EF, RF, Trolls and Children

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,442
79
#21
It's easy to say, "M lenses haven't poached EF-S lenses; therefore, RF lenses won't affect sales of EF lenses." But this is not based on facts; it's conjecture.
The opposite is true, it is a fact that the sales of the M have poached at least 1 sell away from EF-S. I am that one.
It is true that when it comes time to buy a new body for certain purposes I may buy an RF over EF.

What is conjecture is the extent the sales will be impacted, either positively, negatively or any overall.

For the foreseeable future I could see myself buying both EF and RF lenses depending on what purpose I had in mind.
 

docsmith

EOS Rebel T7i
Sep 17, 2010
765
92
#23
... if you get the adapter with the drop-in filter or extra control ring, your legacy glass is enhanced./.
And that is the bit that is a real bonus. RF lenses will really need to be better than their EF equivalents. Otherwise, I could see sticking with EF glass and the drop-in filter or control ring. Right now, I often travel with 9 different filters (2 different NDs and CPLs for 3 different thread sizes). Imaging cutting that down to 3 smaller filters.

That is a very real size savings. But get me that higher end R camera first.
 
Likes: YuengLinger

Jack Douglas

https://yourshot.nationalgeographic.com/profile/64
Apr 10, 2013
5,594
135
Alberta, Canada
#25
There certainly are going to be products that will be of interest. The question is, whether they will cause us to open our pocket books.

BTW when someone persists in using a derogatory term, is that not somewhat antagonistic. A word that comes to mind is "mirror slapper". I'm using a "mirror slapper" and I guess the idea is to make me feel lower as a human for continuing to be satisfied with it. What if it was your workplace and you were driving a nice older car and it was being referenced as a clunker? People who make these kinds of comments don't get very high marks from me relative to their IQ.

Jack
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,318
311
Canada
#26
There certainly are going to be products that will be of interest. The question is, whether they will cause us to open our pocket books.

BTW when someone persists in using a derogatory term, is that not somewhat antagonistic. A word that comes to mind is "mirror slapper". I'm using a "mirror slapper" and I guess the idea is to make me feel lower as a human for continuing to be satisfied with it. What if it was your workplace and you were driving a nice older car and it was being referenced as a clunker? People who make these kinds of comments don't get very high marks from me relative to their IQ.

Jack
I drive a "clunker". It still works great and gets me to work and back... and can carry two canoes and gear when I go on trips. No need to upgrade to anything else.... it works, it's paid for, and it does all that I need. Replacing it with something new adds zero useful functionality for me.....

The same with my cameras and lenses.... They are mirror slappers, but they work great! They do what I want, and until something better comes along that adds more functionality (in things that matter to me), I would be stupid to replace them for the sake of having something newer.

Eventually, both my car and my camera will die... then I replace them. Clunkers, mirror slappers.... it just means I didn't waste money....
 

pj1974

EOS Rebel SL2
Oct 18, 2011
571
31
Adelaide, Australia
#27
I agree with you. RF is the future.... However, unlike the FD to EF transition where all your glass became obsolete overnight, this time all your EF glass remains usable, and if you get the adapter with the drop-in filter or extra control ring, your legacy glass is enhanced.

It is going to take a long time before (if ever) Canon stops making EF mount cameras, but I can see the rebel lineup switching over to R mount a lot sooner than the XD series of cameras. As has been said, time will tell what happens, but it isn't going to happen fast...

I'm not going to bite on the R camera, but there will be a higher end successor at some point and I am very curious to see what it brings to the table....
Thanks for your post here, Don. I believe RF will be one part of the future (with EF in second place in terms of Canon's R&D and marketing effort, etc). I expect you meant, in time the vast majority of Canon's lens development will focus on RF (and in the eventual future, it may be exclusively RF).

Indeed, I do agree with you that it is going to be a long time before Canon ever stops making EF (or even EF-S) lenses, especially as these have their place on R mount bodies (with the adaptor/s, and EF-S useful for current 4K crop).

