For birds: 500 f/4L II or ?

I'm an amateur bird photographer, and since it's my 40th birthday this year my wife has agreed that I should splurge on a new lens (or other gear). I have a 70D body that I usually pair with a 400 f/5.6L. In low light, sometimes I use a 70-200 f/4L with a 1.4x extender to take advantage of the image stabilization.

My current frustrations are the lack of IS on the 400mm and the relatively noisy output from 70D at ISO 800 and up. I'm contemplating the 500mm f/4 L IS II, which is my dream lens, but also seems like an insanely expensive and specialized purchase for an amateur.

Instead of dropping $9k on the 500/4 II, I'm thinking of a couple alternatives:

1) 5Dm4 body, and perhaps the 100-400 II.

The 5Dm4 (or 5Dm3) would give me much better low-light performance, plus f/8 autofocus. Trading my 400/5.6 in for the new 100-400 would give me IS, though it's probably a wash on the optics at 400mm. Plus I'd get improved performance with my other lenses, not just at 500mm.

2) 1st gen 500 f/4L IS

These still seem to go for $5k+ and are a lot heavier. IS isn't nearly as good. Optics should still be very good, though.

3) Upgraded camera body plus Sigma 150-600 zoom

I've seen a lot of people raving about these lenses, and the extra reach + IS would get a lot of shots I currently miss.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything like the sharpness and creamy background from a big white lens. If I buy the 500/4 II, I won't be upgrading my 70D this year, but the extra ~5 stops total would open up a lot more options.

Any thoughts (or alternate suggestions) for people who've used these combinations?
 

unfocused

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I'm also dreaming of the 500 f4, but to be more prudent, here are some things to consider:

The Sigma Contemporary is very good for the price.

The 100-400 II is excellent.

You will lose reach with the 5DIV, but you will gain significantly in high ISO performance.

With the newest generation of Canon bodies, you have multiple f8 focus points, so you can pair the 100-400 with the 1.4 extender and not lose too much in the way of autofocus or sharpness. But, you will lose one stop of performance.

Although the newer 500 is lighter, it is still a huge and heavy lens.

The IS on the 100-400 really won't help with birds in flight, so you may not see much of a gain there over the 400 f5.6.

I would recommend that you rent a 5DIV and a 100-400 II for a week and see if you are satisfied with the reach. Since you already have the 1.4 extender, you can test that out with the lens and judge for yourself.
 
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unfocused said:
I would recommend that you rent a 5DIV and a 100-400 II for a week and see if you are satisfied with the reach. Since you already have the 1.4 extender, you can test that out with the lens and judge for yourself.

Thanks, that's a good suggestion. The more I think about it, 5DIV + 100-400 II seems like a good, prudent choice. Great lens, I'd have decent reach w/ AF using the 1.4x. Plus the 5DIV would be much better for macro work (already have 100 f/2.8L macro).

~$5k seems quite a bit more practical for an amateur, plus I could sell my 400/5.6 and possibly my 70-200/4.

Decisions...
 
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i could use a 100-400 ii on an 7dii, which was a fantastic combination. But this dense sensor brings the lens to the limits, i barely got more resolution with the 1.4iii extender, but more shake, more noise (1 stop more ISO) and reduced sharpness in general.

In opposite to it, the 500ii lens better accepted the 2x extender than the 100-400 took the 1.4x, which means it is another league for reach.

so the 500ii is a dream lens, and if your government agreed and you can afford it, you maybe should this dream allow to come true, enjoy it !

One addition: as nice as full frame is, if you are looking for more reach, you maybe should not move from crop to Fullframe at the same time, or you should consider the 600mm lens..... but all is a question of weight and costs. i crop sensor is always better than using an extender. so a 80D would be the next step for more reach
 
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I note that what you don't say is 'I wish I had more reach than 400mm'. In which case I think the 100-400 Mkii with the 5DIV will be an excellent choice - and add the 1.4 mkiii extender as well (with the mkiii you get all-point at f8, with the mkii extender it is a narrow strip of centre points only).

