Flagship EOS R camera coming in February ahead of CP+? [CR1]

nchoh

EOS 80D
Apr 3, 2018
198
103
Calgary
This goes without saying...

Canon's processors are not known to be the most powerful or speedy chips out there, this is why (well partly) that there are so many limitations with video shooting.

Canon needs multicore CPU's or simply double up like on the 1DX II. I think we will definitely be seeing more than one CPU in any mirrorless that has real video specs and/or high speed stills capture.
Can you provide some links as to your assertion?
 

Yasko

EOS 80D
Jun 9, 2017
107
16
I hope a 6D equivalent will be launched somewhere in the future (may be 1 or 2-3 years), so we don‘t only get the more expensive R and like a 1D and 5D equivalents in the future...
 

nchoh

EOS 80D
Apr 3, 2018
198
103
Calgary
Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.
Is there a need to be small? I can understand that cell phones chips need to be small for the very reason that for cell phones smallness (and slimness) is a desired attribute. But for cameras? Doubtful that there is a real need for smaller ISP chips.

Smaller also comes with a cost. All else being equal, a smaller chip will have a higher failure rate. So if you don't need to shrink it down, why do it?
 

baldermort

1DX Mark-II, 5DS-R, M6, D7 Mark-II
Oct 2, 2018
3
5
Hmmm, lots of possible direction here.
Consider the known "R" as the intro model, and take on board all the features and functions and flanges that came with that. Also consider 8-fps, but only in one-shot mode. IF you want to have AI-Focus, then it drops to a lazy 5-fps. So look at the "data-bus" on that stream, and at the very end is a single SD-Card. OK, so it is a quicker SD, but it is still "just" an SD-Card. Consider all the clever techie bits that happen before and after the "shot" and include those considerations when thinking about some bigger brother R+ thing.
Then go look at the normal "life-cycle" for assorted Canon camera models. How frequently did they do Mark-i, Mark-II, Mark-iii, Mark-iv. (for both the 5DS-R and the 7D)
Now join up all those dots.......
Loose the SD-Card and give me a C-FAST, or even TWO nice C-FAST cards
Give me all the low-light and dynamic range of the "R" sensor, but add all the missing pixels to get me up to 50+
THEN, get all fully tricked out on the software front. DO the CROP in software. Give me a builtin x1.6 like I get on the 7D, which would CROP the pixels from 50+ down to 30+ and so I also loose some of the 5000+ focus points. Having "only" 2000 focus points and 30+ megapixels means there is less data going into the "Bus" and so you can do that faster.
So 50+ megapixel at say 9/fps (Nice!)
And 30+ megapixel at say 12/fps (also Nice!)
Dual C-FAST cards and hence all the focus towards cine-camera and high-frame-rate slow-motion movies.

The 1DX Mark-ii is a beast, I bought one shortly after the announcement. Major league, in your face, industrial strength PRO camera for all the photo-journalist folks doing sports and action pictures.
The 5DS-R is also a beast, but mainly for fashion, macro, product photos.
The 7D Mark-ii is then the crop sensor, wildlife photography tool (desperately in need of an update)
By all means start working on a "R" variant of the 1DX replacement, but makes much more sense to combine the 5DS-R/7D replacement into a "R+" body and announce same in January, immediately after my nice employer announce what the nice bonus payment will be. :)
 
Reactions: tariqkieran

Sean C

EOS M50
Apr 21, 2015
34
13
Unless Canon thinks they can surpass SLR autofocus performance, it makes more sense to leave speedy autofocus use cases to the SLRs and release R cameras targeted at other uses for now. They've got a range finder/general replacement now. A studio/landscape camera would make sense, as would an eventual rebel replacement once they've got part count/production cost worked out.

I personally really want one with a global electronic shutter to get 1/500 flash sync, but that is specific sensor design and I'm unlikely to get it from Canon anytime soon. (nor is it a knock on Canon if they don't satisfy that wish)
 
Reactions: tariqkieran and ken

FramerMCB

Canon 40D & 7D
Sep 9, 2014
350
56
52
Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.
One constraint would seem to be - what body size do they aim for?
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
955
207
ethanzentz.com
Processor "size" in terms of nm is not necessarily how much space the entire processor takes up, I think it more refers to the size of the circuits. When the circuits are smaller and closer together, they can transfer data faster. I'm not expert so don't quote me. But it doesn't have to do with how 'small you want the camera body.' Intel desktop processors (who really don't care about physical size) are working to get smaller nm processors, I think they are down to 20 or 14.
 