I am curious as to why you believe the Rebel (XXXD) models will switch over to R mount sooner than the XD mount? (By XD mount, do you mean the 7D, 6D and 5D models/lines?) As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. (Indeed as the 7D is also APS-C, that is the model with the most 'mirrorless question-marks' in my mind).

The current EOS R appears to sit between the 6D and 5D models (based on its features and on Canon's own wording). I take this to indicate there will be a higher end FF mirrorless (like 5DIV and/or 5DS/R) as well as a more 'entry level' FF mirrorless (comparable to the 6D).

I currently am very happy with my APS-C cameras (my primary camera now being the 80D, with 7D as backup). I also own some older XXXD models, and the Canon M5 and M10 APS-C mirrorless models. These EOS M bodies come into their own for great portability (as well as a few specific lens options / selections, e.g. the Samyang 12mm f/2 and Canon EF-M 22mm f/2).

Having written that, I do see me possibly moving up to a FF mirrorless at some stage in the future. Whether that's the EOS R (or other models) will depend on the features I value from a primary camera body at that time, as well as the external factors at that time (e.g. available finances, and lenses - the EF/EF-S lenses I will own at that stage vs the RF lenses available). I was particularly glad to see that EF-S lenses could be used via the lens adapter, this was something I did not expect, but I warmly welcome it!

It's a great time to be a photographer / photography consumer. We get a lot of capability and 'product' for our dollar!
Looking forward to hearing your reply, Don - and the (carefully considered) contributions of others.

Regards

PJ
 
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
#28
I’m curious...upon release of the EOS M, do you believe that APS-C DSLRs and lenses became legacy tech, supported for a time but not kept in the forefront of engineering and marketing?
yes, I do. it has taken a few years due to Canon's initially botched system launch of EOS M (underspecced and overpriced) - but ever since that has been corrected (M5, M6, M50) and EOS M has fully caught on, Canon Rebel-slappers and EF-S lenses are visibly receiving less and less attention from Canon. specific numbers are not publicly available, but I am sure it is fully reflected in sales (units and revenue): EOS M is eating EF-S and EOS Rebels and xxD series.

only 7D class sits in a separate niche (more action and tele-centric users, where lenses dictate size and prize of gear).

mirrorslappers and their lens mounts are on the decline. Ony A-mount, Nikon F, Canon EF/EF-S. just face it. they don't stop working overnight, but ... they are on their way out. they will be on life support for a while, but nothing more.

especially for APS-C systems transition to " mirrorfree only" is in full swing and will complete quickly now. that market segment is all about 1. "decent enough IQ and functionality" in 2. as compact aa possible form factor and 3. at affordable price. Which is exactly what Canon's EOS-M and EF-M lineup perfectly deliver.
 
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Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
#29
I am curious as to why you believe the Rebel (XXXD) models will switch over to R mount sooner than the XD mount? (By XD mount, do you mean the 7D, 6D and 5D models/lines?) As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. (Indeed as the 7D is also APS-C, that is the model with the most 'mirrorless question-marks' in my mind).
Rebels / xxD and EF-S lenses will not "transition" to R mount. they are being *replaced* by EOS-M bodies and EF-M lenses.

i dont think there will ever be Canon APS-C cameras with EOS R mount.
Canon has evidently decided to go with 2 mounts, 2 systems, each perfectly well chosen for the respective image circle:
APS -C = EOS M with EF-M lenses
FF = EOS R with RF lenses

"EOS 7D category" will be replaced by
1. higher-end/faster EOS M top models (APS-C) and even more so by
2. action-capable, hi-rez, well-croppable EOS R bodies )with FF sensor). Canon is just not yet able to fully deliver it (see interviews with EOS R team - sensors (readout speed) and DIGIC are not there yet. They need another generation jump.

