Here are some images and pricing for the Canon EOS 90D

Aug 22, 2019
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5
Canon Australia just announced both cameras on a live FB video.... no details given about when they will actually be available to purchase though
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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A simplified AF system in comparison to the 7D II and 5DSR I use, but for bird photography I find single point and Zone AF more than adequate for birds in flight photography. The real winner I’m hoping is the 1.6 crop sensor with 32.5 MP which has got to be the best spec ever for bird photography. Here’s hoping!
I've found iTR helpful for tracking airplanes in flight. It also seems to be missing from the 90D. I would think iTR would help in keeping a bird's head in focus, rather than shifting to a near wingtip as 9-point zone AF is prone to do.

Keep in mind that the 9-point zone AF in the 80D acts nothing like Single point AF with 4 or 8 point expansion does in the 7, 5, and 1 series.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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Fewer AF cross-points than the 7Dii. Single-processor. No IBIS (not that this was expected). Higher MP count so the noise is almost certainly going to be worse than the 7Dii. Unless you're using an 80D or something I'm not sure why you would view this as an upgrade. It's objectively worse than the 7Dii in several areas, particularly those that are important to wildlife photographers. Not sure what I'm supposed to do at this point, been waiting for a 7Dii upgrade for a while now. I really don't want to dump all my glass and jump to Nikon. Sony maybe?
Nikon has officially announced there will be no D500 replacement. Ever.

Canon has all but officially announced the 7D Mark III will never be released.

Sony does not really have a dog in this fight since most wildlife photographers use their viewfinders for long periods of time that kill the batteries of mirrorless bodies.

About the only Canon option for a true upgrade to the 7D Mark II is the 1D X Mark II, and that is only if you can accept the lower pixel density. Otherwise it's a Nikon D500 before they're discontinued and gone. Just don't let the price of the AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8E FL VR and any primes longer than 200mm give you heartburn. In the case of the 70-200, Nikon's most recent offering is better than Canon's (both are excellent, but Nikon's is a bit better). Canon seems to have the advantage on everything above 200mm that is directly comparable (300/2.8 vs. 300/2.8, 400/2.8 vs. 400/2.8, etc).

After the 1D X Mark III is released early next year, prices for the 1D X Mark II should drop, both existing new stock at dealers and on the used market. By now, though, most used 1D X Mark II bodies have been shooting for almost four years and the vast majority of them likely have high shutter counts.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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The AF module might indeed be an indicator or relative AF performance, but "single or dual" processors is not. In regard to that: it's a bummer that the 90D doesn't have the single+AF assist points mode that is so popular (I use it a lot myself). But then again, it has an updated iTR sensor and algorithms which may mean it's better at subject tracking.
Where have any of the "leaked" document said the 90D will have iTR? The 80D has an RGB+IR light meter and does not have iTR. The 90D looks to have a very similar AF system to the 80D.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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This is a sensible approach. The 7DMkll isn't so old that y'all cannot wait a bit for the next body to fill it's shoes. There has always been it's more expensive big sibling as well. Furthermore, the 7DMk2 is a great camera in the right hands. If you take the time to customize AF settings and use it under the right range of conditions (something most cameras have-limitations and strengths) it will produce amazing images. Like the 6D2, it has been bashed by many non owners and those who don't care to invest the time to work with it. Like all things, the complainers are always louder and more forthcoming than the happy owners, even when they are the minority.
Most of us who have had their 7D Mark II bodies since shortly after it was introduced almost five years ago are probably starting to get into shutter counts that are well over the rated 200,000 shutter rating. As a body designed primarily for sports, they tend to get worked pretty hard. That's what is causing a lot of the recent impatience. We're happy with our 7D Mark IIs, but we don't want to have to buy another new one five years after it was first rolled out.

While it is true that many are getting well past 500,000 clicks before shutter failure, the chances of shutter issues start increasing appreciably at about 150,000-250,000. Less than two-thirds of 7D Mark IIs make it past 250,000, which means once you are past 200,000 or so, there's a one-in-three chance you'll have shutter issues by 250,000. Those odds are too high to depend on a body for paid work without owning a backup copy.
 

