traveller said:
I have my own empirical facts.
I have a 7D2 and a 5D4. There are less "pixels per bird" from the 5D4 but the 7d2 hardly sees any use now. The improved dynamic range and noise performance of the 5D4 wins every time.
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I doubt this is even [CR1] but I guess it starts somewhere - 7D3 specs?
- Thread starter Mikehit
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I have my own empirical facts.
I have a 7D2 and a 5D4. There are less "pixels per bird" from the 5D4 but the 7d2 hardly sees any use now. The improved dynamic range and noise performance of the 5D4 wins every time.
Adrianf said:
The 5D4 sensor is a generation newer and superior to the 7D2's in terms of dynamic range. Per pixel noise performance should be similar between the two in a focal length limited situation (i.e. where you are cropping the 5D4 image to achieve the same subject framing). Of course, I'd be interested to actually see your image comparisons, rather than just read your statement.
One question: what advantage would running a crop sensor camera alongside your full frame body provide if they had exactly the same pixel density? Sure, a 7D3 will almost certainly have a higher frame rate than the 5D4, but if your buying two cameras that add up to $4500+ to get both speed and sensitivity, you'd be better off just buying a 1D X2?
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If there is to be noan AA-filter, then I just hope that it will not be a Dual Pixel sensor.
These Dual Pixel sensors tend to be (a bit) soft. You can get used to it (e.g. if you went from the 70D to the 80D like I did), but when you see the results of cropped camera's without Dual Pixel AF, the softness of Dual Pixel becomes evident. Even when compared to older models with a "regular" sensor.
To put it bluntly: for all the good Dual Pixel has, the 7D Mark III is an action PHOTOGRAPHY camera and will not be targeted at video enthousiast, so there is no reason at all to have this technology in it at the expense of softer images. A bit of additional "softness" in an image quickly destroys gains in more detail from a higher pixel count.
These Dual Pixel sensors tend to be (a bit) soft. You can get used to it (e.g. if you went from the 70D to the 80D like I did), but when you see the results of cropped camera's without Dual Pixel AF, the softness of Dual Pixel becomes evident. Even when compared to older models with a "regular" sensor.
To put it bluntly: for all the good Dual Pixel has, the 7D Mark III is an action PHOTOGRAPHY camera and will not be targeted at video enthousiast, so there is no reason at all to have this technology in it at the expense of softer images. A bit of additional "softness" in an image quickly destroys gains in more detail from a higher pixel count.
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haggie said:
Are they soft? By coincidence, I have just been comparing my M5, which has DPAF, with my 5DSR, which doesn't, and the M5 sensor is really very good, and better than that on my 7DII.
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33306.msg689054#msg689054
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haggie said:
Is there something to this? Does the DPAF ability truly come at the cost of the sensor's resolving power?
(I know what you mean though - the newest generation of Canon cameras ARE a bit softer in general, haven't quite been able to figure out why though. Strength of AA filter?)
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Considering even the new 1DX2 has DPAF, I'm almost certain a hypothetical 7D3 will have it too - AA filter or not.
As for the AA filter - FWIW, Canon recently added a moire reduction tool into its DPP software. This would tell me that there is a possibility of at least one future camera from them without the AA filter (I would guess the replacement for the 5DS/R). Ideally, the perfect situation would be to have an adjustable AA filter that the photographer can enable or disable depending on the subject being shot. I'd imagine you could leave such a filter turned off by default and switch it on only when shooting patterns (clothing, brick walls) or certain types of birds (detail in feathers).
I agree about the 7D vs the 5D - I used the 7D/7D2 for action and animal photography for some time (automatically went to it due to the extra reach)...until I wanted to shoot the same thing but found myself with the 5D3 instead. Despite the loss of reach (which wasn't even as noticeable as I thought it would be), viewing the image later was a revelation. I don't think the 7D saw another click after that...at least not until I parted with it. The 5D4 (although I was initially lukewarm over it) has turned out to be a good compromise between the 5D3 and 7D2 - a little more speed and some more pixels over the 5D3 (making up part of the reach deficit) puts it right in the middle and I've found it to be a good replacement for both.
As for the AA filter - FWIW, Canon recently added a moire reduction tool into its DPP software. This would tell me that there is a possibility of at least one future camera from them without the AA filter (I would guess the replacement for the 5DS/R). Ideally, the perfect situation would be to have an adjustable AA filter that the photographer can enable or disable depending on the subject being shot. I'd imagine you could leave such a filter turned off by default and switch it on only when shooting patterns (clothing, brick walls) or certain types of birds (detail in feathers).
