EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

Bob Howland said:
dilbert said:
We’re told a “surprise” announcement will be made by Canon in July, what that is we’re unsure. However, the source alluded to it being a camera body. I wouldn’t call the EOS 70D a “surprise”, but we’ll see. Could it be…….. something else?
Lets see...
* Canon announces RAW video in official firmware
* Canon announces 4k video in official firmware for 1DX/5DIII with some special add on device
* Canon announces a m4/3 camera plus lenses
* Canon announces a new EOS-M series camera that is radically different
* Canon announces a DSLR wither either hybrid or pure EVF
* Canon announces a DSLR that is modeled on the Ricoh GX-R with a plugable sensor/CPU module
* Canon announces a 70D with the autofocus from the 5DIII
* Canon announces a new APS-H DSLR (not likely)

... other ideas?
I like your fifth idea! How about both the 7D and 70D both being mirrorless cameras with shortened flange distances and Canon introducing a 1-1/3 stop Speed Booster-like adapter? The FF cameras could keep the standard flange distance and mirrors for photographic Neanderthals. The M-mount might have been introduced, half-heartedly, solely to allow a reduction in camera size.
Canon had a chart with a very high tier mirror less camera slot left open maybe it is some sort of mirrorless 1 series sort of beast.
 

c.d.embrey

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 21, 2010
655
7
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

insanitybeard said:
c.d.embrey said:
I'm thinking that the 70D and 7D2 will be too-little-too-late. :(
Because historically Nikon never trailed Canon did they? They never had to catch up with anybody else?
Both Canon and Nikon seem to be in No Hurry to introduce Pro Level APS-C/DX cameras. There are rumors that the 7D2 will be available in 2014, but the are no rumors about the Nikon D400 ever being announced, zilch, nada, nothing. Until Canon pre-announces the 7D2 it's just vaporware.

So that leaves APS-C/DX shooters looking at something that isn't Canon or Nikon.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,923
Canada
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

c.d.embrey said:
Both Canon and Nikon seem to be in No Hurry to introduce Pro Level APS-C/DX cameras. There are rumors that the 7D2 will be available in 2014, but the are no rumors about the Nikon D400 ever being announced, zilch, nada, nothing. Until Canon pre-announces the 7D2 it's just vaporware.

So that leaves APS-C/DX shooters looking at something that isn't Canon or Nikon.
With the p/s you can expect several models in various colors to be announced each year, but as you move up the spectrum the updates get less and less frequent. Once you get into DSLR's, the vast bulk of Canon Sales are rebels and as you move upwards in price the numbers sold drop off. Let's say it takes 100,000 rebels sold to make a camera profitable.... they might hit that in a month. They make more profit per body on a 7D, let's say it only takes 50,000 sold to make a profit..... it could take half a year.. It probably takes a couple years on a 1Dx...

The point is, it takes a lot more time to show a profit on higher end bodies, and without significant improvements over the previous model, sales will be slow. Canon is in business to make money and without a significant improvement there is no sense in them releasing newer versions. High end releases show a lot more improvement over the previous model than a mode dial that goes all the way around....
 

dgatwood

300D, 400D, 6D
May 1, 2013
922
0
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

Bob Howland said:
I like your fifth idea! How about both the 7D and 70D both being mirrorless cameras with shortened flange distances and Canon introducing a 1-1/3 stop Speed Booster-like adapter? The FF cameras could keep the standard flange distance and mirrors for photographic Neanderthals. The M-mount might have been introduced, half-heartedly, solely to allow a reduction in camera size.
Please, no. With my "Neanderthal" EF-S camera, I can shoot pictures in a theater and not annoy everyone with my bright screen. I can look away from my optical viewfinder and enjoy the show without a burned-in square where the screen killed my dark adaptation.

I mean, I could maybe see it as a second body (sharing EF and EF-S lenses with my main camera), just for size reasons, but then I'd have to carry around two cameras just in case I wanted something lighter around my neck, which sort of defeats the purpose of buying something lighter to begin with.