PS. hope this qualifies as a "carefully considered" contribution. :)
 
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AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,135
335
#30
There certainly are going to be products that will be of interest. The question is, whether they will cause us to open our pocket books.

BTW when someone persists in using a derogatory term, is that not somewhat antagonistic. A word that comes to mind is "mirror slapper". I'm using a "mirror slapper" and I guess the idea is to make me feel lower as a human for continuing to be satisfied with it. What if it was your workplace and you were driving a nice older car and it was being referenced as a clunker? People who make these kinds of comments don't get very high marks from me relative to their IQ.

Jack
As soon as someone uses “mirror slapper”, I turn off.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
1,929
175
Vancouver, BC
#31
Canon Rebel-slappers and EF-S lenses are visibly receiving less and less attention from Canon. specific numbers are not publicly available, but I am sure it is fully reflected in sales (units and revenue): EOS M is eating EF-S and EOS Rebels and xxD series.
I didn't know that Canon paid attention to Canon Rebel-slappers at all. I mean, if someone wants to buy a Rebel to slap it around, I'm pretty sure Canon is ok with it! :eek:

But to your point, the Best Sellers in Digital Cameras on Amazon are APSC DSLRs.
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052

#1 - $450 Canon T6 kit
#2 - $350 Canon T6 kit
#3 - $780 Nikon D3400 Kit
#4 - $57 Kodak point and shoot
#5 - $109 Canon point and shoot
#6 - $88 Sony point and shoot
#7 - $500 Canon T6 kit
#8 - $170 DXO One (holy cow!)
#9 - $580 Canon T6 kit
#10 - $80 Chinese waterproof point and shoot

In fact, there are no mirrorless APSC's until Sony a6000 at #16.

Sony sure has a sense of humor, because if you click it, and scroll to the description "From the Manufacturer" this is titled Sony ILCE6000L/B Mirrorless DSLR Camera w/ 16-50mm lens :D

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Mirrorl...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q36K3YDF6ZFQWWQZW0H5

Canon's M50 ranks #24, behind the 6D Mark 2, at #22 (which is actually their best-selling full frame camera). Nikon's D850 ranks #29, and both DSLRs outsell the Sony A7III, which is ranked #32. So much for A7III dominating the full frame market.

Anyways, I know you hate them and that you wish they would go the way of telegraph machines and carrier pigeons,, but APSC DSLRs are not only alive and well, they make camera manufacturers tons of money. Because people actually want them, as can be evidenced by the board being chock full of Canon T6 kits.

In the defense of the T6, which is as boring as cameras come today, it is a very good basic camera that can take great photos; in the hands of someone with understanding of light and composition, it takes amazing photos worthy of any collection at just a few hundred dollars.
 
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
#32
not disputing you can take great pictures also with Rebel mirrorslappers. But no point to buy one with EF-S lenses instead of going EOS M(50) plus EF-M today.

Also, amazon.com stats are little more than "anecdotal". It starts with amazon not being able to list products only once and assign them correct product names ...
Sony sure has a sense of humor, because if you click it, and scroll to the description "From the Manufacturer" this is titled Sony ILCE6000L/B Mirrorless DSLR Camera ...
solely amazon's inability, not Sony's. :) Some temp at amazon not able to type in correct product names.


It would be really, really interesting to see real # of units sold for each camera and lens model and per market ... but data not publicly available.
 
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YuengLinger

EOS 6D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
2,022
64
Southeastern USA
#33
I lack your confidence in that timeline. But hey, maybe there will be a 1-series style EOS R by then.
After re-reading the HardwareZone interview with Canon general managers, I might be reassessing that timeline. Maybe they really are at a plateau with current sensor, processor, EVF, and IBIS tech. Sony might be at their own plateau also. (And is Sony really going to develop, and sustain year after year, the kind of service infrastructure expected by customers purchasing "pro" lenses and bodies?)