Reactions: criscokkat

BeenThere

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 4, 2012
824
151
Processor "size" in terms of nm is not necessarily how much space the entire processor takes up, I think it more refers to the size of the circuits. When the circuits are smaller and closer together, they can transfer data faster. I'm not expert so don't quote me. But it doesn't have to do with how 'small you want the camera body.' Intel desktop processors (who really don't care about physical size) are working to get smaller nm processors, I think they are down to 20 or 14.
Low power consumption and faster cycle time are two of the major benefits of small processor feature size. The package size is not usually impacted in a big way.
 

bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
347
186
I personally really want one with a global electronic shutter to get 1/500 flash sync, but that is specific sensor design and I'm unlikely to get it from Canon anytime soon. (nor is it a knock on Canon if they don't satisfy that wish)
I can definitely Sony would be a first manufacture to get global shutter. That would be enough to get me to switch to Sony. IBIS, eyeAF, global shutter. If they can incoporate that 5.6 million EVF that would be a very interesting offering.
 

Architect1776

Defining the poetics of space through Architecture
Aug 18, 2017
191
148
117
Williamsport, PA
Hmmm, lots of possible direction here.
Consider the known "R" as the intro model, and take on board all the features and functions and flanges that came with that. Also consider 8-fps, but only in one-shot mode. IF you want to have AI-Focus, then it drops to a lazy 5-fps. So look at the "data-bus" on that stream, and at the very end is a single SD-Card. OK, so it is a quicker SD, but it is still "just" an SD-Card. Consider all the clever techie bits that happen before and after the "shot" and include those considerations when thinking about some bigger brother R+ thing.
Then go look at the normal "life-cycle" for assorted Canon camera models. How frequently did they do Mark-i, Mark-II, Mark-iii, Mark-iv. (for both the 5DS-R and the 7D)
Now join up all those dots.......
Loose the SD-Card and give me a C-FAST, or even TWO nice C-FAST cards
Give me all the low-light and dynamic range of the "R" sensor, but add all the missing pixels to get me up to 50+
THEN, get all fully tricked out on the software front. DO the CROP in software. Give me a builtin x1.6 like I get on the 7D, which would CROP the pixels from 50+ down to 30+ and so I also loose some of the 5000+ focus points. Having "only" 2000 focus points and 30+ megapixels means there is less data going into the "Bus" and so you can do that faster.
So 50+ megapixel at say 9/fps (Nice!)
And 30+ megapixel at say 12/fps (also Nice!)
Dual C-FAST cards and hence all the focus towards cine-camera and high-frame-rate slow-motion movies.

The 1DX Mark-ii is a beast, I bought one shortly after the announcement. Major league, in your face, industrial strength PRO camera for all the photo-journalist folks doing sports and action pictures.
The 5DS-R is also a beast, but mainly for fashion, macro, product photos.
The 7D Mark-ii is then the crop sensor, wildlife photography tool (desperately in need of an update)
By all means start working on a "R" variant of the 1DX replacement, but makes much more sense to combine the 5DS-R/7D replacement into a "R+" body and announce same in January, immediately after my nice employer announce what the nice bonus payment will be. :)
I would prefer with a new system that is looking at speed adopt the CFEpress card as the standard for all future R cameras at the very least. And if possible for all but the Rebel series new to come DSLRs.
 
Reactions: MayaTlab

magarity

EOS 80D
Feb 14, 2017
143
37
Are they really ditching the model numbering system completely? Notice the 'R' is just ... 'R'. Canon may be following the Microsoft Windows versioning plan during the period of ME, XP, Vista, ah screw it, back to numbers: 7, 8, 10.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,277
552
Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.
The 1Dx uses three processors(two digic 5+ and a Digic 4), the 1DX MK II uses two Digic 6+ processors, so a flagship will likely use at least two. Also, the higher end versions used a plus version of the basic processor.

Like everything else, processors are a compromise between battery usage, heat dissipation, and processing speed. The technology used to manufacture a processor can reduce processor power requirements as well, its a matter of how everything works together.

DPAF when extended to the full area of a FF sensor is a processor hog, that means a high end camera will have to deal with more processing, faster processor(s), and a larger battery. If you added IBIS, that is even more power consumption, and heat becomes a issue, so its difficult to get the right balance.
 