Besides, if I cared about camera size, I'd be shooting with a point-and-shoot (or, for that matter, my iPhone). Whether you go EF-S or EF-M, the vast majority of the weight is the glass, and comparable lenses require very nearly the same amount of glass whether they're designed for EF-S or EF-M—the EF-M 18-55 lens is actually slightly heavier than the equivalent EF-S lens—so I just don't see any real benefit of EF-M, much less a benefit so significant that it would make up for the loss of an OVF.

Just MHO.
 

c.d.embrey

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 21, 2010
655
7
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

Don Haines said:
c.d.embrey said:
Both Canon and Nikon seem to be in No Hurry to introduce Pro Level APS-C/DX cameras. There are rumors that the 7D2 will be available in 2014, but the are no rumors about the Nikon D400 ever being announced, zilch, nada, nothing. Until Canon pre-announces the 7D2 it's just vaporware.

So that leaves APS-C/DX shooters looking at something that isn't Canon or Nikon.
With the p/s you can expect several models in various colors to be announced each year, but as you move up the spectrum the updates get less and less frequent. Once you get into DSLR's, the vast bulk of Canon Sales are rebels and as you move upwards in price the numbers sold drop off. Let's say it takes 100,000 rebels sold to make a camera profitable.... they might hit that in a month. They make more profit per body on a 7D, let's say it only takes 50,000 sold to make a profit..... it could take half a year.. It probably takes a couple years on a 1Dx...

The point is, it takes a lot more time to show a profit on higher end bodies, and without significant improvements over the previous model, sales will be slow. Canon is in business to make money and without a significant improvement there is no sense in them releasing newer versions. High end releases show a lot more improvement over the previous model than a mode dial that goes all the way around....
The Canon 7D, launched in 2009, is the first of the line so there is no historical data available.

This is not true with Nikon. The D200 came out in 2005, the D300 in 2007 and the D300s in 2009. Now it's 2013 and NO D400 is even rumored.

So it seems safe to say that both Canon and Nikon are'nt in any hurry to release either the 7D2 or D400. Maybe they think the upgrade path should lead to FullFrame :( For me, the upgrade path may lead to Fuji E-X1 or Panasonic GH3. YMMV.
 

jrista

EOL
Dec 3, 2011
5,341
25
jonrista.com
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

ankorwatt said:
Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails, if you told me that 50mm from Canon has the first place in a MTF measurements and Nikon is number 17 regarding 50mm measurements and shows inferior measurements and I answer you, well Nikon sells a lot of them, it doesn't make them better. or what do you think?
No- I think Canon needs to step up regarding sensors and not think it is 2004 any longer . It is little bit as the canadians in is hockey, they are not number one in the world , even if millions of Canadiens thinks they are
viva la suecia who banged the Canadian
observe the last with a wink
Well, Neuro has a habit of answering with "sales." Sales are what REALLY differentiate one "product" from another, one "brand" from another. Canon is now, and has been for some time, the worldwide leader in photography equipment. They reign supreme when it comes to DSLRs, hands down.

Sails, on the other hand...are what drive sail boats across the sea. Not sure sails have much relevance when it comes to photography...other than potentially being an interesting subject for photographers who love to photograph sailboats...yachts...and other sail-driven watercraft. :p
 

jrista

EOL
Dec 3, 2011
5,341
25
jonrista.com
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

ankorwatt said:
Canon have lived on a long time on their name and early cmos sensor tech since 2004, sorry but this tech is old 2013 which can been seen if you compare to Nikon, Pentax, Sony = DXO scores etc why are not Canon in the DXO list over best sensors at all ?
Do you have any nuanced view at all whats going on ?This is the real difference between 18 and 24Mp APS as one example
I debunked this already once before. Of the four cameras shown, all EXCEPT the 7D display moire, some quite pronounced. Of all the things to clean up in post...moire is THE WORST. It is a royal pain in the rear end as it has to be cleaned up manually with a localized tool...and "cleaning up" moire in post really just means "destroying detail".

