IBIS and 100mp coming to an EOS R camera? [CR2]

Normalnorm

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 25, 2012
538
142
No, sorry, I must be unclear.

Currently, the most reach (pixels of a small distant object) you can get without getting super exotic lenses is 50 megapixel on 600mm at f4, plus extenders. With APSC or MFT, you dont get more density than a 5DSR, so you dont get more reach. You also need to let in enough light for snappy autofocus, so it is not ok to not just put extenders on extenders and end up with an f/11 or worse lens.

100 megapixels would clearly increase that reach (again, more pixels of the faraway small object) . There will probably never be a MFT or APSC sensor with the same pixel density as a 100 megapixel AND supertelephotos with as much focal length as what will be available for a 100 megapixel full frame.

Mirrorless would be nice because that crop mode in EVF makes composition and manual focus much easier than taking the shot and then checking it after.

The closest thing to this that works like what I describe today is the a7R3, but not many people would be happy with paired EF super telephotos (slow AF, unusable with TCs), plus 43 megixels really isn't much different from 30 when it comes to cropping (surprisingly)
Correct except you said "a crop of a 100MP sensor" Thus that is the same (close enough) pixel density as a µ43. As for enough light for decent AF, as mirrorless cameras focus using the sensor, the photons per square mm are the same as FF aperture for aperture. Thus Oly's 300mm f4 is delivering as many photons to a pixel as the FF 600 f4.
The OVF in my 5DsR and mkIV both show the crops in the VF and later on the LCD.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,083
404
Correct except you said "a crop of a 100MP sensor" Thus that is the same (close enough) pixel density as a µ43.
He said crop mode (software implementation) not a physical crop (semiconductor dicing). A camera which delivers either 100MP full frame images or 25MP when heavily cropped is not available now.
525589BF-08E3-4743-858F-310ED2BB77C0.jpeg
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
542
411
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Edit: Phone messed up and hit reply before I could type anything...

First up, I don't fully understand the details myself, but I've been interested in the topic for a few weeks now and did some basic research. With that said, as far as I know you're assumptiin of information getting lost because of the low-pass (AA) filter in cameras is partially wrong. Some Information may get lost, but the majority is just convolved with information from the sourrounding pixels. Through a technique called deconvolution, this information can be restored. The following PDF document and webpage have some technical explanations and nice examples of what can be achieved:
- More general and technical: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.robots.ox.ac.uk/~az/lectures/ia/lect3.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0_IOl7erfAhVHYlAKHfIyCTIQFjAHegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw13sfg4ciYMGPUqW6g_u3k6&cshid=1547385810817
- Easier to read and nice visual examples: http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/image-restoration2/

The point is, for small, predictable amounts of blur like an AA filter produces, the amount of truly lost information is probably neglible. It's just a matter of applying the techniques to get the Information when it's needed.
Sorry didn't see your message yesterday as this forum doesn't show notifications on mobile view. Anyway, my point is, as far as I'm aware, all known sharpening methods are irreversible, you can't apply the inverse algorithm and get the original blurred image back exactly as it was. So there's always loss of information and some new information introduced (so called sharpening artifacts such as noise). The result may be visually appealing but you have less information for editing, 4 ex, sharpening doesn't work well with denoising. I agree AA filter does little harm but still does, it's evident when you compare samples from 5DS with and without the filter.
 

jmoya

EOS T7i
Feb 8, 2016
57
5
Now would anyone what this? They need to perfect their cameras before they release anything. Not only will I need to upgrade a my computer to handle these files but the features need to be better. Like the eos R missing the mark with no ibis, crop 4k and only 60fps at 1080p. They should've just added these on the eos R and have called it a day. Canon just does not get it.
 

crazyrunner33

EOS RP
Nov 4, 2011
266
80
Something to keep in mind is that quadbayering is becoming more mainstream, especially on the next generation sensors from Sony. Just look at the Sharp 8K camera that uses the same sensor as the GH5S. As well as the 48 megapixel cell phone sensors that are revisions to the 12 megapixel cameras. They're able to switch the Bayer mode to optimize resolution or low light. This 100 megapixel or more sensor might(hopefully) be using this technology.
 

Pape

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 31, 2018
429
266
He said crop mode (software implementation) not a physical crop (semiconductor dicing). A camera which delivers either 100MP full frame images or 25MP when heavily cropped is not available now.View attachment 182632
idea having crop mode is that you dont need carry two camera ,one for birds and another for landscapes and stuff what let you come close.
25mpixel camera shoots lot faster than 100mp
 
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mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,297
205
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
idea having crop mode is that you dont need carry two camera ,one for birds and another for landscapes and stuff what let you come close
Exactly ...

... and if you have two IDENTICAL bodies with you for landscape + wildlife you do not think about which lens is on what camera & you do not need to change it (time + dust + water). Just a switch / tap on the touchscreen und you have the right mode. Just thinking about using a 2.8 300 for an antilope in crop mode but seeing a nice group of trees with a hill which fits in the FF view of the 2.8 300. Plus you have a consistent backup system.

