help buying 1st Canon(prosumer)

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Aug 22, 2019
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thanks for any advice in advance, here's a little bit of something I've been going through, btw I'm very new to trying to film on a pro-sudeo level so please excuse any of my cringe worthy comments or questions

I'm more of music guy but am working with someone who's also a music person but also willing to help on the video front. I was in the market for a Canon but after watching a bunch of videos with the iPhone xs max compared to countless prosumer cameras I was sold that it could match up with the real deal. So I upgraded from 7plus to iPhone xs max and filmic pro app, also bought final cut pro. So it came time to start shooting some music video footage at 4k 24fps 100 bits, shot in natural and flat and took time to really get some great footage, and although I thought the videos came out very good, they just weren't as creamy and smooth (when moving slightly and all around actually) as some of the other footage on different days they got with a couple of Canons, those didn't have 4k but were at 1080 hd 24fps (Quick note: now that I think about all those youtube shootout videos with the xs max vs enter really great camera here, they never were actually moving very much, but always still or slow-mo, and I'm not talking about moving fast or sloppy but just slightly, just seems the iPhone with filmic pro doesn't have the juice that solely prosumer cameras have, I could be wrong) So this person decided to only use the canon 1080 hd 24 fps footage and in editing right now its looking phenomenal! I'm not sure which canons they had but I know neither had 4k, I started to think maybe 4k was a problem at least on my end with filmic pro and iPhone but we tested 1080 hd 24 and it looked worse than the 4k, plus I stumbled across this beautiful 4k music video shot on a mark 4 posted by canon Europe so clearly that was idiotic off me to even think that 4k could have been the problem

here's the Canon Europe video shot with 5D mark 4 has me sold


I've come to the conclusion am not going to get footage like this off my iPhone Xs max no matter what 3rd party app and however much editing or however much skill, I don't doubt you can get some really great footage thats doable as I've got some myself but it just doesn't look professional or have weight like this but feels more thin/grainy/sharply digital and so on but still good

I've been holding off on buying the 5d mark 4 as it's going on 3 years and hopefully they'll be coming with a newer version before the olympics, but also I do not like the crop on 4k at all, I believe all of the current canons have that crop at 4K?

I watched the leaked 90D video and wasn't able to tell if there is crop on the 4k, do you guys think that 90D will be able to shoot the same quality as that video I posted? is not having 24fps but only 30 and 25 a bad thing?

so after all that I'm trying to find out in the price range of about 4grand(has two be new, and also tryna get a 50mm and 24-105 lens hopefully) but willing to spend a little more what kind of canon could produce the quality thats in that video I posted other than the mark 4. You think the EOS R? 90D when it comers out? or should I wait a little while longer? the whole goal is to get footage like in that video and I am aware that theres a lot of post production and a lot of skill when actually filming but I want to make sure that the camera I buy Is capable of getting such footage in the first place, sorry if my thread is a mess and really makes no sense to you guys, let men know if I can further explain anything and thanks again for your time and help!
 
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CanonFanBoy

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You can get an R and 24-105mm f/4L for right at $3k. Then you have $1k left for some continuous lighting (I'd go LED). I'm not a video guy, but I doubt there is much difference between 24, 25, and 30 fps. 1 frame/sec or even 5 or 6 frames/sec isn't going to matter in my opinion. Purists will say differently. The crop on Canon's FF 4k will be a vast improvement over the iPhone. That's all I'll say because I know this thread is going to open a big can of worms. BTW, the R will do 24fps 4k.
Capture.JPG
 
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Aug 22, 2019
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You can get an R and 24-105mm f/4L for right at $3k. Then you have $1k left for some continuous lighting (I'd go LED). I'm not a video guy, but I doubt there is much difference between 24, 25, and 30 fps. 1 frame/sec or even 5 or 6 frames/sec isn't going to matter in my opinion. Purists will say differently. That's all I'll say because I know this thread is going to open a big can of worms.
thanks for the insight! I'm thinking if the R can get footage like that video it sounds like a no brainer

let me just make it clear again I know its not as simple as recording and it looks like that, clearly theres a lot of time/skill and post that goes into it.

Sorry I know you said your not a video guy but do you think that the mark 4 and EOS R are equally yoked when shooting 4k?

