Ethics of a photograph containing a baited animal

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
4,327
1,936
Irving, Texas
Jack Douglas said:
CanonFanBoy, I tend to agree with you that a healthy skepticism is needed regarding experts but there needs to be very solid evidence that prompts that approach. Often an expert in a given field becomes a spokesperson for unrelated fields and their PhD is held up as being meaningful. It isn't, other than perhaps being indicative of mental ability. And then there is the politics - ugh. How many so called experts lack what is called "common sense".

These days getting the "truth" is increasingly difficult. :(

Jack
So true. I defer to the biologist / photographer expert at Dutch Harbor. He just isn't an expert Orangutan will accept because he goes against O's ethical views. There must be no dissent. Obey! :)
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,197
1,148
Alberta, Canada
Don, I know you reward your subjects richly. Where's Harry the Heron to speak up and give his opinion? The bread was fed to the fish, not Harry. ;)

Jack
 

Valvebounce

EOS 5D SR
Apr 3, 2013
4,295
230
52
Isle of Wight
Hi Jack.
Yes the adventures of Harry were good, but I think that was more of a pest control situation, feed the invasive fish species to trick them in to getting eaten by Harry.

Cheers, Graham.

Jack Douglas said:
Don, I know you reward your subjects richly. Where's Harry the Heron to speak up and give his opinion? The bread was fed to the fish, not Harry. ;)

Jack
 

takesome1

EOS 6D MK II
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
98
Licking, Missouri
Orangutan said:
snoke said:
kirispupis said:
So far, my belief is that this photo, should never go into my portfolio because the animal was baited.
Like model situation. Man made construct. Many portfolio with model picture.
100% wrong. Human models are able to decide for themselves whether the modeling contract is a fair bargain, wild animals are not.

You don't feed a Labrador Retriever all the food it wants because it can't see the long-term effects of excess consumption.
You are the one 100% wrong. The animal decides if it wants to eat the food provided.

and

The food for my Lab is in a feeder that continually dispenses. Food is always in front of it. It is lean and trim because it is active and works. Fat labs are usually the result of lazy people who do not understand the responsibility of owning an active dog.
 

takesome1

EOS 6D MK II
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
98
Licking, Missouri
Don Haines said:
Is this ethical?
Nope

But this could be another debate. Do man made elements in a wildlife picture take away form the subject?
Should they be avoided?
A Wildlife Purist attitude maybe.
I try and avoid these kind of pics and they usually get deleted, it is just poor composition.

As for the OP's original post, has any one even asked if the fish in the picture is a native to that lake?
What kind of carp set up would that be if the prop fish isn't accurate.
 

takesome1

EOS 6D MK II
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
98
Licking, Missouri
Don Haines said:
So..... is this ethical?.....
In another post a Labrador Retriever was mentioned. Would it have been unethical to bring the Lab for a shoot like this so I could get a few BIF shots.

He would have gotten his daily exercise and he would have had fun doing it. Is my Lab unethical, he is just going with his instincts?
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,232
1,843
Canada
takesome1 said:
Don Haines said:
Is this ethical?
Nope

But this could be another debate. Do man made elements in a wildlife picture take away form the subject?
Should they be avoided?
A Wildlife Purist attitude maybe.
I try and avoid these kind of pics and they usually get deleted, it is just poor composition.

As for the OP's original post, has any one even asked if the fish in the picture is a native to that lake?
What kind of carp set up would that be if the prop fish isn't accurate.
I built this antenna about 30 years ago..... and then Ospreys started building nests in it.... this resulted in a several year battle between myself and the ospreys, in the end we put up a 90 foot post with a nesting platform on top. Fast forward 20 years and there are now 6 different osprey nests clustered around the edges of the field and they like to sit on top of my antenna and watch the river. Definitely a case of man altering the environment.....

And btw, when you are 130 feet up, on the side of a tower, you have very little control over composition. Stepping back a few feet means a loud scream, followed by a thud!
 

takesome1

EOS 6D MK II
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
98
Licking, Missouri
Don Haines said:
takesome1 said:
Don Haines said:
Is this ethical?
Nope

But this could be another debate. Do man made elements in a wildlife picture take away form the subject?
Should they be avoided?
A Wildlife Purist attitude maybe.
I try and avoid these kind of pics and they usually get deleted, it is just poor composition.

As for the OP's original post, has any one even asked if the fish in the picture is a native to that lake?
What kind of carp set up would that be if the prop fish isn't accurate.
I built this antenna about 30 years ago..... and then Ospreys started building nests in it.... this resulted in a several year battle between myself and the ospreys, in the end we put up a 90 foot post with a nesting platform on top. Fast forward 20 years and there are now 6 different osprey nests clustered around the edges of the field and they like to sit on top of my antenna and watch the river. Definitely a case of man altering the environment.....

