual you provide no evidence to support that contention (and given your multitude of previous technical errors and misconceptions, no one should be inclined to believe you without such evidence). The Canon interviewee clearly stated that DPAF+4K was technically possible, but not appropriate for the market segment of the M50.

As for artificial market segmentation, it's not 'plotting'...it's a standard business practice. Including a feature/function of which a product is capable without added cost of goods is still not free. Testing, documentation and support cost resources and money. The 1D X II does not have in-camera HDR...do you believe it lacks the feature because in-camera HDR exceeds the processing capabilities of the its Dual Digic 6+ processors?

Of course the issue of DPAF+4K isn't about differentiating the M50 from professional dSLRs (I stated that earlier). But the M50 isn't Canon's last MILC, and future entry- and mid-level bodies will need to be differentiated from the M50. These strategies are mapped out years in advance.

Frankly, your lack of technical knowledge, poor comprehension of product development processes, and generally weak business acumen render this discussion essentially pointless. But perhaps we can revisit this issue when a successor to the M5/6 or M100 is announced with DPAF+4K running on its Digic 8 processor.

 

[Ozarker]

the thing is none of the kit decisions are a perfect fit from a design POV. the 6D is a compact FF DSLR but no IBIS so you still need to buy lenses with OS making the kit bulky. if I try to build my kit around lighter lenses (i.e. f/4 lenses) the IQ is low or I have to use prime lenses. again the IQ suffers.
OR I enjoy the oldschool lenses. that too sucks if I use the focusing screens meant for manual focus lenses as the viewfinder is too small and gets too dark(if you put a f/4 lens).

I mean I love my 50mm f/1.8 STM but only because its small.
do you feel the same way?

I for one am waiting until september (6 months post A7iii launch) before deciding to jump ship or not.
atlease I have the ability to use manual focus lenses.

Your IQ suffers using primes??????? or is this a my $100 lens is not as good as a $2,000 lens augment?
Please switch to Sony you are their customer base.

 

[ichiru]

People differ over whether that means Canon is evil or is just prudent in business and understanding of technology.

You have to be quasi-evil to be prudent in business

...well... yeah.... damn it you have good point lol

 

[Talys]

People differ over whether that means Canon is evil or is just prudent in business and understanding of technology.

You have to be quasi-evil to be prudent in business

...well... yeah.... damn it you have good point lol

Not really. The problem is, nobody puts themselves in the shoes of the manufacturer.

Everything that Canon or Sony or Nikon does has inherent risks, and therefore, they need some prospect of profit to justify continued investments. It should be their goal to make hay while it rains -- to maximize their profits when they can -- because at another point in time, it could be tougher, and they may need reserves to though it out and make it through.

It's not like if your favorite company gives you a great price today, you're going to support them with charity when it's a tough year for them.

It's competitive forces and market demand that set the prices. In fact, Canon isn't setting the price and feature set of the M50... you are, in a macro sense. If people don't buy it, the prices will need to come down. If people buy it like crazy, then supply will be constrained, and sometimes, you'll even see price gouging by resellers.

If the market determines that the most it will pay is $750 for a DPAF or hybrid AF 4k consumer camera, one of two things will happen -- someone will make one, or nobody will make one. It just depends on whether, looking at their business as a whole, it makes sense.

Should the company exercise either option, it's not being evil at all. It's just practicing common sense.

 

[ichiru]

You won't win even one buyer of a 5D4 by crippling the M50, 6D2, 7D3, ... but loose buyers on those. Canon is lost with this snotty attitude.

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

Neuroanatomist no one is denying Canon is doing great sales wise. They are definitely doing some things right I mean... yeah that's pretty obvious and nobody here ever argued that. And I would even argue that historically Canon has proven they can pull through a whole lot in the long term. But is it really that hard for you to conceive their business decisions may not ultimately be the best at the present moment?!