EDIT: I meant to put " I know its NOT as simple as recording and it looks like that", its fixed now but was the wrong way when canon fan boy quoted me, sorry
 
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CanonFanBoy

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thanks for the insight! I'm thinking if the R can get footage like that video it sounds like a no brainer

let me just make it clear again I know its as simple as recording and it looks like that, clearly theres a lot of time/skill and post that goes into it.

Sorry I know you said your not a video guy but do you think that the mark 4 and EOS R are equally yoked when shooting 4k?
I have no idea because I have never touched a 5D Mark IV and don't do video at all anymore. I used to make YouTube videos when I had a 70D. Other than that, I know nothing about video and forgot even more than that. The R also can be adapted to any EF lens. You will get opinions passed off as "facts" from people who have not shot video with either camera, or have never owned either camera. They watch YouTube reviews and then think doing so makes them an authority on many subjects. You can always rent from lens rentals before buying to compare and see what you like best. I rented the RF 28-70 f/2L for 10 days before I bought. I sold the RF 24-105mm f/4L to help buy mine. The RF 24-105 is a good lens though. I just wanted a faster lens and an excuse to give the wife as to why I needed an 85mm. :) Ended up selling my 5D Mark III and all my EF gear and some guns.
 
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CanonFanBoy

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sounds good man, I do appreciate the heads up about the R, I defiantly will be doing more research about it
BTW: I don't know what kind of monitor you are using, but as far as I know you are not watching 4k if it isn't a 4k monitor. I think it is down sampled to 1080p. Now I am going to STHU like I said I would in my first post. ;)
 

Mt Spokane Photography

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While Canon is good with video, they are not the best which is why you often see Sony Pro cameras but with Canon lenses.

If I were just doing video, I would not rule out any brand, my Canon 5DMK IV is a great all around camera, but might be not match a less expensive camera directly aimed at video. Canon's real strength is in their lenses which is why so many people buy Canon when they could get a specialist camera for less.



Many swear by small Blackmagic pocket cinema 4K, or by a Panasonic Lumix GH5. If you were willing to use a iPhone for a camera, the cameras above would be a huge jump up.
 
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Graphic.Artifacts

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Agree with pretty much everything MSP said. The 5D IV is a great still's camera but it's a challenge to shoot video with on a daily basis. It generates a nice 24/30 FPS stream but has a fair amount of rolling shutter, encodes in MJPEG which sucks to edit, you don't have an EVF and it has no tracking autofocus.

On the plus side, Canon color is excellent, the MJPEG thing can be worked around and the DPAF pulls very smooth and accurate focus if you can live without subject tracking.

If you are willing to grind it out with a 5D IV you can get very nice results. But it is a grind compared to modern mirrorless hybrids.

The 5D IV is one of my favorite cameras but, IMO there are better options for shooting video out there. In addition to the cameras MSP mentioned, Fujifilm makes some very affordable hybrid APSC cameras that perform surprisingly well for video.
 
Aug 22, 2019
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BTW: I don't know what kind of monitor you are using, but as far as I know you are not watching 4k if it isn't a 4k monitor. I think it is down sampled to 1080p. Now I am going to STHU like I said I would in my first post. ;)
haha

I'm on a 2017 iMac pro but have also tested on various monitors. The 4k in that video I posted whether I'm seeing 4k or not looks great, cinematic smooth and creamy for lack of a better word, even the footage the person I was referencing in my first post got from those canons at 1080 hd 24 fps second also looks great cinematic, creamy and smooth, my footage off my filmic pro app and iPhone is good but not creamy smooth, and although cinematic as its 4k 24 fps it's completely useless imho as it doesn't hold up when moving and also looks thin/sharp and digital compared all around to the others, I know eventually I'll have to convert 4k down sometimes, but most times not and I'm definitely looking for a camera to be able to do 4k although I'm sure most times I might not tell the difference, but I completely get what your saying

While Canon is good with video, they are not the best which is why you often see Sony Pro cameras but with Canon lenses.

If I were just doing video, I would not rule out any brand, my Canon 5DMK IV is a great all around camera, but might be not match a less expensive camera directly aimed at video. Canon's real strength is in their lenses which is why so many people buy Canon when they could get a specialist camera for less.