And a mixed system isn't always that good: I think about combining the M50 + 1.4 32 with a FF EOS Rxyz + EF 70-200 f/4 for a medium light high IQ combo. But what if the M50 (battery) dies? Only one camera and one lens left. It is always better to have two identical bodies! For me it might be o.k. to have a mixed system but for a professional who relys on catching the light?
 
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HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
457
49
Something to keep in mind is that quadbayering is becoming more mainstream, especially on the next generation sensors from Sony. Just look at the Sharp 8K camera that uses the same sensor as the GH5S. As well as the 48 megapixel cell phone sensors that are revisions to the 12 megapixel cameras. They're able to switch the Bayer mode to optimize resolution or low light. This 100 megapixel or more sensor might(hopefully) be using this technology.

---

Ideally what SHOULD be happening is that SOMEONE BIG (i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic) licences Sigma's STACKED RGB sensor technology (aka Foveon Image Sensor) and puts it in a FULL FRAME SENSOR camera! A full frame sensor using STACKED RGB photosites would IDEALLY HAVE only 6000 by 4000 pixels (i.e. is a 3:2 aspect ratio) so that it woud be 24 megapixels BUT each stacked RGB photosite would be a full 6 microns in size in a NON-BAYER format. This means the SENSITIVITY of the band-pass layers within a stacked RGB photosite would PROBABLY allow the sensor to be equivalent in low-light level imaging power that is close to or even exceeds the Sony A7s2 which is by definition an EXCELLENT LOW-LIGHT CAMERA!

This means we could have Canon 1DxMk2 IQ mated to 24 megapixels resolution added to Sony A7s2 low-light imaging capability in a SINGLE inexpensive mirrorless camera package that costs less than $2000 US! That would definitely make MANY photographers happy! With that sort of sensor stacked RGB photosite technology, it actually makes VIDEO easier to manage, which also means 10-bits/channel 60 FPS DCI 4K+ video recording with 24 megapixel stills at 30 fps burst rates are NOW POSSIBLE! What a Sports, Action and Wildlife-centric combined stills and video camera THAT would be!
.
 

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
1,103
323
50
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
Since half the pixels of a Bayer-masked sensor are filtered for green light, and the green range is what human eye/brain systems use to discriminate fine details, the effective resolution of a Bayer-masked sensor is NOT one-fourth the resolution of the sensor. It's much closer to one-half, as tested using alternating black and white lines of decreasing width.
You're still talking about perceptive colour resolution rather than actual colour resolution. For amateur photography they're the same thing, but for certain professional/scientific applications we're not interested in viewing an image from a distance. We may need to zoom in to enlarge minute details and then pixel-accurate colour is important, especially in scientific fields. Or the images may not even be viewed by a person, but by a machine using artificial intelligence to identify details.

Yes, I know none of this is really important to the majority of people here, but it is for me :)
 

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
1,103
323
50
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
I would note that in the only comparison I've seen of Canon in-lens vs other in-body stabilization, the in-lens won. The tester was Tony Northrup who is pretty good at these things & included a chart. I would also note that a lot of landscape work is done on a tripod, and every manufacturer I've seen says to turn the IBIS off on a tripod. Last of all, a lot of motion blur is removable in Photoshop with the motion blur tool.
In-lens IS only wins if the lens you have actually has IS installed!

Neither of the two flagship R lenses, the 28-70 and the 50 have IS which makes the whole argument pretty weak. Even if IBIS doesn't perform as well as in-lens IS (and this is certainly true for longer lenses but normal lenses and wide angle may not be), IBIS in a body guarantees it'll work with every lens you have.

IBIS is essential in a future body if Canon wishes to compete commercially. Now, I've chosen to buy the non-IBIS EOS R over the IBIS A7III because there are plenty of other things that are more important to me right now, but I'm pretty sure Canon understand that at least for the models higher up than the EOS R the reviews are going to be pretty brutal if it doesn't have IBIS.
 

danski0224

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 24, 2011
1,089
4
Unmanageable? Hardly, I regularly include dozens of 5Ds images in high res survey panos, and I'm working on a 2010 Mac Pro
Well, for me it would be unmanageable. The file sizes would likely more than double, so I would routinely be over 2Gb.
The stitching programs seem to handle the file sizes OK.
But the editing phase is where I am running into problems when the file size is over 2Gb or 60,000 pixels. I don't know if the subscription Lightroom is better than what I have for large file size editing. I have CS6, but never really got into it when Lightroom was suitable for me.

