EF, RF, Trolls and Children

YuengLinger

EOS 7D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
1,944
34
Southeastern USA
#1
None of the folks who have replied with such anger to speculation regarding the future of EF has adequately explained their anger. The general reply is along the lines of "crazy talk." Fortunately there are patient CR members who clearly and logically explain why they aren't worried, why EF is still good to buy when needed now, and good products to hold for some years. And I do appreciate and thank them! Maybe I did get a little too worried about things happening too fast with the change from EF to RF (yes, I predicted a new mount with an adapter, as did many, many others). But I knew there would be a few more years of EF relevance, just not innovation. I never claimed EF would die a sudden-death, but that it would, upon the release of a new FF mirrorless, become a legacy tech, supported for a time, but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing.

I do not believe RF is a side line or a niche or a one-off or an experiment. I believe Canon is committed to making it part of their flagship pro and prosumer bodies. Wrong or right, people who believe something and explain themselves the best they can, people who have been members here discussing dozens of topics for years...We aren't "trolls." But people who call us such because we've scared the fish swimming in the aquariums of their minds are, well, not very pleasant. Maybe they are just stressed out in this big world of constant change. Who isn't? But if you click "Ignore" because a post has made you think, challenges your own view, wow, how sad that is even for a middle-school kid, much less an adult.
 
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Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,267
258
Canada
#2
My problem was with the claims that EF was dead and how Canon was screwing people....

Obviously, EF continues on..... there are new releases coming....

Also, the introduction of the R mount and the three adapters does not make EF lenses obsolete, it ADDS functionality to a camera/lens combination.....
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,360
399
#3
I never claimed EF would die a sudden-death, but that it would, upon the release of a new FF mirrorless, become a legacy tech, supported for a time, but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing.
I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,360
399
#4
Oh, and incidentally...starting a bunch of topics that are slight variations on the same basic question does start to push into territory that bears a remarkable resemblance to the Ettenmoors.;)
 
Likes: Keith_Reeder

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,074
277
#6
As I have said elsewhere in the last couple of days, people are called trolls only when they repeat the same assertions time and again without ever entering a debate on the points raised and fail (or do not want to ) realise that even for those they insult as being Canon apologists the issue is more about when Canon will introduce the much-sought after features, rather than if.

This is not helped in that people have become, shall we say 'elastic' with their use of the English language and logic and phrase things in inflammatory ways - but when someone responds they get all upset. Product segmentation is no longer a manufacturing and marketing necessity but is 'nerfing' or 'crippling' (yes, even Sony). Not putting in everything from the highest end model without increasing the price is now 'screwing the client'. A new model now makes everything else 'obsolete'. Being second to market is now being on the road to oblivion. I think it simply laziness of thought and then they get annoyed when someone points out the extreme nature of their comments.

Is this unique to Canon forums or do Nikon and Sony have this 'problem' as well? On brief visits over there I have not seen it. When pointing out the fallacy of such comments we often get a backpedalling of Trumpian proportions along the lines of 'well I only want Canon to be the best' as if Canon reads this forum and responds to it. Now that CaNikon (and Panasonic!) have joined the FF mirrorless revolution, only now will we see just how much advantages mirrorless has in the real world instead of one where one company has a product no-one else has. My guess is that, just like the last 10 years, the key buying decisions will not be driven by sensor dynamic range or video quality.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 7D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
1,944
34
Southeastern USA
#7
My problem was with the claims that EF was dead and how Canon was screwing people....

Obviously, EF continues on..... there are new releases coming....

Also, the introduction of the R mount and the three adapters does not make EF lenses obsolete, it ADDS functionality to a camera/lens combination.....
I was never somebody who claimed or even suspected Canon was in any way trying to screw their customers. I did see such claims in different threads, but I never agreed with them. I do believe, from a marketing perspective, that the timing of certain new EF lenses with only nominal updates suggested that Canon was trying to avoid scaring existing EF customers when the new Mount came out. Of course that was a leap of speculation, but it was no claim of some malevolent conspiracy.
 
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YuengLinger

EOS 7D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
1,944
34
Southeastern USA
#8
Oh, and incidentally...starting a bunch of topics that are slight variations on the same basic question does start to push into territory that bears a remarkable resemblance to the Ettenmoors.;)
If three or four topics in a 10-day period, each with different slants, is what you mean buy a bunch, then that is a pretty low standard. And don't forget, those posts were made in the month prior to the announcement of the new RF mount. Sometimes you seem so quick to swat down those of us not gifted with your Superior Intellect that you overlook excitement and genuine concern. ;)

This thread isn't meant as a way for me to air my hurt feelings--I've started it because the word "troll" seems to be getting thrown at people quite a bit more the past few months. (Maybe I'm more sensitive to it.)