On the flip side, the predictable, uniform blurring to fine detail caused by an OLPF is quite easy to clean up...as easy to clean up as diffraction softening. All one needs is a basic sharpening tool, as in this example below from your previous use of these comparisons...sharpened in PS6 with a basic unsharp mask:
 

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jrista

EOL
Dec 3, 2011
5,341
25
jonrista.com
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

scottkinfw said:
I don't know how or if this fits into this argument, but I think that the essential element in Betamax v. VHS was that VHS out marketed Betamax, and won the war despite being the inferior technology. Not sure if this applies in this debate.


neuroanatomist said:
ankorwatt said:
Neuro, you have a habit to answer with sails
Sales drive revenue. Revenue drives profit. Profit is a major driver of share price and shareholder value. Share price and shareholder value determine whether a public company thrives, survives, or fails.

Betamax was better quality than VHS. VHS sold better. Betamax failed and was abandoned.
Sort of. I would say that Betamax was significantly better than VHS. In comparison, Canon sensors fail in ONE NICHE area in comparison to SOME competitors sensors, and in all other respects are highly competitive and in many respects better (i.e. high ISO noise and high ISO SNR). The SOLE area where Canon "sensors" fall behind is in the low ISO DR area. In every other respect, Canon "DSLR cameras" are superior tools, as it has been clearly demonstrated Canon's latest round of cameras, the 1D X and 5D III, outperform Canon cameras in terms of AF functionality, AF performance, metering capabilities, etc. Canon cameras are renown for their ruggedness and tank-like build (look up Digital Rev's video where they literally put the 7D through hell...tossing it down stairs, submerging it in water and freezing it, lighting it on fire...and it STILL came out swinging. And it doesn't even compare to the 1D X!)

So, while I applaud the attempt, I don't think it is really a valid comparison. Canon makes a phenomenal product, their technology, both technological and optical, is cutting edge and superior in the majority of respects to the majority of their competition. There is one, single, explicit and niche area where Canon's technology is a little behind...two stops behind, to be exact...and that is ISO 100 & 200 dynamic range.

To be frank, Canon listened to their customers. Before the D800, the supreme demand of Canon by Canon customers was "Higher ISO, Better ISO, Bigger Pixels, Fewer Pixels!!" Well, Canon delivered, and delivered exceptionally well. That was BEFORE the D800. Well, now the D800 and it's Exmor sensor have changed Canon's customers expectations. Canon will most certainly respond, but designing a brand new sensor, especially on a brand new fabrication process, is not something that happens over night. It'll take a couple years, at least. I suspect the 7D II will be the first DSLR since the introduction of the 1D X and 5D III that will use a new fabrication process, and unveil Canon's first answer to their customers Current demands: Keep the improvements they made last round (Higher, Better, Bigger, Fewer!) and add in improved low ISO DR. I don't suspect we'll see anything else for another year, as it will still take time to deliver a high MP sensor capable of fulfilling everyone's wants and desires, on both the still and video fronts, with "the best of everything". It just plain and simply does not happen over night!
 

CanNotYet

EOS 80D
Aug 24, 2012
159
0
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

Surprise!

Releasing a new version of 6D with built-in flash (to lure in APS-C customers) called "6Df".

:)
 

pedro

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 21, 2010
1,015
0
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

Well, the surprise might be, that the price tag is even higher than ever before ... my two cents 8)
 

mucher

I'm New Here
Aug 27, 2012
10
0
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

I hope it will be 4:2:2 YUV 10bit/12bit output support, or/and CinemaDNG output support for currently selling models. That RAW DNG ML firmware makes Canon looking really bad.
 

CanNotYet

EOS 80D
Aug 24, 2012
159
0
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

pedro said:
Well, the surprise might be, that the price tag is even higher than ever before ... my two cents 8)
Pedro, that wouldn't be a surprise. A surprise would be if it was lower! :)
 

vscd

5DC
Jan 12, 2013
434
0
Germany
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

Who really needs a buildin flash? There are a lot of small flashunits out there (f.e. 270EX II), you can stick on the
body of you want. And those are far superior to the buildin-lightbulbs. It's like having a DVD-Drive in your laptop,
yes you need it once or twice in a lifetime, but better stick it externally and spare the weight 99% of the time.

But to come back to the 70D/7DM2 rumours...I guess the 70D will come out as an updated Version of the old 7D,
outspeccing the old cam, but with no magnesiumbody, SDCards or Prolike connectors. The 7DM2 will be out at
the end of 2013/beginning of 2014 with the new branch of sensors... which we'll get to use the next 4 or 5 years.

