Here’s a vague Canon roadmap for 2019 [CR1]

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,564
124
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
Recently I got myself a 5D classic to use with Zeiss primes lenses. I have used it quite a lot, and still I haven’t had issues with either noise or lack of dynamic range. Ok, I have avoided putting it in very difficult lighting conditions, BUT, I haven’t had any issue taking the pictures I wanted to make, or from taking a photo worth taking. For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.
Just to be clear (as things sometimes get skewed on here) I’m not suggesting older models were bad cameras, just that the newer processes Canon implimented 2 years ago or so have made improvements. I’ve never had a shot on any camera (and Ive had a LOT and they were all canon) be noisy to the point of distraction or unusable unless either I totally F’ed the shot or the light was so so so poor that no FF camera could have salvaged it.

The highest number of shots I hit each year when ranked by ISO are easily 3200-6400 because of shooting live indoor dance performances with difficult lighting, no ability to strobe (cuz it’s live), and having to set minimum shutter speeds at 400-500 or so.

Both the 1DX and 1DX2 have provided very pleasing results in that dept
 
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Larsskv

Enthusiast with Canon related GAS
Jun 12, 2015
739
148
Just to be clear (as things sometimes get skewed on here) I’m not suggesting older models were bad cameras, just that the newer processes Canon implimented 2 years ago or so have made improvements. I’ve never had a shot on any camera (and Ive had a LOT and they were all canon) be noisy to the point of distraction or unusable unless either I totally F’ed the shot or the light was so so so poor that no FF camera could have salvaged it.

The highest number of shots I hit each year when ranked by ISO are easily 3200-6400 because of shooting live indoor dance performances with difficult lighting, no ability to strobe (cuz it’s live), and having to set minimum shutter speeds at 400-500 or so.

Both the 1DX and 1DX2 have provided very pleasing results in that dept
I wasn’t objecting to anything you said, but I can understand it if you thought so. Sorry for not being clear about it. My statement was made when I saw DR being discussed, and since I recently has reflected on the DR “issue” from a 5D classic standpoint, also owning the 5DIV and EOS R, I made a comment. It wasn’t really connected to your statement at all.

My point is that even the 5D classic has enough DR to handle allmost every situation worth taking a picture of. Out of curiosity I looked up a D850 group and an A7RIII group on Flickr, looking for pictures that required lots of DR, and that I don’t think a Canon 5DIV would handle. After looking for quite some time, I couldn’t really find any images that I believe would be hard to take on a 5DIV, or a 6D for that matter. Those who seemed to require the most DR to make, was pushed so much I suspect the photographer to be color blind.
 
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PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,564
124
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
I wasn’t objecting to anything you said, but I can understand it if you thought so. Sorry for not being clear about it. My statement was made when I saw DR being discussed, and since I recently has reflected on the DR “issue” from a 5D classic standpoint, also owning the 5DIV and EOS R, I made a comment. It wasn’t really connected to your statement at all.

My point is that even the 5D classic has enough DR to handle allmost every situation worth taking a picture of. Out of curiosity I looked up a D850 group and an A7RIII group on Flickr, looking for pictures that required lots of DR, and that I don’t think a Canon 5DIV would handle. After looking for quite some time, I couldn’t really find any images that I believe would be hard to take on a 5DIV, or a 6D for that matter. Those who seemed to require the most DR to make, was pushed so much I suspect the photographer to be color blind.
My favorite was the DRones talking about taking pictures of coke bottles underexposed by 5 stops and the pushing it to show how great Sony was lol
 
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3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,854
266
In practice you almost never see the effect with a mechanical shutter.
While anecdotes are not data, I found that in practice you don’t see the effect much with the a9’s electronic shutter either. Granted I only used one for a week, but I shot a lot of pans.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,854
266
For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.
I don’t agree. And I bet you don’t really, either. Would you happily take a camera which records 5ev at ISO100? I wouldn’t either.

What has happened, I think, is that people have focused undue attention on differences in DR without much practical significance.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
282
125
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
I don’t agree. And I bet you don’t really, either. Would you happily take a camera which records 5ev at ISO100? I wouldn’t either.