As have the words "conspiracy theory," tin-foil hat," "grandiose," and others which don't answer a question or contribute to understanding, but instead are intended to shut down discussions.

My suggestion: If a member is burnt out, weary, bored, or otherwise generally cranky, take a few days off, or at least pass on getting involved in a thread you claim is boring, irrelevant, irritating, etc. :D
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,074
277
#9
This thread isn't meant as a way for me to air my hurt feelings--I've started it because the word "troll" seems to be getting thrown at people quite a bit more the past few months. (Maybe I'm more sensitive to it.)

As have the words "conspiracy theory," tin-foil hat," "grandiose," and others which don't answer a question or contribute to understanding, but instead are intended to shut down discussions.
Do you accept that other people feel the same way when any discussion of why Canon do what they do gets them labelled as 'shills' and canon apologists' - understanding is not the same as complicity? And that such labels are also a way of shutting down debate?
 
Likes: Keith_Reeder

Mt Spokane Photography

Spends too much time on this forum
Mar 25, 2011
14,581
108
#10
There are many people and they all had differing expectations. I think that Canon described the reasons for producing this camera very well. Actually, it would do virtually everything I want, but it may be missing tethering via USB, thats not clear.

Its human nature, and people not having the same viewpoint are not trolls, they are expressing their feelings. Name calling though is a different thing, and calling our members Trolls or other names does not reflect well on the person doing it.

I did not order one because the adapter for EF was not bundled, and I'd order a body only to upgrade my SL-2 and use EF lenses. I'd still have a fairly portable 2nd body that could share my EF lenses, and I like to play with new toys. There was no guarantee of getting a adapter along with the camera when ordering separately, and its not like I actually needed it, so I'll wait for a big discount later next year. (actually, I can get a 7% discount thru my employee discount plan right now).
 
Likes: meywd

Keith_Reeder

No apologies for not suffering fools gladly...
Feb 8, 2014
676
103
58
Blyth, NE England
#11
But people who call us such because we've scared the fish swimming in the aquariums of their minds are, well, not very pleasant.
But people who come out with snarky, smartarsed comments like that are are, right..?

And calling people you're at odds with "children", for no other reason than that you demand them to be at odds with you in a way that you're happy with?

Riiiiight... Glad we got that cleared up.
 

docsmith

EOS Rebel T7i
Sep 17, 2010
748
79
#14
A good rule of thumb...panic is not good. Hysteria, no better.

I suspect this is coming out of threads that I stopped reading, but to take on why I am not doing either regarding RF. Some of my thoughts:
  • RF is likely the future, but Canon needs time to roll out the future. It will take time to announce/release a whole new line up. I expect maybe 4-5 lenses per year over 5 years before slowing down to the typical 2-3 new lenses per year we've seen with EF.
  • Canon will likely focus on lenses where RF has an advantage over EF first. Conventional wisdom is that is wider apertures.
  • Canon has only announced 1 RF lens that would replace one of my current lenses (my Sigma 50A vs the RF 50 1.2).
  • Even Nikon's rollout time table would only replace a 2 of my lenses by 2021.
  • Given all of this, I do not think Canon will have the right RF lenses to replace even the majority of my kit until say 2023 to 2025.
  • I expect the point where RF lenses can replace EF lenses to be the mid-point of the transition. What you are seeing now is the start. So, I expect the midpoint to be 2023-2025.
  • I could shoot pretty much everything I want with my current kit. I am always interested in "better"....but in terms of shots I am missing, really, I am not missing much. So, EF will work for me for the foreseeable future.
My current plan is to get a second or third generation R body to replace my second body. Preferably something with high MP. After that, I will occasionally pick up RF lenses when they offer me something better than my current kit. This will make my conversion somewhat seemless, but I expect it to take a decade.

Final point, people have been talking about mirrorless since what, 2012? Its easily been 5-6 years. Now we have the first body. Even Canon admits it is not "professional." It is very good, targeted between the 6D and 5D series, but there are more features coming.

Panic is not needed. Really, additional patience is. We are at the start, not the end.
 
Likes: YuengLinger

YuengLinger

EOS 7D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
1,944
34
Southeastern USA
#15
But people who come out with snarky, smartarsed comments like that are are, right..?

And calling people you're at odds with "children", for no other reason than that you demand them to be at odds with you in a way that you're happy with?

Riiiiight... Glad we got that cleared up.
Point taken, Keith, about the fish tank remark. But note I am making a general observation suggesting some posters are nervous or easily upset--not attacking a specific individual in reply to a post.

And, absolutely, somebody hitting the Ignore button or screaming "Troll" reflexively is acting childishly.

Why are you so often so angry when you post online? Even your little blurb under your name is a pretty clear indication of your mindset.
 
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takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,437
75
#16
Internet Troll's are at their best when they can Troll and you never know you are trolled.

