Fps rates 12/20

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,386
200
Could anyone educate me why R will shoot 20 fps when using the LCD and only 12 while shooting from viewfinder? It is a mirrorless camera, so I am confused.

I can understand this with 1dx3 as the mirror will stay locked when shooting with LCD.

But how does this relate to a mirrorless? Thank you.
 

Codebunny

EOS RP
Sep 5, 2018
249
188
On the R5 it is 12 FPS with a mechanical shutter and 20FPS with a electronic shutter. Basically it is down to if the shutter closes between frames or not. The 1DX Mark III can do 16 FPS view finder mechanical and 20 FPS mechanical when the mirror is locked up, this is likely due to not being able to move the mirror out the way fast enough and it'll have a electronic shutter too.

The pros and cons of mechanical vs electronic shutters are not something I have first hand experience with, though I believe there are some downsides in some situations with the electronic shutter.

In terms of shooting speed, the 1DX Mark III will outperform the R5. Whether or not this effects the subjects you shoot is another story. I am going to try both a R5 and 1DX III for wildlife and see which I like better.
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,386
200
On the R5 it is 12 FPS with a mechanical shutter and 20FPS with a electronic shutter. Basically it is down to if the shutter closes between frames or not. The 1DX Mark III can do 16 FPS view finder mechanical and 20 FPS mechanical when the mirror is locked up, this is likely due to not being able to move the mirror out the way fast enough and it'll have a electronic shutter too.

The pros and cons of mechanical vs electronic shutters are not something I have first hand experience with, though I believe there are some downsides in some situations with the electronic shutter.

In terms of shooting speed, the 1DX Mark III will outperform the R5. Whether or not this effects the subjects you shoot is another story. I am going to try both a R5 and 1DX III for wildlife and see which I like better.
Thx. So the difference is that in R the shutter will not close? Am still not very clear. Will keep exploring till I get it. Thank you again.
 

Viggo

EOS 5D SR
Dec 13, 2010
4,423
1,065
Thx. So the difference is that in R the shutter will not close? Am still not very clear. Will keep exploring till I get it. Thank you again.
R5 at 20 fps there is no shutter it’s just the sensor being read out. So there is nothing mechanical that need to block/unblock the sensor. At 12 FPS there’s a mechanical physical shutter moving in front of the sensor.
 

mikekeck

EOS T7i
Mar 14, 2018
56
246
Texas
Does anyone know if there are disadvantages to using the electronic shutter? Codebunny mentioned there might be some, and I assume there are--otherwise, why bother with the mechanical shutter?
 

padam

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 26, 2015
700
323
Does anyone know if there are disadvantages to using the electronic shutter?
First and foremost, there are rolling shutter artifacts, horizontal motion may be blurred out.
Or, if the camera is not held still the whole image becomes skewed (so always better to use burst mode as some images will not get skewed if the camera is still at that short interval).
Secondly, there is horizontal banding caused by LED flickering, it may be more or less prominent depending on the lights and the chosen shutter speed. It can completely destroy an image, best to be tested in advance.

Also the image quality is reduced over the mechanical shutter, less bit depth, possibly reduced dynamic range and more noise, the sensor is running in a different state, when the electronic shutter is being used.

So if it is not necessary, the 12fps on the EOS R5 will be much better in most cases.
While the 20fps is another option if the circumstances are good for it, or silent operation is necessary.
If there is no horizontal banding or rolling shutter, and the images are not heavily edited, one will not be able to tell the image quality difference.

The Sony A9 series uses a stacked BSI-CMOS sensor with a very fast readout designed around this electronic shutter mode, which minimises these issues, makes the AF work faster and also introduces blackout-free viewfinder experience (but the dynamic range is always reduced a little bit, so it has other trade-offs).
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,386
200
First and foremost, there are rolling shutter artifacts, horizontal motion may be blurred out.
Or, if the camera is not held still the whole image becomes skewed (so always better to use burst mode as some images will not get skewed if the camera is still at that short interval).
Secondly, there is horizontal banding caused by LED flickering, it may be more or less prominent depending on the lights and the chosen shutter speed. It can completely destroy an image, best to be tested in advance.