What has happened, I think, is that people have focused undue attention on differences in DR without much practical significance.
Exactly. Abstract numbers on DR charts from review sites don't really matter until you actually work with cameras with different DR. I had an entertaining argument on this forum recently on this matter and I think these discussions happen here quite often.

I think the statement that 1-2 stop difference in DR 'doesn't matter in most cases' is very misleading, there's so many genres where such a difference doesn't matter at all and there are genres where it matters a lot and quite often. There may be no practical difference at all for some people and a big difference for others.

I owned different Canon cameras, worked temporarily with others and studied sample raw files, and so far 5DIV (my primary camera) is the most satisfying and the rest are hard to deal with in landscape photography. 200D (same DR as 80D) seems to be good enough, but I didn't use it much. Again that's for my workflow and for my typical shooting conditions.
If Canon releases next 5DSr replacement with no AA filter and DR at least as good as 5DIV, most likely I'll upgrade from my 5DIV. If its DR is worse, I'll think twice.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,152
431
While anecdotes are not data, I found that in practice you don’t see the effect much with the a9’s electronic shutter either. Granted I only used one for a week, but I shot a lot of pans.
In fairness the A9's electronic shutter may be perfectly acceptable here. I don't have the hands on time with an A9 to judge this.

If Sony got the readout times low enough then I would have to retract my "meh" comment.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
282
125
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Of course not. A Canon 5D IV can push 5 stops :rolleyes: You underexpose by SIX stops to prove your superiority.
You're making fun of something nobody does. You don't need a high DR in your camera just so that you can push underexposed images by 5 stops. You need a higher DR to have more information in shadows and highlights in properly exposed shots. If you don't expose it right and adjust the exposure in postprocessing, you lose information. It normally matters in landscapes. With a higher DR you also have some room for underexposing in complex light conditions, say in concerts where the light is rapidly changing.

In the tests they push exposure just in order to reveal the information in the shadows to the naked eye and compare it between the sensors. They don't do it to simulate what's normally done in postprocessing.
 

Larsskv

Enthusiast with Canon related GAS
Jun 12, 2015
739
148
Exactly. Abstract numbers on DR charts from review sites don't really matter until you actually work with cameras with different DR. I had an entertaining argument on this forum recently on this matter and I think these discussions happen here quite often.

I think the statement that 1-2 stop difference in DR 'doesn't matter in most cases' is very misleading, there's so many genres where such a difference doesn't matter at all and there are genres where it matters a lot and quite often. There may be no practical difference at all for some people and a big difference for others.

I owned different Canon cameras, worked temporarily with others and studied sample raw files, and so far 5DIV (my primary camera) is the most satisfying and the rest are hard to deal with in landscape photography. 200D (same DR as 80D) seems to be good enough, but I didn't use it much. Again that's for my workflow and for my typical shooting conditions.
If Canon releases next 5DSr replacement with no AA filter and DR at least as good as 5DIV, most likely I'll upgrade from my 5DIV. If its DR is worse, I'll think twice.
Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure), AND that isn’t processed to death by someone color blind, looking like a mess... such as this:

https://flic.kr/p/2evXABV
Those Sony sensor users still beating the DR drum after the 5DIV, and arguably 6D, has a serious lack of arguments for choosing/defending their camera system.

Sure, some, maybe 1 in a 100, will actually need the DR advantage a D850 gives them. I belong to the people who get by with the DR from a 5D classic 95% of the time.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
282
125
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure),
For proper comparison, I'd need to shoot the very same scene at the same moment from the same spot on both 5DIV and Sony, then analyse the RAW files. Images on Flickr may be HDR or exposure blended, they're relatively low resolution and not RAW.
I know I often push the limits of my 5DIV and I can compare it to the previous Canon cameras I used. It's easy to see by histogram. Normally I shoot landscapes by histogram and I often struggle even with 5DIV.

AND that isn’t processed to death by someone color blind, looking like a mess... such as this:
https://flic.kr/p/2evXABV
It's an interesting location but a bad photo, there are dust spots and huge lens flare that's quite disturbing, also most likely it's an HDR shot, not a single exposure. Even Nikon D850 wouldn't cope with that dynamic range in one shot. So it's a bad example, not sure what we can prove with it. If you check the latest images in the same profile, you'll find them much better.