The focus on the 5DIV is better than the 70D so although you lose some reach, the focus of the 5DIV is much more reliable and you get more 'hits', and the image quality above ISO 1000 means that at dawn/dusk the 'reach' advantage of the 70D will disappear altogether.

Of course there is always the 400DO Mk ii ;D
 
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hendrik-sg said:
so the 500ii is a dream lens, and if your government agreed and you can afford it, you maybe should this dream allow to come true, enjoy it !

Yeah, that's the flipside. But it seems like a lot of lens to pair with the 70D (which is fine but does not have a great sensor IMO). And the 100-400 would be a great overall wildlife lens. And being half the weight/size, the 100-400 would be much easier to travel with.
 
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Mikehit said:
Of course there is always the 400DO Mk ii ;D

Oh no, even more choices!

I definitely would like more reach than 400mm, as I end up a cropping a lot. But I have the 1.4x III, so maybe 100-400 would be good enough with f/8 AF.

If I already had a camera body I was really satisfied with, this would be an easier choice!
 
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The 5DIV is a beautiful camera - I rented it for a weekend and really enjoyed it. And in darker conditions the images are eminently usable at ISO 12.800 provided you don't need to crop much.

The reason I mentioned the 400DOii (naughty of me, I know) is that if this is a one-off offer from your wife, then for the price of the 500f4 mkii plus a bit more cash you could get the 400DOii and the 5DIV. But to be honest, the image quality of the 100-400ii in the centre of the image is about on par with the 400DOii (except for shallower DOF, obviously).
I got the 400DOii because it gives me the the option of 560mm/800mm in a lighter package than the 500mm f4 and so far I have no regrets. But the zoom gives me greater versatility in a more compact package.


So you really need to give some thought to what it is you want from the set-up.
General use with birds as an interest - 5DIV plus 100-400 mkii
Serious birding - 400DOii, but I can't help thinking that with that lens you would want the 5DIV anyway to take most advantage of it.

I was taking photos at a gannet colony at the weekend and among the hundreds of people, there were many people with serious camera gear and the most common combination by far was the 7D2 plus 100-400ii. So I think pairing the lens with the 5DIV should be the front runner for you - it should be the bench mark against which you ask 'do I need a better lens'. One thing I would hate is for you to get the 400DOii and you take it out only for 'special occasions' because of the weight.

This is serious money - can you rent any of these first?
 
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PCM-madison

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Previous posts have made many good points. A middle ground that has not been mentioned is the 300mm F2.8 L IS II. With a pair of extenders, I find it to be very flexible and useful for birds. I use mine with a 7D mII and 6D. For low light, the full frame and F2.8 are hard to beat. The 7D mII + 300mm + 2X extender are also very useful especially with good light. Here are a few recent examples with the wood ducks and red winged blackbird shot with the 7D mII + 300mm + 2X extender during daylight and the eastern screech owl shot 15 minutes after sunset with the 6D and 300mm @ F2.8.
 

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I bought the 500 f4 this year, it is a fantastic lens that works well with both teleconverters. I have had a long progression before getting this lens and only decided to get it when I new I needed handholdable > 600mm regularly. The new 100-400 is still my most used lens that takes the 1.4 teleconverter quite well.

Other options I would look into would be sigma or tamron 150-600 for the lowest cost option, Canon or sigma 100-400 if reach is not the issue (canon is fantastic, sigma is likely good but significantly cheaper). Next options would be the Sigma 120-300 which takes a 2x teleconverter very well (I still have this lens, it is sharp but very heavy), new Sigma 500 f4 when available and probably the best other option, the new canon 400 DO. That lens is very sharp, very light, relatively small and can handle the 1.4 teleconverter nicely (and the 2x ok).

