Flagship EOS R camera coming in February ahead of CP+? [CR1]

Daner

EOS M50
Aug 15, 2017
35
23
Stockholm
I can't seem to find it but I'm pretty sure some site mentioned that Canon was setting up a new production line for their processors that can produce a much smaller die. Right now the digic 8 processors are somewhere around a 35-40nm process. Most new phones use somewhere around a 10nm process, and most 'cheap' phones using previous years processes are still around 23nm or smaller.

Just shrinking the die means they can put twice as many transistors in the same amount of space, or they can choose to just keep the number the same and have less power consumption and greater speed. A combination of the two could lead to some very speedy digic processors.

However the size of the actual sensor is hard to shrink at this point, because of the physics of light. That's why stacking the processors can be so effective, as the signal can travel backwards to a corresponding set of transistors to do initial processing rather than through a trace all the way to the edge of the board before being handed off to those transistors. (this is different than Foveon's use of the term 'stacked', where they actually stack the sensors themselves to capture more light).

I'd lean towards a 1dx style camera in 1st quarter with dual digic or a new die-shrunk digic 9. I hope we will see one of their new stacked sensors in production soon though because that opens the door to 4k/8k 120fps. Right now they can't do that because of the heat and bandwidth. Smaller processes for the stacked portion of the die and external digics mean more bandwidth + less power which equals less heat.
... and the potential for better battery life.
 

Hector1970

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 22, 2012
1,095
273
Flagship for me would mean 1DR
Full blown would mean 5DR (5DV or 5DSR II).
Not sure if they are ready to surpass the 1DX II yet.
A 5DSR II is most likely.. Rehash of the existing 50MP sensor perhaps.
Hopefully not.
I’d prefer if it was something slightly better than the 5D IV especially frame rate. 10FPS would be nice
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,080
378
Flagship for me would mean 1DR
Full blown would mean 5DR (5DV or 5DSR II).
Not sure if they are ready to surpass the 1DX II yet.
A 5DSR II is most likely.. Rehash of the existing 50MP sensor perhaps.
Hopefully not.
I’d prefer if it was something slightly better than the 5D IV especially frame rate. 10FPS would be nice
I would be positive to both: a 5DsRII (DSLR - EF mount) and a mirrorless 5DsRII like assuming it would be a superset of 5DsR in all points. A 5DIV sensor like the one in EOS R - EOS R sensor has less tolerance to banding than 5DIV strangely like the Nikon mirrorless cameras - does not interest me. I believe Canon needs time to really improve upon the already very good 5DIV sensor.
 
Jul 17, 2012
82
2
Thanks for your insight. It is hard to believe Canon is still around 35-40nm. The new iphone is 7nm! I think the 1dx has two digic processors and also an AF processor/sensor, so it wouldn't be hard to believe a pro level R camera having multiple processors to accomplish these advanced tasks.
Given that Canon was still using 500nm lithography for things like 5DmkIII, 40nm today would if anything surprisingly small. They did have 180nm fab by 2012, but used it initially only for smaller (Powershot) sensors. I don't know what they're actually doing now, maybe it is indeed in 35-40nm range.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 28, 2013
1,437
88
65
Canon salesman, more likely. Sharper lenses don't magically create more megapixels on a sensor that's smaller than the 5DS/5DSR. Sure, if you're using a sub-standard lens on the 5DSR and comparing it with the EOS R you're going to get poor results. But a good lens on the 5DSR will outperform any option on the EOS R right now in terms of resolution.
I could get super technical but I wont. It was a "technician", point one. The weak spot in using the 5DS has been lenses, not the camera, point two. If the lenses don't have the resolving power or have inherent aberations they are not going to give you the full benefits of a 50MP sensor. At what point did I say sharper lenses create more megapixels? The sensors are the same size, the pixel pitch is different!

The benefits of the shorter back focus is the ability to create concentric lens designs that improve edge to edge sharpness and minimise shading, aberations and distortion.
 

TAF

EOS RP
Feb 26, 2012
344
35
I wonder if it will be the same body size?

I have yet to hold the R (I am looking forward to it), but if it proves too small for my average size hands, then there would be a decently large market segment looking for something in a more traditional size.

And larger would mean easier heat sinking, and hence easier to enhance video capabilities.

The 1Dx is more than specs, it is ergonomics. Which is why I don't own one - it is too big, and the M5 too small. I find the 5D3 'just right'. I hope the R proves to be as well, since it looks like it would be a very nice upgrade to my 5D3.