Those Sony sensor users still beating the DR drum after the 5DIV, and arguably 6D, has a serious lack of arguments for choosing/defending their camera system.
Again I've been a Canon shooter for many years and I can compare my first DSLR 550D with 5DIV, and also some Canon cameras in between. I'm not totally happy with 5DIV sensor but all in all it works fine for me. It is my personal preference to have at least the same sensor performance in my next camera, based on my experience with Canon - not Sony and Nikon, but with Canon. So I don't really care much how Sony users defend their system, I don't attack them so there's nothing to defend. Neither do I attack Canon users with non-5DIV sensors.

Sure, some, maybe 1 in a 100, will actually need the DR advantage a D850 gives them. I belong to the people who get by with the DR from a 5D classic 95% of the time.
1 in 100 is 1%, but then you're saying about 95% ;) If 5D classic gives you what you what, there's no point in upgrading perhaps.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,152
431
You're making fun of something nobody does.
The "seriousness" of the "DR issue" has been mocked many a time on this forum and on others.

You don't need a high DR in your camera just so that you can push underexposed images by 5 stops. You need a higher DR to have more information in shadows and highlights in properly exposed shots.
For the record, I was pushing shadows and blending exposures for HDR scenes when the Canon EOS 10D was a current camera. My portfolio includes a large number of HDR images including:
* Bright sky/dark foreground landscapes and seascapes.
* Slot canyon landscapes.
* Real estate interiors. (Less of these versus landscapes but I've done them professionally.)
* Surfing. I bring up surf shots not because they typically blow out a Canon sensor. But you are often near the edge and if you're going to hold white foam and control specular highlights then the main subject ends up in the bottom zones. You have to bring them back up without destroying their faces or black wetsuits with noise.

I just recently made a long post here where I went into what 1-3ev of DR means between shipping sensors, with practical examples. The tl;dr:
* The majority of scenes fit on either sensor type (off versus on chip ADCs).
* The majority of scenes that do not fit on one will not fit on the other.
* In between those two groups there are scenes you can do in one exposure on the newer type of sensor, but really need two on the older type.

That 3rd category doesn't happen nearly as often as portrayed.

With a higher DR you also have some room for underexposing in complex light conditions, say in concerts where the light is rapidly changing.
What concerts are you shooting at ISO 100? On-chip ADCs help at the lowest ISOs. At high ISOs there's very little difference between on/off chip ADC sensors.

In the tests they push exposure just in order to reveal the information in the shadows to the naked eye and compare it between the sensors. They don't do it to simulate what's normally done in postprocessing.
The problem with this is that no one stops to ask how applicable such tests are to real world photography. They just get regurgitated on forums as "Canon sensor bad."
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,152
431
Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure)...
Anyone who claims that they could is merely revealing that they don't understand this issue. The 5D4 and D8x0 bodies are separated by about 1ev on the shadow side. This doesn't mean that the 5D IV's shadows hit a brick wall. It means they cross an arbitrarily-chosen-for-the-test noise threshold.

If you can do it on the D850, you can do it on a 5D IV with a bit of NR in the shadows. No one, including the staff at DPReview and the staff at DxO, would be able to discern large prints from these cameras based on shadow detail if those prints were post processed at all.

My camera of choice, the 5Ds, is about 2.3ev shy of a D8x0. You can't PP that away. There are scenes that can be processed in one frame on a D8x0 that require two on the 5Ds to get the same shadow detail. But that is a much more narrow band than people who debate DR online seem to realize or accept.
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,152
431
Please go to flickr and find a picture taken with a Sony sensor camera, that you wouldn’t be able to get with a 5DIV (single exposure), AND that isn’t processed to death by someone color blind, looking like a mess... such as this:

https://flic.kr/p/2evXABV
I just downloaded the highest resolution file and noticed the big dust (oil?) spots. God that would trigger a good friend of mine with pro Nikon and Fuji kits. He's had oil spot issues on two Nikon bodies. I used to mess with him on shoots by going "Wait a minute! Before we start I have to do something." Then I would just show him the sensor cleaning screen.