I agree about the 7D vs the 5D - I used the 7D/7D2 for action and animal photography for some time (automatically went to it due to the extra reach)...until I wanted to shoot the same thing but found myself with the 5D3 instead. Despite the loss of reach (which wasn't even as noticeable as I thought it would be), viewing the image later was a revelation. I don't think the 7D saw another click after that...at least not until I parted with it. The 5D4 (although I was initially lukewarm over it) has turned out to be a good compromise between the 5D3 and 7D2 - a little more speed and some more pixels over the 5D3 (making up part of the reach deficit) puts it right in the middle and I've found it to be a good replacement for both.
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Wow. Seems like just last week I was considering one of these. Time goes so quickly. It was actually when the 7D II was released.
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Act444 said:
I don't think they are softer. I had the 70D and mine was very sharp. Maybe AFMA? I think the 7D series allows that.
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I’m not interested in most of these specs! I don’t want 30 mp or no anti-alias Filter. A fully articulating touch LCD screen is better than tilting. 24 mega pixel is going to eat up enough hard drive when I shoot raw. Canon may get my money if I buy glass. But if they start chasing mega pixels I will keep using my gear or stop taking pictures. I don’t take as many pics as in years past. As long as my 7D can take pictures, upgrading will be on hold once again!
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Aussie shooter
https://brettguyphotography.picfair.com/
I don't think 30mp makes much sense. 24 at most but to be honest even 22 would be fine which would also give better high iso performance and improved DR providing canon go the newest tech sensor. I am personally more than happy with 10fps as more simply means more work later on searching through the myriads of throw away shots to pick the best. Tilting screen is fine but I would not be happy with a fully articulating as it would mean sacrificing space for those buttons and this is NOT a landscape camera(at least not primarily). I would be happy if they dropped the AA filter but TBH if they didn't it would not upset me too much. Getting a meter or two closer to your subject will make more difference in the long run. The one thing I think that REALLY matters apart from a new tech sensor and associated improvement in high iso performance is the incorporation on the 1dx2 autofocus system and the extra f8 autofocus points. Apart from those two things the 7d2 is already close to perfect
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ExodistPhotography
Photographer, Artist & Youtuber
Mikehit said:
28MP Sensor seems very likely, but 30 seems to large of a jump. Even if Canon could, they would still want to milk the market a bit longer. Plus it would still be high MP for an APS-C sensor. They are going to have to work on the cleaner sensor noise without a doubt..
4k-30p with a 1.4x?? This number is strange, Its already a 1.6x, so likely it would be around a 2.0x to 2.2x crop. Reason would be for the 4k at a 2x2 pixel bin would be around 16MP.. So wanting full sensor readout and 4k on a 28-30MP sensor isn't going to be possible without some trade off.
12FPS is possible. Canon knows they have to compete with Nikon and Sonys latest speed demons. Possible they would have to introduce enhanced + versions of the Digic7.
No AA Filter, god I hope so.. AA can be done software side in the camera just like sharpening or even in post. There is simply no reason for there to be an physical filter at this point. NOT saying it does not need to be an option. But this is easy done with software these days..
1Dx II Focus Point, very likely and it would allow Canon to reuse existing hardware.
Tilting Touch Screen.. Of course.
Wifi/BT/NFC.. Of course..
Cfast & SD.. Sounds reasonable..
$2000 USD. Of course.. I can not see Canon raising the price tag and still being competitive.
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aceflibble said:
They post on Internet, read on Internet, don't take photo. That why.
Aussie shooter said:
Make perfect sense. Canon want 7D Mark III have 30-something MP. Clear advantage over Nikon/Sony.
Shopper go to store and think, "24 or 30? Same price. 30 is more so I buy it."
7D Mark III with 30MP APS-C early in 2018. Every Canon APS-C follow also have 30MP? 90D 30MP? Where Nikon and Sony now?
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ExodistPhotography said:
2x2 pixel binning to 4K would require a 8K sensor, 46Mpix or so, like the D850. The 5D4 does 1:1 readout from 30Mpix, resulting in the unfortunate 1.7x crop. But you're right, 1.4x from 30Mpix definitely doesn't make sense. Not that this rumor is plausible anyway.
OTOH 24Mpix is just the right size for doing a 3:2 downsample to 4K.
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unfocused
Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
I'm surprised that AA Filters generate such intense feelings. Personally, I can't get that worked up either way.