Sharlin

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 26, 2015
1,061
559
Turku, Finland
Where have any of the "leaked" document said the 90D will have iTR? The 80D has an RGB+IR light meter and does not have iTR. The 90D looks to have a very similar AF system to the 80D.
I believe iTR was mentioned in the promo video. But here it is straight from the horse's mouth. Now, they emphasize face detection here but that's likely just marketing. The 80D doesn't have full iTR probably mostly because the resolution is so low (but does have a form of color tracking, at least in theory). But resolution is no longer a hindrance, and indeed a 220,000 pixel metering sensor wouldn't really make much sense if it weren't used for AF tracking as well.

1566978576527.png
 

Sharlin

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 26, 2015
1,061
559
Turku, Finland
I'm not too familiar with the pro cameras, what's the difference here?
The expansion modes always prioritizes focusing with the center point, only using the neighboring points to make tracking more robust. Whereas the nine-point mode will in general just pick the point(s) that's closest to the camera and focus on that.
 
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Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,227
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I believe iTR was mentioned in the promo video. But here it is straight from the horse's mouth. Now, they emphasize face detection here but that's likely just marketing. The 80D doesn't have full iTR probably mostly because the resolution is so low (but does have a form of color tracking, at least in theory). But resolution is no longer a hindrance, and indeed a 220,000 pixel metering sensor wouldn't really make much sense if it weren't used for AF tracking as well.

View attachment 186213
That is interesting.
The 7D2 had a 150k pixel metering sensor which in theory means the 90D iTR should be superior.
Now, if their subject recognition and processing has improved for a half-decent eye AF this may reduce the need for the 1+4 or 1+8 focussing modes.

But I realise I am probably being optimistic...
 

StoicalEtcher

EOS 80D
Jan 3, 2018
176
82
Yorkshire
What they've meant is, if you want a new APS-C DSLR, this is it, and they may not continue the 7D line as-is, possibly moving it over to their mirrorless line.
I guess Canon have estimated that developing a (yet another) new sensor, new AF, etc. and pricing it at like 2500$ to have the profit margin they need is simply not worth it at this time, and with the new system they may offer stabilisation, even higher framerates without a mirror etc. to justify this kind of pricing and also keep up with the competition.

So the 90D is an upgrade to their whole APS-C line in a lot of regards (especially for video, possibly image quality), since the technology in it is 5 years younger than a 7D Mark II, that's a pretty long time and it will be a popular model that they can still sell well. They have equipped it with the AF joystick as well now, so they intended to move it up a notch in terms of controls.
Yes: good point. And that's probably where I come in: this may become the king of Canon's APS-C line, but I've seen nothing to say it is supposed to be a 7Dii replacement, so it seems harsh to criticise it as "not a good replacement" for that camera.

Better to see it as an 80D update/refresh, and judge it on that basis (I'm not a user of either, so can't comment with direct knowledge, but to me it seems like a good movement forward over the 80D).

Given what we all believe to be the state of a declining market, while I understand lines may converge, I'm less sure that Canon would give up the 7D market-space (I don't see the 1D line as a realistic alternate for many owners, given the price differential) when it seems to have such a strong following, and I agree with the logic of reef58 's comment about markets and expensive lenses.

Cheers,

Stoical
 
Aug 25, 2019
7
6
I've found iTR helpful for tracking airplanes in flight. It also seems to be missing from the 90D. I would think iTR would help in keeping a bird's head in focus, rather than shifting to a near wingtip as 9-point zone AF is prone to do.

Keep in mind that the 9-point zone AF in the 80D acts nothing like Single point AF with 4 or 8 point expansion does in the 7, 5, and 1 series.
All goods points! But I the AF will be fine once practised with it...won’t know until we have a go with it of course. At least it will be superb for perched birds!!! I’ve always thought that hand-eye coordination is the most important determinant in BIF photography. practice makes perfect!
 

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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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This camera seems capable at the very least.