Also the image quality is reduced over the mechanical shutter, less bit depth, possibly reduced dynamic range and more noise, the sensor is running in a different state, when the electronic shutter is being used.

So if it is not necessary, the 12fps on the EOS R5 will be much better in most cases.
While the 20fps is another option if the circumstances are good for it, or silent operation is necessary.
If there is no horizontal banding or rolling shutter, and the images are not heavily edited, one will not be able to tell the image quality difference.

The Sony A9 series uses a stacked BSI-CMOS sensor with a very fast readout designed around this electronic shutter mode, which minimises these issues, makes the AF work faster and also introduces blackout-free viewfinder experience (but the dynamic range is always reduced a little bit, so it has other trade-offs).
I am talking still photography sir. So rolling shutter?? "IQ reduced over mechanical shutter" I do not understand that. How can that be?
 

jd7

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 3, 2013
789
155
On the R5 it is 12 FPS with a mechanical shutter and 20FPS with a electronic shutter. Basically it is down to if the shutter closes between frames or not. The 1DX Mark III can do 16 FPS view finder mechanical and 20 FPS mechanical when the mirror is locked up, this is likely due to not being able to move the mirror out the way fast enough and it'll have a electronic shutter too.
I assume you are correct in saying that having to move the mirror is the reason the1Dx II has a lower maximum FPS when using the OVF compared with live view. However, it's not clear to me that is actually an answer to Sanj's question.

On a DSLR, if you're using an OVF you have a mirror which has to move up and down, so it's not hard to imagine the maximum FPS being limited by how quickly the mirror can be moved. When you switch to live view, the mirror is locked up out of the way, so the mirror can no longer be the rate limiting factor. In that situation, it's not hard to imagine the rate limiting factor being how fast the mechanical shutter can move if you are using it, or how quickly the sensor can be read out if you're using electronic shutter.

On a 1Dx III, the maximum FPS jumps from 16 FPS with the OVF (ie mirror in play) to 20 FPS in live view. However, do we know whether that maximum FPS in live view depends on whether you using mechanical or electronic shutter, or is the maximum FPS the same either way? I think you are saying that even in live view, the maximum FPS would be 16 if using the mechanical shutter, and it only goes up to 20 if you use electronic shutter, yes?

In any event, on an R5, there is never any mirror to worry about, so moving a mirror is never the rate limiting factor. So, if the R5 has lower maximum FPS when using the mechanical shutter, it would seem to mean that moving the mechanical shutter must be the rate limiting factor when using the mechanical shutter, regardless of whether you use EVF or rear LCD. Similarly, if using the electronic shutter and the electronic shutter imposes a limit of 20 FPS, the electronic shutter is the rate limited factor, again regardless of whether you use EVF or rear LCD.

However, Sanj's question is why the R5 can shoot faster if you use the rear LCD rather than the EVF. I haven't checked the R5 specs, but if that is true, Sanj's question seems like a good one. Why should changing between rear LCD and EVF change maximum FPS? Perhaps there is something about the EVF screen which means it cannot update as quickly as the rear LCD?

Any chance Sanj has misunderstood the R5 specs, and the R5 shoots 12 FPS with mechanical shutter and 20 FPS with electronic shutter, but it doesn't matter whether you are using the EVF or rear LCD?