The WLAN/GPS enhancements of the 6D will get inside the 70D, I guess... they seem to work very well and give
some pluspoints against the Nikoncams.
 

CTJohn

EOS RP
Feb 24, 2012
250
5
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

vscd said:
Who really needs a buildin flash? There are a lot of small flashunits out there (f.e. 270EX II), you can stick on the
body of you want. And those are far superior to the buildin-lightbulbs. It's like having a DVD-Drive in your laptop,
yes you need it once or twice in a lifetime, but better stick it externally and spare the weight 99% of the time.

But to come back to the 70D/7DM2 rumours...I guess the 70D will come out as an updated Version of the old 7D,
outspeccing the old cam, but with no magnesiumbody, SDCards or Prolike connectors. The 7DM2 will be out at
the end of 2013/beginning of 2014 with the new branch of sensors... which we'll get to use the next 4 or 5 years.

The WLAN/GPS enhancements of the 6D will get inside the 70D, I guess... they seem to work very well and give
some pluspoints against the Nikoncams.
I use the built in flash on my 7D as a master flash for a couple 430EXII slave flashes. Just bought a 6D and had to waste money buying a 90EX for the same purpose.
 

vscd

5DC
Jan 12, 2013
434
0
Germany
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

I knew that this answer will come and it seems to be a valid answer, but as I told... there are small external out there
which can do the same. When I used build in flashs to trigger external ones, they always needed to "look" to the
cam
because they need a visual connection. This was mostyl no help while shooting, and furthermore the small central
flash on the cam had to be bright to trigger, but I can't get rid of them for the result (I just want to flash from the
sides).

I think just getting a real flash is the way to go. I understand why someone needs an internal, but I totally disagree
that this belongs to a "professional" cam.
 

CTJohn

EOS RP
Feb 24, 2012
250
5
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

vscd said:
I knew that this answer will come and it seems to be a valid answer, but as I told... there are small external out there
which can do the same. When I used build in flashs to trigger external ones, they always needed to "look" to the
cam
because they need a visual connection. This was mostyl no help while shooting, and furthermore the small central
flash on the cam had to be bright to trigger, but I can't get rid of them for the result (I just want to flash from the
sides).

I think just getting a real flash is the way to go. I understand why someone needs an internal, but I totally disagree
that this belongs to a "professional" cam.
It's easy to turn off the pop-up flash in the camera's menu and use only the slaves for lighting. The firing of the pop-up can be before the image is taken and is only to send instructions to the slaves. You can do this with a pop-up, or like I said, if there's no pop-up, you get to pay Canon more for something like the 90EX to do the same thing. Give me the internal flash - then it's my decision how to use it, not Canon's.
 

dgatwood

300D, 400D, 6D
May 1, 2013
922
0
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

vscd said:
Who really needs a buildin flash? There are a lot of small flashunits out there (f.e. 270EX II), you can stick on the
body of you want. And those are far superior to the buildin-lightbulbs.
You know the quote "The best camera is the one you have with you?" Applies to flashes, too. With the built-in flash, that "Ooh, there's not quite enough light" moment takes a single button press to fix. Without it, you're digging in your bag and fishing out the flash, then swearing when you realize you have to dig again for a replacement set of batteries, and two minutes later, you realize you missed the shot two minutes earlier.

Yes, I often know I'm going to need the flash, and put it on ahead of time. But I'd be lying if I said I always did. :)

With an external flash, I also have to choose between having a flash and having my radio remote, because there's only one shoe to hold them both. With the built-in flash, it only takes a quarter extra second to slide the remote receiver out of the way so that the flash will flip up.

Finally, even the 270 EX II is huge compared with the built-in flash. I realize that this helps in terms of avoiding a lens shadow on the floor, but it's a considerable amount of weight and size.
 

vscd

5DC
Jan 12, 2013
434
0
Germany
Re: EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II

So, everyone should carry more weight just for those who want a flash? I don't think so. I would like to see a
radio trigger inside and everyone could easily go out with a 90EX if he wants to. Normally never the build in flash
saved a picture for me, because frontal white light always looked like a compromise to me. On sunny days with
backlight you can maybe have some advantage. If the flash could be turned to the side or upwise I would try it
again.