Many swear by small Blackmagic pocket cinema 4K, or by a Panasonic Lumix GH5. If you were willing to use a iPhone for a camera, the cameras above would be a huge jump up.
Hi Mt Spokane Photography

thanks for the perspective! I'm only going to be using this camera for video, with the little research I have done it seems everyone likes canons and say the look more alive and have better color than Nikon and Sony, I always assumed it was because of the guts and not just the lens

I was actually reading through those comments on the video I posted from Canon Europe and someone said "black magic cam wrecks this" or something like that haha and after you mentioned it also I've gotta dig deeper into it, like you said maybe get an adapter for the canon lens which I didn't know was an option or even something people do, just shows how much of a noob I am

Also another guy mentioned "why would you want this camera if three time cheaper bmpcc gives better film look?", I don't even know what a bmpcc is but I will definitely check that out too, thank you for opening up my mind to looking into some of these other cameras. I definitely want to shoot great footage like the video from canon Europe and don't mind spending the money to get something to be able to do so. The only reason I went with the iPhone Xs max and filmic pro app is I really thought I could shoot footage as good as all these cameras mentioned as shown in some of those shootout videos, but yeah grinding on an iPhone is laughs, but I figured as long as the footage looked like it was supposed to I was in! sadly it didn't. will check out the Panasonic Lumix GH5 also

Hi Graphic Artifacts

noted

im really excited to see whats up with the black magic camera, looks reasonable, I'll also look into the fuji film option you mentioned

So thanks for the wealth of knowledge so far! I've learned quite a bit

EDIT: I'm an idiot just realized bmpcc is black magic haha
 
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privatebydesign

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Outside the box to be sure, but take a look at the 1DC, they can be had for crazy good money and the 1080 is exceptional even today with the 4k being good. You also get unlimited recording length and true C-Log.

There are downsides but the actual video output is still supremely good.
 
Aug 22, 2019
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Outside the box to be sure, but take a look at the 1DC, they can be had for crazy good money and the 1080 is exceptional even today with the 4k being good. You also get unlimited recording length and true C-Log.

There are downsides but the actual video output is still supremely good.
huh, interesting, noted, I'll check more on that, might be a good fit,

So as I started looking at some of these black magic pocket cinema 4k videos I was completely unimpressed, compared to that canon Europe one I posted, i started thinking how much of the quality of that video is due to post production? probably a lot I know but these videos I was looking at from the bmpc4k were no good and yes they were all newer ones not ones from like 4 years ago

then I found this one that looked really good and it was shot with a canon lens I believe it says in the description, here it is


its definitely slowed down in some spots, there seems to be a lot of footage that looks great when slowed down but doesn't hold up in real time.
that doesn't not look like 60fps, do they shoot in 60 fps and then edit in 24 fps? or am I missing something, it seems like theres very little movement also and I read something g about blurry edges from the adapter in the comments that get fixed with crop in post also. I think the canon video looks better but this is defiantly one of the better black magic videos I've seen, the others not so good, prob all do to post production

Edit: looking further into the black magic I'm finding some great footage
 
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unfocused

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There are a few things you need to understand. That Canon video may have used a 5DIV, but everything else was done using high end professional gear -- lighting, probably a dolly, a rig mounted to the car, certainly a professional steady cam rig, probably more than one 5DIV and lots of post production editing and adding effects.

I have shot very little video, but what I did learn shooting video is that the non-camera equipment is almost more important than the camera. Before rushing out and buying anything new, take some time to look at instructional videos and read up on video production. In particular, look at getting a good, smooth slider or one of the new gimbals (or maybe both). DJI makes some very interesting and low cost gimbals. Either or both will help tremendously in making your videos look professional.

Since you are a music person, you know how important sound is. Spend less on the camera and more on the sound recording equipment. Also, make sure whatever camera you buy has a headphone jack so you can monitor any sound you are recording.

If it were me and I was on a budget, I would buy a Canon 80D, an 18-135 IS USM and the PZ-E1 Power Zoom Adapter. You should easily be able to get the 80D and the 18-135 (be sure you get the new model with nano USM) used, plus the PZ-E1 for $1,500 or less total.

Spend the rest of your budget on a DJI gimbal and a slider, a good microphone if you are recording any sound live and one good LED light (most of the video people I have worked with who are on a budget have a single good LED light that they balance with the ambient light and use as a fill). You will be amazed at the creative shots you can accomplish with a slider combined with the power zoom.

Shoot in 1080p and don't worry about 4K.

Creative Live has some great videos for people trying to learn and produce on a budget. Spend some quality time learning how others do it, before buying anything.
 

privatebydesign

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Take a look at some 1DC footage, there is a lot out there, S35 mode is legendary. Most of the common mentioned negatives, lack of tilting screen, waveforms, zebras and peaking etc are overcome with a small monitor.