Often you can lay Troll bait and they will show themselves, but if they are hanging out with other Troll's they will deny being a Troll.

Here is one definition in the urban dictionary:
"A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. "

and another

"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

So if a person meets those definitions I would say they are Trolls, whether they wish to admit it or not.
 

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,437
75
#17
Why are you so often so angry when you post online? Even your little blurb under your name is a pretty clear indication of your mindset.
He may, or may not realize it, but the blurb is actually good Troll bait. A bad Troll will use it to see if they can get a rise from him. A good one might just casually poke at him just to test the statement.
 

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,437
75
#18
I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?
One must respect the master of an art form when he practices, even as the data supports and covers his position so well.

I can not help but think the purchase of my M50 did impact the sales of APC-C DSLR's by one unit. (1)
:)

Are we off topic?
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,267
258
Canada
#19
A good rule of thumb...panic is not good. Hysteria, no better.

I suspect this is coming out of threads that I stopped reading, but to take on why I am not doing either regarding RF. Some of my thoughts:
  • RF is likely the future, but Canon needs time to roll out the future. It will take time to announce/release a whole new line up. I expect maybe 4-5 lenses per year over 5 years before slowing down to the typical 2-3 new lenses per year we've seen with EF.
  • Canon will likely focus on lenses where RF has an advantage over EF first. Conventional wisdom is that is wider apertures.
  • Canon has only announced 1 RF lens that would replace one of my current lenses (my Sigma 50A vs the RF 50 1.2).
  • Even Nikon's rollout time table would only replace a 2 of my lenses by 2021.
  • Given all of this, I do not think Canon will have the right RF lenses to replace even the majority of my kit until say 2023 to 2025.
  • I expect the point where RF lenses can replace EF lenses to be the mid-point of the transition. What you are seeing now is the start. So, I expect the midpoint to be 2023-2025.
  • I could shoot pretty much everything I want with my current kit. I am always interested in "better"....but in terms of shots I am missing, really, I am not missing much. So, EF will work for me for the foreseeable future.
My current plan is to get a second or third generation R body to replace my second body. Preferably something with high MP. After that, I will occasionally pick up RF lenses when they offer me something better than my current kit. This will make my conversion somewhat seemless, but I expect it to take a decade.

Final point, people have been talking about mirrorless since what, 2012? Its easily been 5-6 years. Now we have the first body. Even Canon admits it is not "professional." It is very good, targeted between the 6D and 5D series, but there are more features coming.

Panic is not needed. Really, additional patience is. We are at the start, not the end.

I agree with you. RF is the future.... However, unlike the FD to EF transition where all your glass became obsolete overnight, this time all your EF glass remains usable, and if you get the adapter with the drop-in filter or extra control ring, your legacy glass is enhanced.

It is going to take a long time before (if ever) Canon stops making EF mount cameras, but I can see the rebel lineup switching over to R mount a lot sooner than the XD series of cameras. As has been said, time will tell what happens, but it isn't going to happen fast...

I'm not going to bite on the R camera, but there will be a higher end successor at some point and I am very curious to see what it brings to the table....
 

YuengLinger

EOS 7D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
1,944
34
Southeastern USA
#20
One must respect the master of an art form when he practices, even as the data supports and covers his position so well.

I can not help but think the purchase of my M50 did impact the sales of APC-C DSLR's by one unit. (1)
:)

Are we off topic?
I never gave the M series much thought, as the bodies + lenses don't seem small enough to warrant having them in addition to my 80D. (By the way, just bought an ef-s 35mm f/2.8 STM IS Macro. Love it! For family and other fun photography...It's sharp enough to do nicely for detail shots too. Works fine for portraits of the kids and friends.)

Personally, I don't think the analogy, comparing the effect of the M series on EF-S bodies, is completely satisfying. EF has been the standard for Canon for over 30 years, the flagship mount, and EF lenses fit fine on EF-S bodies. Many people buying an EF-S body hope someday to move up to full frame. Some just go ahead and buy EF-S lenses, others don't. (I started with the 20D but only own two ef-s lenses, the 24mm pancake and the above mentioned 35mm macro.) No adapter needed when an EF lens is involved.

The big differences between ef-s and ef? Price and size, right? So, for me, the impact of ef-s going away (or being completely adapter dependent), were it to happen, would be minimal. But for somebody with a collection of EF lenses, thinking about what impact current and future RF lenses will have on the value of that collection plays a part in deciding which EF lens to buy or not buy next. Maybe not for every customer, of course, but for some.

The top dSLR's all use EF exclusively. When I think of EF, I think of the best lenses and the best bodies. EF-S is, well, second rate. And I think the M series is a niche for people looking for something relatively compact.

It's easy to say, "M lenses haven't poached EF-S lenses; therefore, RF lenses won't affect sales of EF lenses." But this is not based on facts; it's conjecture.