Those who were asking for a "12 fps or nothing" burst, guess what, if you're not good enough to get nice pictures with a 10fps burst, then you should invest in yourself just a little bit, you know, to catch up the late. A 12 fps burst instead of 10 won't compensate a lack of skill. "It's 2019 for god's sake !!" as you are used to say, so it's never too late to invest in self development :p

Can the scepticals provide an exemple of a better (or even equal) camera for sport photography, within the same budget (or below), and brand new of course ? I'm not part of the Canon ecosystem yet, so I'm definitely interested in your answers. And please, don't say Sony, their lenses are definitely not good (at least for the aps-c range) and quite expensive as well especially compared to what Canon has to offer...

AF lock speed, tracking an other things haven't been tested yet so it's of course too early to give this new body awards, I'm just assuming Canon wouldn't drop a 10fps camera without a really good autofocus (otherwise what would be the point ? to have 2 sharp shots out of 10 ?) but I might be wrong, just assumptions.
Its closer competitor might be the 7D2 itself and its very few last models still on sale.
Cough - cough - (THE ORIGINAL 7D) - cough - cough...

Okay. It was actually more like 3-4 out of 10 frames in a burst were dead on focused, 3-4 more were close enough to be usable at web sized or newsprint resolutions, while the rest were totally out of focus.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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I don't know the business, but I doubt Canon is throwing in the towel on the 7d2 demographic. The biggest reason is lens sales. Who buys 7d's? Wildlife people. Who buys 10k dollar white lenses wildlife people. Who doesn't jump ship each time a new camera is introduced by a rival brand, people with 10k dollar lenses.

Maybe the 90d is meant to be that camera, but I suspect they have something in the works. It may be a 1d type or a specialized 5d type. I m looking for a body to be used with my 500 f4. I thought a 7d3 was coming. I guess we shall see.
Yes: good point. And that's probably where I come in: this may become the king of Canon's APS-C line, but I've seen nothing to say it is supposed to be a 7Dii replacement, so it seems harsh to criticise it as "not a good replacement" for that camera.

Better to see it as an 80D update/refresh, and judge it on that basis (I'm not a user of either, so can't comment with direct knowledge, but to me it seems like a good movement forward over the 80D).

Given what we all believe to be the state of a declining market, while I understand lines may converge, I'm less sure that Canon would give up the 7D market-space (I don't see the 1D line as a realistic alternate for many owners, given the price differential) when it seems to have such a strong following, and I agree with the logic of reef58 's comment about markets and expensive lenses.

Cheers,

Stoical

It's not just Canon. Nikon has already made it official that there will be no update/replacement for the D500 which is the same type of APS-C body optimized for sports/action/wildlife.

I think both companies hope they can steer those buying 7D/D500 bodies to use with expensive super telephoto lenses to full frame bodies like the 1D X Mark II and D5. What they don't seem to get is that many BIF photographers want the pixel density of the 7D Mark II/D500 only offered in FF bodies by the likes of the 5Ds/5Ds R and D850 while also keeping the frame rates of the 7D Mark II and D500. No one currently offers a FF camera with 70+ MP and 10 fps with continuous AF tracking between each frame.

Then there are the 7D Mark II users shooting field sports with a 70-200/2.8. A FF camera would require a 300/2.8 (at $6K vs. $1,800) for the same reach. For those shooters, it makes no economic sense to buy the $6K lens. There's not enough money in shooting youth league/high school/small college to justify that kind of expense. Even the pro sidelines are more and more populated mostly by wealthy "weekend warriors" willing to outspend full time sports shooter on gear and then shoot for virtually nothing just to have sideline access to games. It's worse now than in 2015 when this article was published:


What Killed Editorial Sports Photography?: You’ve Got To Hustle As A Sports Shooter These Days


One reason many 7D Mark II users are getting antsy is that their 7D mark II bodies bought in late 2014 and 2015 are starting to get long in the tooth in terms of shutter count. These cameras are used for sports/action/wildlife where high frame rates and long sessions are common. While we are happy with using our 7D Mark IIs a bit longer until an fully adequate replacement is available, we also do not want to have to purchase *another* 7D Mark II body in 2019 while we are waiting.