Just found this.
 
Aug 22, 2019
8
3
There are a few things you need to understand. That Canon video may have used a 5DIV, but everything else was done using high end professional gear -- lighting, probably a dolly, a rig mounted to the car, certainly a professional steady cam rig, probably more than one 5DIV and lots of post production editing and adding effects.

I have shot very little video, but what I did learn shooting video is that the non-camera equipment is almost more important than the camera. Before rushing out and buying anything new, take some time to look at instructional videos and read up on video production. In particular, look at getting a good, smooth slider or one of the new gimbals (or maybe both). DJI makes some very interesting and low cost gimbals. Either or both will help tremendously in making your videos look professional.

Since you are a music person, you know how important sound is. Spend less on the camera and more on the sound recording equipment. Also, make sure whatever camera you buy has a headphone jack so you can monitor any sound you are recording.

If it were me and I was on a budget, I would buy a Canon 80D, an 18-135 IS USM and the PZ-E1 Power Zoom Adapter. You should easily be able to get the 80D and the 18-135 (be sure you get the new model with nano USM) used, plus the PZ-E1 for $1,500 or less total.

Spend the rest of your budget on a DJI gimbal and a slider, a good microphone if you are recording any sound live and one good LED light (most of the video people I have worked with who are on a budget have a single good LED light that they balance with the ambient light and use as a fill). You will be amazed at the creative shots you can accomplish with a slider combined with the power zoom.

Shoot in 1080p and don't worry about 4K.

Creative Live has some great videos for people trying to learn and produce on a budget. Spend some quality time learning how others do it, before buying anything.
thank you for the wealth of knowledge!

the 4 grand budget mostly is for camera and lens, I will defiantly be buying add ons that are not included in the 4 grand budget. The sound being recorded is not as important as none of it will be used in the music videos, some sound is good enough for reference, although wouldn't mind upgrading later. I'm a producer/independent artist/engineer and work with similar artists and the music/sound side of things is all handled in the studio, The only thing at the moment I'm planning on using this camera for is music videos, they don't have to be big budget shoots, something where the footage really holds up to something like that canon Europe video, and I know theres a lot of skill and prep work that goes into getting such footage plus all types of add-ons, lights etc. I just need to make sure that the camera I get is up to par. Many people who record or produce would say get a decent confessor mic and and use the preamp on your audio interface and focus more on acoustic treatment and vocal performance, which in all honesty in a option, but a decent confessor mic and audio interface preamp being apollo or not is not going to sound as good as my $6000 vocal chain alongside acoustic treatment and a good performance. I'm really trying to be able to shoot footage that looks top notch from the gate, but know also that it takes everything else as well

So the canon 80D, an 18-135 IS USM and the PZ-E1 Power Zoom Adapter should get me some really good footage, I'll check it out as I don't want to spend money if I don't have to. I'm really set on being able to shoot in 4k though ill be honest, but I'm gonna check into that


Take a look at some 1DC footage, there is a lot out there, S35 mode is legendary. Most of the common mentioned negatives, lack of tilting screen, waveforms, zebras and peaking etc are overcome with a small monitor.
gonna look at some 1dc footage right now

Edit: just wanted to mention that the person I'm working with is doing tons of video editing and really can shoot some great footage, I'll mostly be working alongside them which will help the learning curve a little although will definelty be watching tutorials as I go
 
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Aug 22, 2019
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thanks privatebydesign, btw is that a play on Violent by design?, great album by Jedi mind tricks

just watched some 1dc footage and it looks good and has that cinema feel, not ready for my first prosumer camera to be used and no warranty and what not, plus I feel some of the other footage from the newer camera has a slight edge at least from what I saw, and what im tryin g to do could be wrong or up to taste I suppose.

I did really like some videos I just watched from the Fujifilm xtr
 

navastronia

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Aug 31, 2018
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so after all that I'm trying to find out in the price range of about 4grand(has two be new, and also tryna get a 50mm and 24-105 lens hopefully) but willing to spend a little more what kind of canon could produce the quality thats in that video I posted other than the mark 4. You think the EOS R? 90D when it comers out? or should I wait a little while longer? the whole goal is to get footage like in that video and I am aware that theres a lot of post production and a lot of skill when actually filming but I want to make sure that the camera I buy Is capable of getting such footage in the first place, sorry if my thread is a mess and really makes no sense to you guys, let men know if I can further explain anything and thanks again for your time and help!
As someone who has worked in video, I would strongly urge you to put off purchasing gear until you've increased your skills and knowledge, but yes, you're totally right about iPhone footage looking oddly choppy and you have a good eye for noticing.