The presence of an AA Filter doesn't seem to have stopped good photographers from taking great pictures and the absence of an AA Filter in the 5DsR doesn't seem to be creating a huge number of problems.
It's a sign of how good cameras are today that internet forums are reduced to arguments over such trivial matters.
The presence of an AA Filter doesn't seem to have stopped good photographers from taking great pictures and the absence of an AA Filter in the 5DsR doesn't seem to be creating a huge number of problems.
It's a sign of how good cameras are today that internet forums are reduced to arguments over such trivial matters.
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Very much depends on what video abilities this camera has. CFast cards in professional cinematography use have not been a reliable format with numerous failures (used with Arri cameras). The Red Cameras Helium S35 which is "similar" to APS-C is 35.4MP 8K and has the throughput up to 300MB/s but doesn't use CFast.
The Canon 7D MKIII will not have video or still frame rate approaching the Red Camera so high end SD cards would likely suffice at least they are more reliable than the CFast cards.
My take is Canon could do a 30MP camera and could shoot up to 12FPS the pixel size / noise can be overcome but they will need pretty impressive processing to do so which may make a $ 2K or sub-2K camera difficult.
Again from a video perspective a missing AA filter could be an issue moire often looking worse on a moving image.
The Canon 7D MKIII will not have video or still frame rate approaching the Red Camera so high end SD cards would likely suffice at least they are more reliable than the CFast cards.
My take is Canon could do a 30MP camera and could shoot up to 12FPS the pixel size / noise can be overcome but they will need pretty impressive processing to do so which may make a $ 2K or sub-2K camera difficult.
Again from a video perspective a missing AA filter could be an issue moire often looking worse on a moving image.
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CanonFanBoy said:
My point with regards to the 7D Mark III is that Dual Pixel sensors are not needed for the 7D mark III because its primary audience will need it.
Dual Pixel sensors are fantastic for video and to some extend for Live View shooting.
The primary purpose of the "7D" is photography of swift subjects, e.g. sports, aircraft in flight and birds in flight. This is never done in Live View; this is where the optical viewfinder is at it's best.
Replies in this thread show that many of this type of user want improvements in AF and better IQ. The 7D Mark II for sure is a capable camera (I am in doubt to buy it or wait for the 7D Mark III). But I have been in the position lately to compare the EOS 80D, EOS 7D Mark II, Nikon's D7300 and Nikon's D500 with images taken at (almost) the same instant. And although I am a 'Canon fanboy' for several decades, the better images of the D500 in particular are clear.
One of the earlier responses mentioned that in post processing the D500 allows for a lot more. Well, I can confirm this. And from these (and other) side-by-side comparisons it has become clear to me that the Canon bodies that have Dual Pixel sensors are just 'softer'.
Even compared to older cameras.
And yes, even if images are resized to the same resolution.
There is at least one factor that determines that images from Dual Pixel cameras will be (a bit) softer than non-Dual Pixel sensors.
Dual Pixel technology involves 2 separate photon wells. For AF purposes they are used as separate entities (by the camera's firmware - for obvious reasons in a way not made public by Canon). To get the image, these 2 separate photon wells are 'combined' to form one pixel. Again, this is done by the camera's proprietary firmware.
When discussing the image of a Dual Pixel sensor, it is useful to realize that the limit where diffraction becomes visible in an image from a digital camera is determined by the size of the photon well and the aperture in use. The smaller the photon well, the sooner diffraction will be visible in the image. And also, the smaller the aperture, the sooner diffraction will be visible in the image.
And therefore, because a Dual Pixel sensor has smaller photon as a direct result of the Dual Pixel architecture, softer images are unavoidable.
Other contributing factors may be the required computation to 'construct' 1 pixel from the data read from 2 separate photon wells. But that is just guessing because like I just said, what the firmware is a secret.
So from witnessing: softness in Dual Pixel sensors is a thing. And at least one technical reason for it is available.
It is for sure not a matter of "thinking" and also it is not due to unsharp images from a Dual Pixel camera with sharp images from another camera (as a result of not performing AFMA or otherwise).
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Likelihood of 7DMkIII not having dual pixel autofocus is zero. There is no recent Canon DSLR from Rebel to 5D series without it. It is a best in class, differentiating technology between Canon and competitors, and it doesn't matter that most people who buy these will prefer OVF for most of their shots.
Now that 6DMk2 has an articulating screen, I think that the chances of the next 7D not having one is extremely low, with the main question being how they resolve left side buttons.