EDIT: I just had a look at Canon's development announce for the R5. It says 12 FPS using mechanical shutter and 20 FPS using "silent shutter". So, it seems to me the maximum FPS depends on whether you use mechanical shutter or electronic shutter. I assume that means you get those speeds regardless of whether you use the EVF or rear LCD though. (Any reason to doubt that?)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jack Douglas

padam

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 26, 2015
700
323
I am talking still photography sir. So rolling shutter?? "IQ reduced over mechanical shutter" I do not understand that. How can that be?
Imagine you have an EOS R and you are capturing a 3:2 video frame from the whole sensor and output it as a raw image (Which is way more taxing on the camera than Canon's 1.7x 4k 16:9 crop, as that one collects way less data in a more compressed format). That's how the electronic shutter works more or less.
Also with the R5 the camera needs to compress the 40+ MP raw files shot at 20fps, otherwise it fills up the buffer in no time.
It may even be a slight crop as well in 20fps mode, we don't know that.
But we know the 90D and M6 Mark II do have a silent raw burst mode, which crops in on the sensor slightly (but they only have the Digic 8 processor, not the Digic X, and 8k in the EOS R5 suggests the new sensor is quicker as well)
Luckily the compressed CR3 raw files show basically imperceptible degradation.
But the bit depth will probably need to be reduced from 14-bit as well, so there is more noise in the shadows if you push them like crazy (which is unlikely in practise).

Everyone complaining about the 1DX III can understand now that with just 20MP, there is much less compromises for high-speed shooting, it can probably do 20fps 14-bit uncompressed, so no different compared to single shooting and the degradation with the electronic shutter is much less as well.

If you want to see graphs about how using the rolling shutter or the quickest burst modes can affect image quality with mirrorless cameras, check out Jim Kasson's blog, he measured a lot of cameras, but no Canon cameras unfortunately.

Photographylife has another excellent article on the topic.

I've written everything down as clearly as possible. Basically, you switch your camera to silent burst mode, and you test the image quality (find the shutter speed where the banding is least prominent with the LED lights), and decide accordingly, whether to use it or not. Simple as that.
For instance, if you want to shoot street while walking, you will get a ton of rolling shutter in electronic shutter mode, while you are taking pictures, you need to keep the camera as still as possible, you move (meanwhile the buffer clears), and you hold the camera completely still again for a few moments, while the camera captures images silently, there may still be some artifacts, but way less when the camera is in motion.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mikekeck

Pape

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 31, 2018
508
301
Sounds like sport cameras will be still long 20mpixel ones ,untill readout speed developed lot better to make electronic shutter work flawlessly :).
I isnt noise performance what holds them down to 20
 

padam

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 26, 2015
700
323
Sounds like sport cameras will be still long 20mpixel ones ,untill readout speed developed lot better to make electronic shutter work flawlessly :).
I isnt noise performance what holds them down to 20
If the EOS R5 is tracking AF at 12fps, that makes it a very good camera for shooting sports compared to a 5D IV, which is also used for this purpose.
The M6 Mark II tracks at 14fps already, so it is probably not a misleading specification with focus locked in 12fps mode.

It is certainly possible do design a mirrorless camera with big, higher-voltage battery like the 1DX and with a very quick mechanical shutter (without the mirror flapping up and down, it is easier to do), so the electronic shutter is not a necessity, but the sensor-based AF system also needs to keep up.
 

Viggo

EOS 5D SR
Dec 13, 2010
4,423
1,065
I assume you are correct in saying that having to move the mirror is the reason the1Dx II has a lower maximum FPS when using the OVF compared with live view. However, it's not clear to me that is actually an answer to Sanj's question.

On a DSLR, if you're using an OVF you have a mirror which has to move up and down, so it's not hard to imagine the maximum FPS being limited by how quickly the mirror can be moved. When you switch to live view, the mirror is locked up out of the way, so the mirror can no longer be the rate limiting factor. In that situation, it's not hard to imagine the rate limiting factor being how fast the mechanical shutter can move if you are using it, or how quickly the sensor can be read out if you're using electronic shutter.

On a 1Dx III, the maximum FPS jumps from 16 FPS with the OVF (ie mirror in play) to 20 FPS in live view. However, do we know whether that maximum FPS in live view depends on whether you using mechanical or electronic shutter, or is the maximum FPS the same either way? I think you are saying that even in live view, the maximum FPS would be 16 if using the mechanical shutter, and it only goes up to 20 if you use electronic shutter, yes?