While it is true that many are getting well past 500,000 clicks before shutter failure, the chances of shutter issues start increasing appreciably at about 150,000-250,000. Less than two-thirds of 7D Mark IIs make it past 250,000, which means once you are past 200,000 or so, there's a one-in-three chance you'll have shutter issues by 250,000. Those odds are too high to depend on a body for paid work without owning a backup copy.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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This is NOT a replacement for the 7D.. unfortunately. The "promiss" to mix both 80D and 7DII into one body was, as predicted, impossible. I wonder when it will be the "right time" to get a new 7DII body in terms of price drop. Cause in the spec, the 90D and the 7DII are almost the same.
The 7D Mark II has the tougher build and shutter with a higher life rating. The 90D has a *slightly* better sensor but a *moderately* weaker AF system.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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The expansion modes always prioritizes focusing with the center point, only using the neighboring points to make tracking more robust. Whereas the nine-point mode will in general just pick the point(s) that's closest to the camera and focus on that.
... such as the wing tip of a large bird instead of the head.


That is interesting.
The 7D2 had a 150k pixel metering sensor which in theory means the 90D iTR should be superior.
Now, if their subject recognition and processing has improved for a half-decent eye AF this may reduce the need for the 1+4 or 1+8 focussing modes.

But I realise I am probably being optimistic...

There's certainly room for improvement of iTR as implemented in the 7D Mark II. The 1D X Mark II does iTR noticeably better than the 7D Mark II.

As far as Single AF point with 4 or 8-point expansion versus 9-point Zone AF goes, see my response to Sharlin above.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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All goods points! But I the AF will be fine once practised with it...won’t know until we have a go with it of course. At least it will be superb for perched birds!!! I’ve always thought that hand-eye coordination is the most important determinant in BIF photography. practice makes perfect!
No one is saying one won't be able to get any shots with a 90D. But anyone who is an expert with BIFs understands that better AF means a higher keeper rate. Smaller birds, such as the one you shared, tend to dip their wings as they flit about in a zig-zag manner more than larger birds that tend to fly with wings more level in straighter paths do. By waiting until the bird's wings are tilted to such an extent that they are almost parallel with the camera's sensor means 9-point Zone AF vs. Single point AF with expansion doesn't make a whole lot of difference. With larger raptors such as condors and eagles, the difference between 9-point zone AF in the 80D and Single point AF with expansion in the 7D Mark II is the difference between getting the tip of the wing that is four feet closer to the camera in perfect focus rather than the bird's head that is four feet further from the camera.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,062
514
I believe iTR was mentioned in the promo video. But here it is straight from the horse's mouth. Now, they emphasize face detection here but that's likely just marketing. The 80D doesn't have full iTR probably mostly because the resolution is so low (but does have a form of color tracking, at least in theory). But resolution is no longer a hindrance, and indeed a 220,000 pixel metering sensor wouldn't really make much sense if it weren't used for AF tracking as well.

View attachment 186213
It's good to see the 80D is getting iTR. With only a single DiG!C processor, it remains to be seen how responsive it will be and if it will slow down the maximum frame rate significantly.


All of the previous models with iTR have "face tracking" as an iTR option. It remains to be seen how much, if any, the facial tracking of the 80D's iTR will be. When the 5D Mark IV came out about six months after the 1D X Mark II, Canon touted the 5D Mark IV's improved facial recognition when subjects are wearing helmets (e.g. race car drivers or football players). The improvement seemed to many to be rather subtle, rather than a quantum leap forward.
 
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Aug 25, 2019
7
6
No one is saying one won't be able to get any shots with a 90D. But anyone who is an expert with BIFs understands that better AF means a higher keeper rate. Smaller birds, such as the one you shared, tend to dip their wings as they flit about in a zig-zag manner more than larger birds that tend to fly with wings more level in straighter paths do. By waiting until the bird's wings are tilted to such an extent that they are almost parallel with the camera's sensor means 9-point Zone AF vs. Single point AF with expansion doesn't make a whole lot of difference. With larger raptors such as condors and eagles, the difference between 9-point zone AF in the 80D and Single point AF with expansion in the 7D Mark II is the difference between getting the tip of the wing that is four feet closer to the camera in perfect focus rather than the bird's head that is four feet further from the camera.
I try to use single point for larger slower flying birds get it on the eye (not easy I know) and make sure I shoot at least f5.6 and greater for more dof to reduce the wing-tip issue. With practice it can be done!
 

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