I'm surprised my Canon didn't end up thrown in the ocean :LOL:

Side note: he shoots the Fuji more and more even though the D800E has more dynamic range. I'm not even sure if he's noticed or cared about any DR differences. OTOH he has talked extensively about the color science differences.
 
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Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
282
125
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
The "seriousness" of the "DR issue" has been mocked many a time on this forum and on others.
There's no DR issue for me. That is, I'm not trying to convince anyone that their camera is crap because of DR or they need to switch to Sony. I've only been telling about my personal preferences and experience. In terms of the Canon roadmap, I'd be happy to see a mirrorless 5Dsr with better DR. It's an important factor for me and I wouldn't like to downgrade in terms of DR.

I just recently made a long post here where I went into what 1-3ev of DR means between shipping sensors, with practical examples. The tl;dr:
* The majority of scenes fit on either sensor type (off versus on chip ADCs).
* The majority of scenes that do not fit on one will not fit on the other.
* In between those two groups there are scenes you can do in one exposure on the newer type of sensor, but really need two on the older type.

That 3rd category doesn't happen nearly as often as portrayed.
That's probably all true for you, but in my experience, I often see histogram stretched from left to right and with bumps on the very left and the very right sides. I think the 3rd category happens quite often for me. Also higher DR means cleaner shadows even when both cameras compared are within the range. That leaves more room for image manipulation. In the end most or all current Canon FF cameras are 14 bit which sets theoretical limit of 14 stops, but the effective DR is lower because of noise. And when we compare two cameras (e.g. EOS R and RP) on the same scene, I guess we may see roughly the same histogram on both cameras, but the room for manipulation will be much less on RP because of the bigger noise.

What concerts are you shooting at ISO 100? On-chip ADCs help at the lowest ISOs. At high ISOs there's very little difference between on/off chip ADC sensors.
Concerts are generally from ISO 400, and I rarely go above 3200. It hugely depends on the available light. 6DII catches up with 5DIV at about ISO 1600-3200 in terms of DR.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,152
431
That's probably all true for you, but in my experience, I often see histogram stretched from left to right and with bumps on the very left and the very right sides. I think the 3rd category happens quite often for me.
You can have an image with a histogram that looks like that and not need a shadow push at all. Depends on the image.

How often do you have an image that OOC has large areas of Zone 0-1 that have to be opened up into Zones 2-5? How often are you using the exp comp and shadow sliders to push shadows hard to achieve that? How often do you try to use those sliders then give up because of noise? And out of those times, how often would you have not given up on a Sony sensor?

If you're shooting a 5D4 the answer to the last question should be "never" because the 5D4 sensor has on chip ADCs. A 5ev push on the 5D4 looks very much like a 6ev push on a D8x0 body. With a bit of NR work it looks very close +6 to +6. So close that you're not going to tell them apart except while pixel peeping.

So...are you pushing shadows +6ev and then giving up and throwing the RAW away? If so then you're looking at multi exposure HDR techniques or GND filters on any camera. There's no single exposure solution to your situation. Not unless you want to hand process some B&W film for maximum DR.
 

bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
329
169
Recently I got myself a 5D classic to use with Zeiss primes lenses. I have used it quite a lot, and still I haven’t had issues with either noise or lack of dynamic range. Ok, I have avoided putting it in very difficult lighting conditions, BUT, I haven’t had any issue taking the pictures I wanted to make, or from taking a photo worth taking. For most use, I think DR is the most overrated quality in a digital camera. The camera world has been stupified and lost perspective due to the hype around DR.
It depends on your needs. Sony eyeAF wouldn't be a priority for landscape shooter and dynamic range isn't for portrait photographer.

I shoot landscape and has to rely on luminosity mask to get greater dynamic range. I shoot environmental portraits so I can definitely use more clean dynamic range when I can't bracket my shots.

If none of the camera has features you need, save the money and just stick to 5D classic.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,854
266
In fairness the A9's electronic shutter may be perfectly acceptable here. I don't have the hands on time with an A9 to judge this.

If Sony got the readout times low enough then I would have to retract my "meh" comment.
It reads very fast; about 1/150sec too to bottom.
It’s slower than an a9’s mechanical shutter moves (roughly 1/300sec top to bottom per imaging-resource), but 2-3 times faster than most electronic shutters (also per imaging-resource).