In any event, on an R5, there is never any mirror to worry about, so moving a mirror is never the rate limiting factor. So, if the R5 has lower maximum FPS when using the mechanical shutter, it would seem to mean that moving the mechanical shutter must be the rate limiting factor when using the mechanical shutter, regardless of whether you use EVF or rear LCD. Similarly, if using the electronic shutter and the electronic shutter imposes a limit of 20 FPS, the electronic shutter is the rate limited factor, again regardless of whether you use EVF or rear LCD.

However, Sanj's question is why the R5 can shoot faster if you use the rear LCD rather than the EVF. I haven't checked the R5 specs, but if that is true, Sanj's question seems like a good one. Why should changing between rear LCD and EVF change maximum FPS? Perhaps there is something about the EVF screen which means it cannot update as quickly as the rear LCD?

Any chance Sanj has misunderstood the R5 specs, and the R5 shoots 12 FPS with mechanical shutter and 20 FPS with electronic shutter, but it doesn't matter whether you are using the EVF or rear LCD?

EDIT: I just had a look at Canon's development announce for the R5. It says 12 FPS using mechanical shutter and 20 FPS using "silent shutter". So, it seems to me the maximum FPS depends on whether you use mechanical shutter or electronic shutter. I assume that means you get those speeds regardless of whether you use the EVF or rear LCD though. (Any reason to doubt that?)
The 1dx3 does 20 fps with BOTH mechanical and electronic shutter when the mirror is flipped up. That’s double of what the A9ii does and 4 times faster than the a9.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sharlin and jd7

Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
619
576
Hamburg, Germany
To give another way to look at it:

There are two separate components that need to move to capture an image with the OVF. There's a mirror and a shutter. The mirror blocks the image from hitting the sensor when it is down and redirects it to the OVF. The shutter opens and closes to start and stop light from hitting the image sensor.

To get a practical feel for how that works I highly recommend the video from this YouTube video, showing a 7D in action at super slow motion:


He also has a demo on rolling shutter and explains the difference in this video. The channel as a whole is a great mixture of entertainment, stunning imagery and education.

The mirror has to do a more complicated motion, and it is also used to bring light to the PDAF sensors (not DPAF), so it can't remain up indefinitely if you want servo AF. Therefore the motion of the mirror limits the number of FPS in EVF mode.

In LiveView or in a mirrorless body, the mirror is permanently up or isn't needed, as there's no OVF and the AF sensors are integrated in the image sensor. But a shutter is still necessary if you want an image like you're used to from DSLR. So the speed at which that can travel becomes the limit. On mirrorless, there's no difference between EVF and Liveview. But on the R5 this limit is 12 FPS.

If your mechical shutter does not deliver sufficient speed, there's also the option of compromising on quality a little and just reading the image electronically, without motion. That's also has a upper limit, which is the 20 FPS on the R5.
 

Ian_of_glos

EOS RP
Jun 12, 2012
259
48
England
Does anyone know if there are disadvantages to using the electronic shutter? Codebunny mentioned there might be some, and I assume there are--otherwise, why bother with the mechanical shutter?
The problem is that it takes a significant amount of time to read the data from the sensor into the buffer and if you are shooting fast action or sport there is time for the animal, sports player or whatever to move before the image has been captured fully. Also, if you are shooting under artificial light you might see banding in the final image because the lights can be brighter or darker whilst the image is being captured. Using a shutter effectively freezes the image allowing time to for it to be read and written to the buffer without these problems.
Personally I will be very surprised if the EOS R5 quoted burst speed of 12 fps will be available in AI servo mode. With the EOS R the maximum quoted burst speed is 8 fps but it is only available in One Shot AF mode. The maximum burst speed in AI Servo is only 5fps. Continuous shooting is usually used for sports and action so you want the camera to refocus between every frame and so continuous shooting is usually combined with AI Servo. Continuous shooting with One Shot AF is of little use.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mikekeck

Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
619
576
Hamburg, Germany
Personally I will be very surprised if the EOS R5 quoted burst speed of 12 fps will be available in AI servo mode. With the EOS R the maximum quoted burst speed is 8 fps but it is only available in One Shot AF mode. The maximum burst speed in AI Servo is only 5fps.
The EOS is a poor comparison for AF speed. It uses the old hardware from the 5D IV.