The more you learn and work, the more you will develop preferences like the look of 30p vs 24p, or 4K vs really great 1080, etc. You will also learn the look of different lenses you like, and lenses are often a huge and important investment! Other stuff, like whether or not you will use autofocus, is also important to experiment with. If you're shooting music videos, you are probably going to be focusing manually, and old manual focus lenses can be an amazing investment (and are crazy cheap for what you're getting) if you know your craft and mount them to a good body.

A couple more things:

1) If 4K footage is really important to you, the Fuji XT-3 produces stunning 4K (first video). So does the Blackmagic Pocket 4K (second video).



2) One of the worst feelings in the world is to buy gear and then learn a couple months down the road that you don't like what you got because you didn't understand your needs well enough. It's probably happened to most of the people on this forum at least once. The way to get around this and help it not happen to you is to work with your friends' equipment, rent gear to try it yourself, and learn learn learn - check out behind-the-scenes videos made about your favorite content - pay attention to what the cinematographers are shooting on and how they turn that moment on set into the finished product.

3) Good luck to you and feel free to DM me if I can help in any way :)
 
Aug 22, 2019
8
3
As someone who has worked in video, I would strongly urge you to put off purchasing gear until you've increased your skills and knowledge, but yes, you're totally right about iPhone footage looking oddly choppy and you have a good eye for noticing.

The more you learn and work, the more you will develop preferences like the look of 30p vs 24p, or 4K vs really great 1080, etc. You will also learn the look of different lenses you like, and lenses are often a huge and important investment! Other stuff, like whether or not you will use autofocus, is also important to experiment with. If you're shooting music videos, you are probably going to be focusing manually, and old manual focus lenses can be an amazing investment (and are crazy cheap for what you're getting) if you know your craft and mount them to a good body.

A couple more things:

1) If 4K footage is really important to you, the Fuji XT-3 produces stunning 4K (first video). So does the Blackmagic Pocket 4K (second video).



2) One of the worst feelings in the world is to buy gear and then learn a couple months down the road that you don't like what you got because you didn't understand your needs well enough. It's probably happened to most of the people on this forum at least once. The way to get around this and help it not happen to you is to work with your friends' equipment, rent gear to try it yourself, and learn learn learn - check out behind-the-scenes videos made about your favorite content - pay attention to what the cinematographers are shooting on and how they turn that moment on set into the finished product.

3) Good luck to you and feel free to DM me if I can help in any way :)
sup Navastronia! I might be taking you up on that

I just came across the new 6k black magic on their website! and then watched this video


and Damm! at around 4:17 seconds I am just stunned at how great that 4k 24 fps looks. Although the bmpcc4k shoots 4k 24fps, its prob not as nice as the 6k bmpcc 4k 24fps right? some upgrades to the guts or something, or would it look the same on the bmpcc4k? stupid question I know I'm almost certain it looks better on the new 6k bmpcc

being able to mount lens's with no adapter is a huge plus, I think this might be the one, with a canon 24m- 70 and 50 mm lens for starters

so I watched the second video you posted earlier before you posted it and sorry but it does not look good to me, it was one of the videos that actually had me second guessing getting a bmpcc4k.

But the first video you posted, the fujifilm xt3 one looks amazing! the more and more I see from Fujifilm xt3 I'm really liking and is standing out, but the new bmpcc6k also looks lovely, I would defiantly need a battery pack and total rig

I've learned so much in less than 24 hours about where I want to be with my 1st prosumer camera, you guys are the best!
 
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mkabi

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Yeah, if I were to recommend a camera today for video (for a first kit) it would be the Fuji XT-3. Just buy the body with standard zoom 18-55 f/2.8-4. It’s more affordable and more capable in terms of video than any Canon DSLR/MILC in 2019.

Going forward, don’t buy into a specific brand. They will all let you down, in one way or another. In terms of lenses, buy the trinity of primes (25 or 35, 50, 85 and/or 135) and buy them in PL mount (get PL adapter to fit whatever new camera you get and call it a day); learn to manual focus, it’s actually a lot of fun.
 
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