This rumor suggests Canon is going to fill out an entire line of mirrorless R's, fairly quickly. They've got to cover all the bases...
 

Aregal

I'm New Here
Oct 3, 2018
14
4
I feel the flagship will literally be a 1DxII in mirrorless form much like the R is the 5DIV in mirrorless form. Canon always considered the 1D line as their flagship line. Also, Canon uses their sensor tech until the last drop, maximizing profit while liquidating fabrication stock.

That being said, just look to the 1DxII specs for this pro mirrorless body. Add, Canon log and 10-bit 422 hdmi and rec.2020. “True” successor to the legendary 1Dc.

The 4K 1.3x crop and 120fps 1080p will sway people over 1DxII owners like PeterMcKinnon, CaseyNeistst, and DanMace.

In terms of price, my guess is around $4500

It’s all making sense now....

https://petapixel.com/2017/10/19/canon-patents-giant-dslr-flip-screen/
 

BeenThere

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 4, 2012
859
187
I feel the flagship will literally be a 1DxII in mirrorless form much like the R is the 5DIV in mirrorless form. Canon always considered the 1D line as their flagship line. Also, Canon uses their sensor tech until the last drop, maximizing profit while liquidating fabrication stock.

That being said, just look to the 1DxII specs for this pro mirrorless body. Add, Canon log and 10-bit 422 hdmi and rec.2020. “True” successor to the legendary 1Dc.

The 4K 1.3x crop and 120fps 1080p will sway people over 1DxII owners like PeterMcKinnon, CaseyNeistst, and DanMace.

In terms of price, my guess is around $4500

It’s all making sense now....

https://petapixel.com/2017/10/19/canon-patents-giant-dslr-flip-screen/
The R is not a 5D4 mirrorless. Just look at the servo focus priority frame rate. Similarly, the R Pro will not be a mirrorless 1Dx2. Canon has some more work to do to get there. It will happen, but not in 2019.
 
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bestimage

EOS M50
Mar 3, 2012
40
2
Noone is talking about sensor quality.

Also, can anyone explain why DSLRs/MILC don't have 16 bit color as opposed to medium format. May be Canon should introduce 16 bit color in their pro bodies
 
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Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,550
771
Just my idea: To make DPAF enabled cameras faster you have to increase the speed of sensor read out. Just in case of the "simple" M50 you have to read out millions of pixels ten or twenty times a second to provide data for the AF math. Maybe you need a new sensor which is logically divided in 4 quadrants each processed by one DIGIC CPU which communicate together especially if AF near the "division lines" is needed and combine their data into one image. Processing speed might be enhanced by a factor of 2 or 3 if you take the communication overhead between the CPUs into account.

Canon gave us "digital retina", they made a fundamental decision, and while being slower than competitors sensors readout they gave us a lot of creative freedom by turning ~60 ... 80% of the image area into an AF sensor! For my style of photography (landscape, macro, some mild action) it is a big thing because I can do macro of leaves in mild wind (servo AF enabled) reliably which was never before possible with my cameras without restrictions from AF points clustered in the center of the image!
I believe that Canon has already described the DPAF uses only at the selected area to do DPAF in their white paper. It does not use all the pixels to do DPAF, the speed of calculation is the bottleneck.

"
Figure 44 illustrates the manner in which the sets of dual pixel outputs from the CMOS image sensor are
sent to the DIGIC 8 processing microcircuit that was developed by Canon. Within this processor, these
streams are separately fed to the primary RGB video processing system (where the two photodiode
signals are summed) and to a data processing system that analyzes the phase difference between the
two and makes all of the decision-making and data processing associated with the Auto Focus system.
While all of the millions of photosites are delivering the “dual pixel” data, the operational aspects of
Auto Focus dictate that only a select number of these are activated at any given time.
This is because
the camera operator (or for the camera, when AF methods like Face Detect + Tracking are active) will
make the decision on which particular subject within the overall picture frame is chosen for sharpest
focus. Consequently, a cursor type system must be implemented to facilitate this choice. Experiences
gained in the early generations of Dual Pixel CMOS AF systems produced the following:
1. Broad request to provide spatial movement of the sampling area — so that different subjects
within a given scene can be selected for sharpest focus
2. Ranging performance improvement is needed in low scene illumination situations
3. Improvement in accuracy of the system as ISO setting increased
4. Auto focus should ideally be a realtime action (or as close as possible to realtime) so speed
of calculations should be increased
5. Improvement in the calculating algorithm to elevate reliability
A more dense sampling lattice of photosites for the cursor was developed to increase sensing sensitivity
and accuracy over a wider range of scene illumination and camera ISO settings. The cursor size can be
adjusted to accommodate the specific AF needs of a given scene and situation.
37
 

razorzec

700D
Sep 16, 2016
30
36
Mars
There's no way Canon will pull off a 50MP sensor with a full sensor (no crop) readout in 4K.
I never said Full sensor readout in 4K. It could be line skipped 4K like what they are doing in 1080p. that's not that difficult for canon to do

however i will also not conclude right away that Canon cannot bring full sensor readout 4K in their next camera. There could be a prototype in their office at work. just that no one knows at this point.
 