As a person who does mostly nature, and most of that birds the camera I use most now is the Canon 5ds....the detail is fantastic (and you can crop like crazy) and the autofocus is very good (not as good as the 1 series and doesn't have f8 except on the center point). 5d IV will give you a few more shots per second and all points at f8 but it is hard to go back to the lower resolution once you have shots with feather details the 5ds has shown.
Red by Barry Scully, on Flickr
 
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What you could buy with $9k? I think you should search more. Sigma has released 500mm f4 OS Sport ($6k) which from what I've read, got a lot of praise. Yes i had no any experience with it, but at least i give you another option, that could give you more space to spend your bucks on better camera. If you have a 500mm lens you would get rid of your 400mm right? With the extra cash i think you could get a very mint canon 1DX or brand new 5D4. I've heard a guy in other forum got his 500mm f4L IS II only $7k brandnew.
 
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nc0b

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I have both the 400mm f/5.6 and the 100-400mm II, and for BIF I still prefer the prime since I can limit the close focus distance to 8.5m. I wish the zoom had both the 3m focus limit and a 10m focus limit. The problem I have with the zoom is it can get lost in the sky, and when it focuses down to 3 meters I cannot recover focus as I cannot locate the bird any longer. I rarely cannot recover focus with the prime. On the other hand, for general wildlife, I definitely prefer the zoom with IS. Attached is a hawk taken with the prime, and a pronghorn with the zoom. Both were taken with a 6D using center-point AF. I also have a 5DsR, and completely agree that the cropping ability it offers is amazing. The zoom does take a 1.4X III quite well when used with the 5DsR, though I haven't generally needed that combination. I strongly recommend keeping your 400mm f/5.6 for BIF, and I doubt you can get more than $800 for it on the used market. There is no way I am going to spend $9K on a lens, and I question I could hand hold it anyway. On a trip to Alaska a fellow traveler did have the Sigma Sport 150-600mm, and I later saw some of his whale and wildlife shots which were quite impressive. He let me take a few shots with his lens and my 6D, but I felt the lens was too heavy for me at 70 years old.
 

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My experience with birds is that you never get enough reach and you´ll need good high ISO performance. Shutter speed is not just for shake, it is also for sharpness when things move.

A 500 f4L IS II is a fantastic lens which works very well with the xIII extenders and it is smaller and lighter than the 600 f4L IS II. If you think the Sigma is an alternative, I suggest you wait to see how the expected Canon 150-600 will be (provided it does not take for ever ...).

You can have an L-lens for decades, whereas a camera body is outdated after just a few years. If you are budget limited, buy the 500 and keep the 70D, until you can upgrade to a 5DIV. Alternatively, if you want to do BIF, there are some very attractive prices for mint condition 1DX bodies out there. 12 fps is quite fun and quite useful.
 
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AlanF

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In agreement with nc0b and stachasticmotions, I much prefer to use my 100-400mm Mk II on my 5DSR than on my 5DIV as I get significantly better resolution. Further, it works well with the 1.4xTC. To get the full benefit pf the 500 Mk II, you will have to upgrade from a 70D.

You will need a tripod or monopod to use the 500mm, and get incredibly good results when applicable. But, if you are an opportunistic bird photographer like me, you will lose most of your opportunities of birds that you come across at random.

You should also consider Sigma lenses.The new 100-400 C is getting very good reviews and I might get one to add to my selection. My own Sigma 150-600mm C has as good IQ at 400mm as has my 100-400mm II and is better at 600mm than the Canon + 1.4xTC. But, the speed of AF is not as good. But, you must test the Sigmas to make sure you have a good one.

Investing in glass is indeed more long term than in bodies but you need a decent body to get the best out of glass.
 
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AlanF said:
In agreement with nc0b and stachasticmotions, I much prefer to use my 100-400mm Mk II on my 5DSR than on my 5DIV as I get significantly better resolution. Further, it works well with the 1.4xTC. To get the full benefit pf the 500 Mk II, you will have to upgrade from a 70D.

I'll have to look into the 5DS/5DSR too.

AlanF said:
You will need a tripod or monopod to use the 500mm, and get incredibly good results when applicable. But, if you are an opportunistic bird photographer like me, you will lose most of your opportunities of birds that you come across at random.