The managers don't look very comfortable in the interview's accompanying photograph. :unsure:
 
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jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
969
137
49
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
#34
Well, before Sony innovate with anything else they need to sort out their manufacturing as they are constantly underestimating demand for their A7III and availability is patchy, which is the same as happened to other models. Either that or they simply can't churn out the cameras fast enough.

That may be why Canon went for a slightly more conservative system - to ensure they could actually manufacture enough of them to keep up with demand.
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,318
311
Canada
#35
Thanks for your post here, Don. I believe RF will be one part of the future (with EF in second place in terms of Canon's R&D and marketing effort, etc). I expect you meant, in time the vast majority of Canon's lens development will focus on RF (and in the eventual future, it may be exclusively RF).

Indeed, I do agree with you that it is going to be a long time before Canon ever stops making EF (or even EF-S) lenses, especially as these have their place on R mount bodies (with the adaptor/s, and EF-S useful for current 4K crop).

I am curious as to why you believe the Rebel (XXXD) models will switch over to R mount sooner than the XD mount? (By XD mount, do you mean the 7D, 6D and 5D models/lines?) As the XXXD (Rebel) models are APS-C - I believe we will not see a 'like for like' transition to R mount. (Indeed as the 7D is also APS-C, that is the model with the most 'mirrorless question-marks' in my mind).

The current EOS R appears to sit between the 6D and 5D models (based on its features and on Canon's own wording). I take this to indicate there will be a higher end FF mirrorless (like 5DIV and/or 5DS/R) as well as a more 'entry level' FF mirrorless (comparable to the 6D).

I currently am very happy with my APS-C cameras (my primary camera now being the 80D, with 7D as backup). I also own some older XXXD models, and the Canon M5 and M10 APS-C mirrorless models. These EOS M bodies come into their own for great portability (as well as a few specific lens options / selections, e.g. the Samyang 12mm f/2 and Canon EF-M 22mm f/2).

Having written that, I do see me possibly moving up to a FF mirrorless at some stage in the future. Whether that's the EOS R (or other models) will depend on the features I value from a primary camera body at that time, as well as the external factors at that time (e.g. available finances, and lenses - the EF/EF-S lenses I will own at that stage vs the RF lenses available). I was particularly glad to see that EF-S lenses could be used via the lens adapter, this was something I did not expect, but I warmly welcome it!

It's a great time to be a photographer / photography consumer. We get a lot of capability and 'product' for our dollar!
Looking forward to hearing your reply, Don - and the (carefully considered) contributions of others.

Regards

PJ
As far as crop cameras go, some want tiny cameras like the M series, others like a more traditional form factor like the Rebels... I believe that there will continue to be a market for both.

Since the time to transition a product from mirrored to mirrorless is when mirrorless becomes better featured and lower production cost, and that this should be on the lower speced Rebels first, I would expect to see them go mirrorless sooner....

I also expect to see some slower (and physically smaller) glass to come out for the R mount..... after all, what is the good of a small body without some small glass to go with it?
 
Likes: pj1974
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
#36
mirrorfree cameras can be made any size. M5 is not so different in size to smallest Rebel. If Canon brings an EOS M a bit bigger and higher positioned than M5, it may well be "large enough" to satisfy 80D / 7D users who "don't like things dwarf-sized". :)
 
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old-pr-pix

EOS Rebel T7
Dec 26, 2011
350
8
#37
I didn't know that Canon paid attention to Canon Rebel-slappers at all. I mean, if someone wants to buy a Rebel to slap it around, I'm pretty sure Canon is ok with it! :eek:

But to your point, the Best Sellers in Digital Cameras on Amazon are APSC DSLRs.
https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052

#1 - $450 Canon T6 kit
#2 - $350 Canon T6 kit
#3 - $780 Nikon D3400 Kit
#4 - $57 Kodak point and shoot
#5 - $109 Canon point and shoot
#6 - $88 Sony point and shoot
#7 - $500 Canon T6 kit
#8 - $170 DXO One (holy cow!)
#9 - $580 Canon T6 kit
#10 - $80 Chinese waterproof point and shoot

In fact, there are no mirrorless APSC's until Sony a6000 at #16.