Now that 6DMk2 has an articulating screen, I think that the chances of the next 7D not having one is extremely low, with the main question being how they resolve left side buttons.
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haggie said:
Diffraction is a factor of the lens - the sensor has nothing to do with it. When viewed at the same image size, diffraction from a 40MP sensor is no different than diffraction on a 20MP sensor. The difference comes when viewing at % sizes - at any % size the image from a high MP sensor is bigger than an image of a lower MP sensor at the same %. Also, the higher MP sensor as higher resolution but 'sees' diffraction whereas the low MP sensor has less resolution.
Also you are technically incorrect. The two wells in each pixel both lie under the same microlens and are summed to create one single pixel output so as far as image construction is concerned there is no additional resolution so diffraction is no more or less visible.
What I think is more likely is that the use of 2 diodes creates more noise and how this is managed is crucial. If Canon can create a 1Dx2 and 5DIV with DPAF and image quality very close to the Nikon/Sony cameras, I wonder what they can do if they removed DPAF and applied the same technology.
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(Rest cut to save space)haggie said:
You're comparing cameras with AA filters vs without an AA filter. There is absolutely zero grounds to assume a difference in resolving power is down to the dual pixel AF when you're contending with those far bigger differences.
As someone who has had the AA filter removed on a couple of Canon cameras with dual pixel AF as well as shooting with cameras which have no dual pixel AF and lack an AA filter by default a couple of Sonys, a Nikon, and the Fuji GFX), I've found absolutely no difference in image quality when shooting such systems with comparable/the same lenses and under comparable conditions. Which stands to reason, because there's no part of the technology of dual pixel AF that can cause softer images, let alone does; Mikehit already summed up your misunderstandings there so I won't repeat them.
Yes, the D500 produces much sharper images than the 7D2 when shot with comparable lenses and conditions. So does the D850 when cropped to the same area. So does my 7D2 with the AA filter removed. So does another local shooter's 7D2 which had the AA filter removed. So does their 70D, too. I'm willing to bet hard cash that if you strip the 5D4 of its AA filter, that'll be just as sharp as well. I've got an original 7D with the filter removed as well and that camera doesn't have dual pixel, and it's no sharper than the others which do have dual pixel. Hell, I'd confidently do it to a 1Ds3 if I still had one of those knocking around.
It's the AA filter which is causing the difference in sharpness you're seeing between the cameras you mentioned. That AA filter is responsible for a huge loss of detail. It's no coincidence that the cameras you mention as being softer have AA filters and the cameras whose resolving power you prefer lack it. It's no coincidence that removing the AA filter from Canon cameras brings their sharpness up, regardless of whether they have dual pixel AF or not.
Just look at the difference in IQ between the 5DS and 5DS R, where the two bodies are identical other than the only difference that one has an AA filter and the other doesn't. If you don't 'get' the difference an AA filter makes by now you have to either have quite significantly poor eyesight or quite significantly severe confirmation bias, and its that AA filter that you're seeing softening up your Canon cameras, not the dual pixel AF.
(Disclaimer: while I am a noted fan of removing the AA filters from most cameras, I wouldn't advise it for any sensor of 16mp or less, and in general I wouldn't suggest most people bother with it anyway as it's quite expensive, obviously voids any warranty and most of the resale value of the body, can induce colour shifts if not corrected for expertly, and for many subjects won't make an appreciable difference at a normal viewing print/size. It's basically only of use for inner-industry product archive work, wildlife, and excessively large-print landscape.)
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30mp is way high IMO from a company which likes to iterate as opposed to innovate. 24-28mp max.
I could see 4k being added with some bizarre crop factor, Canon can then put '4k video' on the box despite it being a body never intended for pro video shooters.
Resolution and FPS are all that requires a little bump with price remaining the same for this to be a standard Canon update. Wifi, GPS, Touch screen etc of course it's 2017..!
I would guess it will not have a vari-angle screen to keep it in line with the 5d series idea of being a rugged, all-weather sealed camera.
I could see 4k being added with some bizarre crop factor, Canon can then put '4k video' on the box despite it being a body never intended for pro video shooters.
Resolution and FPS are all that requires a little bump with price remaining the same for this to be a standard Canon update. Wifi, GPS, Touch screen etc of course it's 2017..!
I would guess it will not have a vari-angle screen to keep it in line with the 5d series idea of being a rugged, all-weather sealed camera.
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