Reactions: fish_shooter

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
111
interesting that a rumor would include fairly specific launch timing, but not give the slightest indication, whether the expected "flagship" camera is more speed or resolution oriented ... mirrorfree "1D-X" or "5Ds" category"?
 

razorzec

700D
Sep 16, 2016
30
36
Mars
My guess is that this will be a hybrid 5Ds and 5IV type. All EOS R goodies + dual card slot (CFast 2+ SD) and filterless 50MP sensor with joystick and extra buttons and a fully weathersealed body worthy of 1D/5D build quality..

it will record 4K video for sure, and will have a new 50mp sensor which, perhaps would bring full frame 4K in it. while burst speed will be around 5-6fps.

I don't expect Canon to put alot more features to it.
 

overniven

EOS M50
Apr 16, 2013
27
5
Are they really ditching the model numbering system completely? Notice the 'R' is just ... 'R'. Canon may be following the Microsoft Windows versioning plan during the period of ME, XP, Vista, ah screw it, back to numbers: 7, 8, 10.
I just figured their mirrorless R will become R1, R5, R7,R10,R100. Kind of the way the M did.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
7,909
1,262
Canada
I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.

Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors.

However the size of the actual sensor is hard to shrink at this point, because of the physics of light. That's why stacking the processors can be so effective, as the signal can travel backwards to a corresponding set of transistors to do initial processing rather than through a trace all the way to the edge of the board before being handed off to those transistors. (this is different than Foveon's use of the term 'stacked', where they actually stack the sensors themselves to capture more light).

I'd lean towards a 1dx style camera in 1st quarter with dual digic or a new die-shrunk digic 9. I hope we will see one of their new stacked sensors in production soon though because that opens the door to 4k/8k 120fps. Right now they can't do that because of the heat and bandwidth. Smaller processes for the stacked portion of the die and external digics mean more bandwidth + less power which equals less heat.
I agree, and would like to add another point, plus your estimation of increased complexity is a bit low.....

Going from 35-40nm to around 10nm increases the number of transistors per area by a factor of 10.… and yes, lower power consumption and greater speed....

The other point is that the greater density allows you to put a significant memory buffer on the chip, which also helps with increased burst rates and video frame rates.

If you follow over to the sensor with the same increased density, you can put additional circuitry on sensor, such as more A/D units, logic, or whatever. The ultimate would be to have your digic X embedded on the sensor die :) That would be a mean chip!
 
Reactions: navastronia

tiggy@mac.com

Pentax K-1000
Jan 20, 2014
475
144
Thetford, VT
www.ForestMetrix.com
Canon *usually* tests out major tech upgrades in non-flagship models. The DPAF came out in the 70D rather than the 1DX, etc.

If we get major new tech relative to the current R model, I'd expect it to be in a 5/7/5DS class of camera first. They may call that the current flagship until the real flagship arrives a year later. The marketing people do this sort of thing frequently. Some of them were calling the current R model a pro class camera, but the general consensus is that it lacks some of the pro qualities (low fps, years-old sensor, single card, lack of pro controls, etc.)

One thing not to lose sight of is the fact that Canon's internal development process involves brief documents that are approved as a feature set many months or even years prior to release. Which means that market reaction time is stuttered. For instance, the great IBIS wailing that happened over the past few months is unlikely to register in a product change this soon.

So, processing all of the above, I'd expect a high megapixel camera with some additional pro features. Because of tech limitations, they may not be able to do a 7D2 replacement with it due to current Canon readout limits, although they might use this as a platform to test some tech solution to that issue (optimistic). I wouldn't be surprised if we get a truly new sensor in the new camera, which would be the test bed for the true flagship later.

Feedback that returns from this new camera and becomes useful to future product development will...
1) Largely consist of production issues feedback internally, rather than photographer/forum/field observations and
2) Be used in future camera development in a brief that would launch a new camera project in summer/fall 2019 for production a year or more later.

This means we'll get some new stuff in the next 18-24 months, but we'll get most of what we want 24-36 months from now. This is what we experienced with the M series and pretty much every other thing Canon's ever done.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
386
271
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.
Canon’s latest Nanoimprint lithography (NIL) tool, used to produce semiconductor chips, is capable of producing sub-10nm feature sizes. [REF].
Also, in Jan 2018 Nikkei Review reported that Canon to double output of chip making equipment.