I cannot see the future and you can tell me all you want about not caring about my opinion blah blah blah. I respect yours . Meanwhile it is generally accepted in the industry right now that Canon's success in the mirrorless segment is a bit of a surprise given they entered the market relatively late (new camera models and lenses are only accelerating in the last year or so) and play pretty much catch up on most feature sets (refresh rate, autofocus speed, dynamic range, etc, with one of the few exceptions being their absolutely brilliant video dual pixel autofocus). I bet Nikon will make a killing in the mirrorless segment as well when they pull their own act together. And I would even speculate that their success is easy to explain; these two companies (Canikon) have an amazing reputation. Now; you are 100 % allowed to disagree with that next statement but I feel, and I know of countless other people in the photography world that share my opinion, that this reputation and those 'free passes' Canon is getting are eventually going to run out if they keep the same business attitude. Again it's an opinion, shared by many, disagreed by many, including you. I cannot read the future anymore than you but I do wish to express I absolutely love my Canon gear and if I am pissed it's only because I don't understand why 'smaller' brands such as Sony, Nikon, Panasonic, Olympus and Pentax can have all the features I want and Canon can't. I don't doubt they will catch up but they are sooo slow (even Canon reps admitted that in an earlier interview). I have shot Canon for over 12 years. I had digital SLRs when Canon used to have lower noise and better dynamic range than Nikon. Now the roles are reversed and yup I was relieved when the 5DIV came out and then bammm here comes the 6DII with a sensor that is years behind technology wise (again, except for dual pixel AF). Now you're going to say again nobody cares and you are right! Nobody cares about my single opinion (although that is about the sole purpose of a forum on rumors i.e. the discussion of opinions !) but you see it is not a rare opinion, and that's the real issue. You may find many supporters of Canon here on a Canon forum of a Canon website but that is it. The excitement for Canon cameras is being threatened and I fear it may go the same way the iphone did; i.e. staying relevant but being completely overtaken by the competition https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6581377/meeker-2016-ios-android.jpg. Iphones are still amazing phones but in terms of innovation and ability to attract people solely on brand name... it's not what it used to be.

Believe me I hope as much as you that Canon will continue to lead the industry (which is why I am checking this site daily for the last 3 years, lately in particular for a mirrorless Canon camera) but I am a skeptical at the moment and yeah I will be happy to come back when they prove me wrong.

Anyways, no hard feelings man, this forum is about discussions and opinions, I respect yours.

Cheers.

 

[ichiru]

People differ over whether that means Canon is evil or is just prudent in business and understanding of technology.

You have to be quasi-evil to be prudent in business

...well... yeah.... damn it you have good point lol

Not really. The problem is, nobody puts themselves in the shoes of the manufacturer.

Everything that Canon or Sony or Nikon does has inherent risks, and therefore, they need some prospect of profit to justify continued investments. It should be their goal to make hay while it rains -- to maximize their profits when they can -- because at another point in time, it could be tougher, and they may need reserves to though it out and make it through.

It's not like if your favorite company gives you a great price today, you're going to support them with charity when it's a tough year for them.

It's competitive forces and market demand that set the prices. In fact, Canon isn't setting the price and feature set of the M50... you are, in a macro sense. If people don't buy it, the prices will need to come down. If people buy it like crazy, then supply will be constrained, and sometimes, you'll even see price gouging by resellers.

If the market determines that the most it will pay is $750 for a DPAF or hybrid AF 4k consumer camera, one of two things will happen -- someone will make one, or nobody will make one. It just depends on whether, looking at their business as a whole, it makes sense.

Should the company exercise either option, it's not being evil at all. It's just practicing common sense.

True you make a good point about the risk taking. An excellent point actually. But in my limited knowledge of business I do understand that the greatest gains are usually made at considerable risks and vice versa the fewest gains at the fewest risks... again generally speaking. It makes sense that a company the size of Canon would not want to risk too much.

... in the meantime, as consumers it's normal to see more excitement for brands that take risks, invest a ton in R&D, put out products that we can't even understand how they make a profit given just how loaded they are with features, etc. Of course there are arguments towards other brands too but I am just trying to make a point...


By the way, I don't know if anybody here has ever checked it but it's shocking how much more traffic sony alpha rumors . com gets vs canonrumors.com. Yup it's meaningless in terms of sales but it does make it seem as though Sony cameras generate much more enthusiasm.

 

[Ozarker]

You won't win even one buyer of a 5D4 by crippling the M50, 6D2, 7D3, ... but loose buyers on those. Canon is lost with this snotty attitude.

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

Meanwhile it is generally accepted in the industry right now that Canon's success in the mirrorless segment is a bit of a surprise given they entered the market relatively late...

Generally accepted by who? Who's surprised? What industry? By bloggers and vloggers? That industry? Forum commenters? That industry?

If only stupid Canon had business giants like yourself to steer the ship of industry, they might be #1. :

 

[ichiru]

You won't win even one buyer of a 5D4 by crippling the M50, 6D2, 7D3, ... but loose buyers on those. Canon is lost with this snotty attitude.

If they are so 'lost', please explain how it is that they remain the market leader and are gaining marketshare.

Meanwhile it is generally accepted in the industry right now that Canon's success in the mirrorless segment is a bit of a surprise given they entered the market relatively late...

Generally accepted by who? Who's surprised? What industry? By bloggers and vloggers? That industry? Forum commenters? That industry?

If only stupid Canon had business giants like yourself to steer the ship of industry, they might be #1. :

Well I suppose given your nickname it's not hard to imagine why you don't really pay attention to anything that isn't praising Canon.