The newer generation of sensors found in the 1DX III, M6 II and 90D show much greater speeds. The M6 II does AF servo at 14 FPS 32 MP and 30 FPS 18 MP. Granted, that is slightly less throughput than 12 FPS 44 MP but I can't imagine that the M6 II presents the pinnacle of what Canon can pull off. Its just about 1K and even has the older processor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pj1974 and Sharlin

Pape

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 31, 2018
508
301
If the EOS R5 is tracking AF at 12fps, that makes it a very good camera for shooting sports compared to a 5D IV, which is also used for this purpose.
The M6 Mark II tracks at 14fps already, so it is probably not a misleading specification with focus locked in 12fps mode.

It is certainly possible do design a mirrorless camera with big, higher-voltage battery like the 1DX and with a very quick mechanical shutter (without the mirror flapping up and down, it is easier to do), so the electronic shutter is not a necessity, but the sensor-based AF system also needs to keep up.
sony RX100 vii does 90fps with 1 inch sensor , hard to see 90fps never happening with mechanic shutter. Future must be electronic eventually
 

padam

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 26, 2015
700
323
sony RX100 vii does 90fps with 1 inch sensor , hard to see 90fps never happening with mechanic shutter. Future must be electronic eventually
Eventually, that's the main thing. If you see the RX100VII sensor measurements, you will see that it trades speed for image quality, it is a backwards step in that that sense.
20fps is really more than what most people need, so I'd rather still have the option of mechanical shutter and keeping maximum image quality as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Viggo

Codebunny

EOS RP
Sep 5, 2018
249
188
Just to add a little more to this. There is 12fps and 12fps. The camera needs to AF between each shot for a true 12fps and even then you'll also need a fast shutter speed. Realistically you'll be getting 9-10 FPS on the R5 when you put all the other factors into place, assuming 1/2000 shutter.

The 1DX Mark III has 16 FPS and 1000 image buffer. The R5 could easily have its buffer limited to 20 shots, or limited even further if they put on a daft little SD card slot(Though the door on the side is much bigger than the R and suggests CFE).
 

Pape

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 31, 2018
508
301
Eventually, that's the main thing. If you see the RX100VII sensor measurements, you will see that it trades speed for image quality, it is a backwards step in that that sense.
20fps is really more than what most people need, so I'd rather still have the option of mechanical shutter and keeping maximum image quality as well.
Yeah that sensor is tiny .10-20fps sure is enough for action photographing ,but for computing photographing 100fps sounds good. For pixel shift ,focus stack ,hdr stack . Or rahter fast break between shots.
 

Viggo

EOS 5D SR
Dec 13, 2010
4,423
1,065
Just to add a little more to this. There is 12fps and 12fps. The camera needs to AF between each shot for a true 12fps and even then you'll also need a fast shutter speed. Realistically you'll be getting 9-10 FPS on the R5 when you put all the other factors into place, assuming 1/2000 shutter.

The 1DX Mark III has 16 FPS and 1000 image buffer. The R5 could easily have its buffer limited to 20 shots, or limited even further if they put on a daft little SD card slot(Though the door on the side is much bigger than the R and suggests CFE).
The maximum number of fps is “always” Including AF/AE, it’s not just a theoretic number needing locked AF if it’s not specified. I have no doubt the 1dx3 does 16 fps with full AF/AE, the shutter speed fast enough is a given.

that doesn’t mean there isn’t some limitations to the R5 though. And there aresettings that can slow down that max fps like tracking priority, but it’s 100% possible to track and shoot at the max 16 fps, or 20 in LV.