And btw, when you are 130 feet up, on the side of a tower, you have very little control over composition. Stepping back a few feet means a loud scream, followed by a thud!
With the back story it is an ethical picture.
And a more interesting pic. :)
 

Valvebounce

EOS 5D SR
Apr 3, 2013
4,295
230
52
Isle of Wight
Hi Don.
And today’s quote of the day goes to
“when you are 130 feet up, on the side of a tower, you have very little control over composition. Stepping back a few feet means a loud scream, followed by a thud!”a ;D ;D

Thanks for the laugh, the back story is interesting too.

Cheers, Graham.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,253
454
takesome1 said:
Nope

But this could be another debate. Do man made elements in a wildlife picture take away form the subject?
Should they be avoided?
A Wildlife Purist attitude maybe.
I try and avoid these kind of pics and they usually get deleted, it is just poor composition.
Interestingly, some of the premier wildlife photography competitions rejected any photograph that had human constructions or evidence of human activity. A few years ago (some or all, not sure which) they relaxed this to say that they would permit 'human elements' as long as the behaviour was wild. All this did was change the goal posts and led to the infamous case where a photo of a 'wild' wolf was banned because (depending on whose report you read) the wolf was recognised as a captive one but also that in the wild wolves are not really known to jump obstacles in this manner so was probably either bated to do so or trained to do so. All of this is speculative because to this day the photographer refuses to admit any wrong doing but it was the behavioural aspect that was the biggest 'give away'.
Whatever the truth, it shows how the 'ethics' of competitions has changed probably because human influence is expanding all the time making it harder to be genuinely 'untouched' and after all, it is animal behaviour that people are entranced by, not the location.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jan/20/wolf-wildlife-photographer-award-stripped
 

takesome1

EOS 6D MK II
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
98
Licking, Missouri
Mikehit said:
takesome1 said:
Nope

But this could be another debate. Do man made elements in a wildlife picture take away form the subject?
Should they be avoided?
A Wildlife Purist attitude maybe.
I try and avoid these kind of pics and they usually get deleted, it is just poor composition.
Interestingly, some of the premier wildlife photography competitions rejected any photograph that had human constructions or evidence of human activity. A few years ago (some or all, not sure which) they relaxed this to say that they would permit 'human elements' as long as the behaviour was wild. All this did was change the goal posts and led to the infamous case where a photo of a 'wild' wolf was banned because (depending on whose report you read) the wolf was recognised as a captive one but also that in the wild wolves are not really known to jump obstacles in this manner so was probably either bated to do so or trained to do so. All of this is speculative because to this day the photographer refuses to admit any wrong doing but it was the behavioural aspect that was the biggest 'give away'.
Whatever the truth, it shows how the 'ethics' of competitions has changed probably because human influence is expanding all the time making it harder to be genuinely 'untouched' and after all, it is animal behaviour that people are entranced by, not the location.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jan/20/wolf-wildlife-photographer-award-stripped
I remember reading that several years ago. Everything about it looked staged.

But there are human elements in this picture. A fence/gate.
While it isn't baiting it would be a natural act for a wolf to jump a fence to get in to a pen to eat a chicken.
In this instance a wild wolf would have most likely crawled through or under.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,232
1,843
Canada
Valvebounce said:
Hi Don.
And today’s quote of the day goes to
“when you are 130 feet up, on the side of a tower, you have very little control over composition. Stepping back a few feet means a loud scream, followed by a thud!”a ;D ;D

Thanks for the laugh, the back story is interesting too.

Cheers, Graham.
Then there as my war against the starlings who were making nests in the search and rescue satellite dishes.... In my infinite wisdom, I got some plastic owls and mounted them on the dish.... soon after I found that the birds had made a small hole in the plastic owls and were nesting inside!
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,197
1,148
Alberta, Canada
Don Haines said:
Valvebounce said:
Hi Don.
And today’s quote of the day goes to
“when you are 130 feet up, on the side of a tower, you have very little control over composition. Stepping back a few feet means a loud scream, followed by a thud!”a ;D ;D

Thanks for the laugh, the back story is interesting too.

Cheers, Graham.
Then there as my war against the starlings who were making nests in the search and rescue satellite dishes.... In my infinite wisdom, I got some plastic owls and mounted them on the dish.... soon after I found that the birds had made a small hole in the plastic owls and were nesting inside!
What "bird brains".

Jack
 

Click

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 29, 2012
12,665
1,159
Canada
Don Haines said:
Then there as my war against the starlings who were making nests in the search and rescue satellite dishes.... In my infinite wisdom, I got some plastic owls and mounted them on the dish.... soon after I found that the birds had made a small hole in the plastic owls and were nesting inside!
;D ;D ;D Funny story. :D