Aregal

I'm New Here
Oct 3, 2018
14
4
The R is not a 5D4 mirrorless. Just look at the servo focus priority frame rate. Similarly, the R Pro will not be a mirrorless 1Dx2. Canon has some more work to do to get there. It will happen, but not in 2019.
That’s because the R doesn’t have the AF module that the 5DIV has that resides under the mirror. I was talking in terms of sensor and on-sensor AF for video.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 6D MK II
Feb 28, 2013
1,437
88
65
===

AND the current theory is that Apple is STILL in the Hunt to buy ALL of Canon ...OR... get an exclusive deal on their chipmaking expertise. (Canon is Number 2 or Number 3 in the world for overall chip making toolsets). Again, I suspect Apple is looking to take CPU/GPU Chip and Super High Resolution 8K Display production ENTIRELY IN-HOUSE which means they ARE LIKELY to buy EITHER Canon or Texas Instruments.

In MY opinion, I suggest Canon simply goes to Qualcomm and buy those Multi-core SnapDragon 845 ARM chips which can EASILY handle 4K and 8K imaging at a full 60 fps WITH real-time colour correction and effects. That would boost the IQ of EVERY Canon camera in a package barely the size of a postage stamp!
And at $80 to $120 US wholesale for the SnapDragon 845, Canon can EASILY get a discount to keep the chips in the $70 to $85 range to make it worth their while!

---

On a secondary note, my Euro sources STILL HAD NO IDEA the R-series was coming. They were adamant it was a Vixia/XF-405 replacement OR an XC-15 replacement. It WAS a new XF-series that was introduced (I should ALSO note that the new XF-series video camera is STILL A GREAT CAMERA). I am inclined to believe that the XC-15 (XC-20?) with an interchangeable lens and 60 fps 4k/120 fps1080 on a one inch sensor is coming and THAT is what is PROBABLY going to be announced in January since we saw NO such announcement in September.

I am still rather adamant about the in-the-wild testing of a VERY LARGE SENSOR Medium Format 50 megapixel high frame rate combined stills/video camera from Canon coming very-soon-now! Too many sources have been saying the same thing for over two years now!

---

On a final note, wait until you see the coming surprise camera from an unspecified manufacturer................WHAT A DOOOZIE !!!!!
I don't know what bottle you drink from but your assessment of Apple & Canon is pure fantasy. Where does the synergy come from? Canon as well as making photographic equipment make office & domestic printers, photographic printers, machines for making CMOS sensors and security products, principally through various acquisitions in both hardware & software. They also industrially now sell CMOS sensors.

Apple design cell phones, computers, tablets, electronic watches, Apple TV and develop software. They provide services such as Apple Pay, App. Store & Apple Music so how is Canon going to benefit Apple or visa-versa.

According to Forbes Canon has a market cap. of $ 46.5bn and whilst Apple is supposedly the first $ 1 trillion company and has a large cash mountain you've really got to have a compelling argument to pay a premium on Canon market cap. It would mean Canon owns patents that have attached well developed, ground-breaking technology that Apple will desperately need. If that was the case Canon market cap would be much higher.
 

highdesertmesa

EOS T7i
Apr 17, 2017
70
38
Placitas, NM
www.flickr.com
Canon may be merge high MP with high FPS. 30--36 MP, 12 FPS. possible 6K video
I can't believe only one person in this entire thread gets this. Since Fujifilm will be releasing a GFX 100S with IBIS, 100mp, and full-frame 4K/10-bit/30fps, then certainly Canon and Nikon can produce a camera with high FPS at the 50-60mp range on a full frame sensor.
 

scyrene

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 4, 2013
2,510
395
UK
www.flickr.com
I'm not sure there's an "exodus" under way but people are definitely switching.
People must be switching in both directions, or else their marketshare would be sliding...

If I was being generous to the OP, perhaps they meant a potential exodus that could have happened if no FF MILC had been announced (given so many rivals have done/are about to).