Sony sure has a sense of humor, because if you click it, and scroll to the description "From the Manufacturer" this is titled Sony ILCE6000L/B Mirrorless DSLR Camera w/ 16-50mm lens :D

https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Mirrorl...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q36K3YDF6ZFQWWQZW0H5

Canon's M50 ranks #24, behind the 6D Mark 2, at #22 (which is actually their best-selling full frame camera). Nikon's D850 ranks #29, and both DSLRs outsell the Sony A7III, which is ranked #32. So much for A7III dominating the full frame market.

Anyways, I know you hate them and that you wish they would go the way of telegraph machines and carrier pigeons,, but APSC DSLRs are not only alive and well, they make camera manufacturers tons of money. Because people actually want them, as can be evidenced by the board being chock full of Canon T6 kits.

In the defense of the T6, which is as boring as cameras come today, it is a very good basic camera that can take great photos; in the hands of someone with understanding of light and composition, it takes amazing photos worthy of any collection at just a few hundred dollars.
CR readers tend to forget that mass-market consumers represent the majority of buyers. They tend to buy what matches the price point they are comfortable with. Big box retailers like Costco, Target, etc. don't carry EOS M series (at least any I've been in). Costco currently features 80D and T6 kits and seem to have sold-out of the pallets full of three lens SL-2 kits they had earlier in the summer. No M series to be seen. Maybe these retailers were burned with the original M model that was way overpriced, underperformed (both photographically and sales-wise) and likely large lots had to ultimately be sent back to Canon at a loss (remember the massive EOS M "fire sale")?
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,318
311
Canada
#38
mirrorfree cameras can be made any size. M5 is not so different in size to smallest Rebel. If Canon brings an EOS M a bit bigger and higher positioned than M5, it may well be "large enough" to satisfy 80D / 7D users who "don't like things dwarf-sized". :)
You may be right.... perhaps I should have said mirrorless and not R mount.... but even then, I still see a lot of people who shoot with a Rebel and have a 70-200 lens. Perhaps Canon needs a 70-200 M lens?
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,369
409
#39
...EOS M has fully caught on, Canon Rebel-slappers and EF-S lenses are visibly receiving less and less attention from Canon. specific numbers are not publicly available, but I am sure it is fully reflected in sales (units and revenue): EOS M is eating EF-S and EOS Rebels and xxD series.
But no point to buy one with EF-S lenses instead of going EOS M(50) plus EF-M today.

Also, amazon.com stats are little more than "anecdotal".
Fine, you're sure. Check BCN, retail sales data comprising ~50% of Japan's market. 4 of the top 5 are DSLRs, both the Kiss X9 (SL2/200D) and Kiss X9i (Rebel T7i/800D) continue to outsell the Kiss M (M50).

But I'm sure you won't allow actual data to influence your opinion, you certainly haven't let that happen yet.
 
Jun 12, 2012
212
7
England
#40
As soon as someone uses “mirror slapper”, I turn off.
I agree completely. The term mirrorslapper is obviously derogatory and intended to make DSLR users feel inferior. There are times when I have thought about responding but luckily I have managed to resist the temptation. After all I want to respect a photographer's decision to choose a mirrorless camera in the same way as I hope they respect my decision to choose a DSLR.
Another comment I have seen recently from some commentators is that the announcement of the EOS R has rendered Canon full frame DSLRs and EF lenses obsolete. My 5D mark 4 still works perfectly, I enjoy using it and it does everything I want it to do so why should I invest in a new camera system just because Canon have one full frame mirrorless product on the market? It is possible that in a few years time the Canon full frame mirrorless offerings become so attractive that I will decide to switch but for now I am happy with what I have and would even consider extending my collection of Canon EF lenses.