That's another consideration. I can't imagine I'd just carry the 500mm around. For that matter, I don't carry the 400mm when I'm walking around casually; it's too specialized. The more I think of it, I think the 100-400 would get a lot more use. I enjoy my 70-200 quite a bit, but it's too short for anything but the closest (or largest) birds.

As much as I love the critical sharpness and buttery background of a great white, I'm trying to be honest with myself about which lens I'd actually get the most use out of.

AlanF said:
You should also consider Sigma lenses.The new 100-400 C is getting very good reviews and I might get one to add to my selection. My own Sigma 150-600mm C has as good IQ at 400mm as has my 100-400mm II and is better at 600mm than the Canon + 1.4xTC. But, the speed of AF is not as good. But, you must test the Sigmas to make sure you have a good one.

Investing in glass is indeed more long term than in bodies but you need a decent body to get the best out of glass.

All things being equal, I'd much prefer investing in glass, but I've also been frustrated with the noise from the 70D's sensor. I had been considering getting a 5DIII this year, but if I make a camera body part of this birthday splurge, I might as well go for the latest model.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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AlanF said:
You will need a tripod or monopod to use the 500mm, and get incredibly good results when applicable. But, if you are an opportunistic bird photographer like me, you will lose most of your opportunities of birds that you come across at random.

Perhaps 'need' is too strong a word. ;) This is a 600/4 II, which is ~20% heavier than a 500/4 II.

index.php


I usually bring a monopod (in this case, it's hanging from the pack) and use it if I'll be standing in one spot for a while, but if I'm just walking and shooting, handheld works.
 
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AlanF

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It's good that you are seriously reading the replies and responding. Some people post questions and disappear.

I went on a birding trip in Portugal in April with a very experienced guide who had a 500mm II + 1.4xTC welded on plus a 1DX II. He had a Manfrotto monopod with legs. His results were better than mine using a 400mm DO II + 2xTC + 5DIV, despite the theoretical extra reach of my gear. Art Morris runs a famous bird photography site, and you might want to read his latest blog http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/ He uses the 100-400mm II a lot and has his 600mm II for more extreme occasions.
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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NancyP said:
Neuroanatomist, is that one of the Cotton Carrier add-on supports that work with the vest system? How well does that work?

Nope, you're seeing part of the Blackrapid Sport-L strap that I use to carry the lens (attached to the RRS replacement foot with a Kirk 1" clamp for easy swapping from strap to monopod or gimbal).
 
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AlanF said:
Asher
It's good that you are seriously reading the replies and responding. Some people post questions and disappear.

I really appreciate all of the advice. This is a huge purchase for me. Even the cheapest option (new body + 100-400) would be the biggest purchase I've made other than a house/car.

AlanF said:
I went on a birding trip in Portugal in April with a very experienced guide who had a 500mm II + 1.4xTC welded on plus a 1DX II. He had a Manfrotto monopod with legs. His results were better than mine using a 400mm DO II + 2xTC + 5DIV, despite the theoretical extra reach of my gear. Art Morris runs a famous bird photography site, and you might want to read his latest blog http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/ He uses the 100-400mm II a lot and has his 600mm II for more extreme occasions.

I have some of Art's books, and I really enjoy his pictures. I got the 400/5.6 in part due to his recommendation, so if he's happy with the 100-400 II that's a good indicator.

My wife has also pointed out that the cost of a 500mm II might be better spent (in part) on a birding trip, particularly an instructional tour.

At this point, I'm leaning towards the 100-400 II. My wife and I plan to take a vacation this fall -- perhaps to Italy -- to celebrate our 10th anniversary, and I'd probably bring the 100-400 for general tourist stuff and opportunistic birding. But if I got the 500 II, I doubt I'd take it on that trip. Too big, too specialized. So the decision seems to be a 500 II that only sees use in my backyard and on birding-specific outings versus a 100-400 that comes along whenever there's a chance of wildlife sightings.
 
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