I haven't looked to see if the alternatives to Adobe are any better with large file sizes.
 

danski0224

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 24, 2011
1,089
4
---

Ideally what SHOULD be happening is that SOMEONE BIG (i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic) licences Sigma's STACKED RGB sensor technology (aka Foveon Image Sensor) and puts it in a FULL FRAME SENSOR camera! A full frame sensor using STACKED RGB photosites would IDEALLY HAVE only 6000 by 4000 pixels (i.e. is a 3:2 aspect ratio) so that it woud be 24 megapixels BUT each stacked RGB photosite would be a full 6 microns in size in a NON-BAYER format. This means the SENSITIVITY of the band-pass layers within a stacked RGB photosite would PROBABLY allow the sensor to be equivalent in low-light level imaging power that is close to or even exceeds the Sony A7s2 which is by definition an EXCELLENT LOW-LIGHT CAMERA!

This means we could have Canon 1DxMk2 IQ mated to 24 megapixels resolution added to Sony A7s2 low-light imaging capability in a SINGLE inexpensive mirrorless camera package that costs less than $2000 US! That would definitely make MANY photographers happy! With that sort of sensor stacked RGB photosite technology, it actually makes VIDEO easier to manage, which also means 10-bits/channel 60 FPS DCI 4K+ video recording with 24 megapixel stills at 30 fps burst rates are NOW POSSIBLE! What a Sports, Action and Wildlife-centric combined stills and video camera THAT would be!
.
Well, the Sigma Merrill cameras have a sensor that is 1:1:1 R/G/B stacked, and they are not excellent low light cameras by any means, but they are not "full frame" either.

The Quattro cameras have a different sensor that has fewer pixels for the two lower layers, and it is not a good low light camera, either. Nor is it "full frame".

One reason for the change is the amount of data from the Merrill sensor, and the time required to process it. A 24 MP 1:1:1 sensor would have roughly twice the data from the 15MP Merrill sensor cameras.

The engineering challenges must be high.

I'd love to see something around a 24MP Foveon sensor in "full frame" though. It would be roughly equal to a 75MP Bayer based sensor in resolution/detail.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
You're still talking about perceptive colour resolution rather than actual colour resolution. For amateur photography they're the same thing, but for certain professional/scientific applications we're not interested in viewing an image from a distance. We may need to zoom in to enlarge minute details and then pixel-accurate colour is important, especially in scientific fields. Or the images may not even be viewed by a person, but by a machine using artificial intelligence to identify details.

Yes, I know none of this is really important to the majority of people here, but it is for me :)

If you need to do scientific applications, get lab grade equipment, not cameras intended for taking pictures. But be prepared to pay several orders of magnitude more for it.

Most lab grade cameras are like astronomical cameras: the camera itself is monochrome. A color image is made by combining multiple exposures with different color filters in the light path for each exposure, or they use a beam splitter to divide the light signal to several identical sensors, each filtered for a different color.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
---

Ideally what SHOULD be happening is that SOMEONE BIG (i.e. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic) licences Sigma's STACKED RGB sensor technology (aka Foveon Image Sensor) and puts it in a FULL FRAME SENSOR camera! A full frame sensor using STACKED RGB photosites would IDEALLY HAVE only 6000 by 4000 pixels (i.e. is a 3:2 aspect ratio) so that it woud be 24 megapixels BUT each stacked RGB photosite would be a full 6 microns in size in a NON-BAYER format. This means the SENSITIVITY of the band-pass layers within a stacked RGB photosite would PROBABLY allow the sensor to be equivalent in low-light level imaging power that is close to or even exceeds the Sony A7s2 which is by definition an EXCELLENT LOW-LIGHT CAMERA!

This means we could have Canon 1DxMk2 IQ mated to 24 megapixels resolution added to Sony A7s2 low-light imaging capability in a SINGLE inexpensive mirrorless camera package that costs less than $2000 US! That would definitely make MANY photographers happy! With that sort of sensor stacked RGB photosite technology, it actually makes VIDEO easier to manage, which also means 10-bits/channel 60 FPS DCI 4K+ video recording with 24 megapixel stills at 30 fps burst rates are NOW POSSIBLE! What a Sports, Action and Wildlife-centric combined stills and video camera THAT would be!
.

The reason no one is using Foveon style sensors is precisely because they are so terrible in low light. None of the layers are "trapping" all of the photons falling on that layer or there wouldn't be anything left for the layer(s) underneath. There is nothing intrinsically different about a photon of "green" light and a photon of "blue" light except the frequency at which it is vibrating.
 
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Jan 14, 2019
2
0
I'am a french studio photographer since 20 years and I use Canon digital cameras since 15 years and I hope the integration of an IBIS and a better dynamic range instead higher Mpx !
 

keithcooper

EOS 7D MK II
Well, for me it would be unmanageable. The file sizes would likely more than double, so I would routinely be over 2Gb.
The stitching programs seem to handle the file sizes OK.
But the editing phase is where I am running into problems when the file size is over 2Gb or 60,000 pixels. I don't know if the subscription Lightroom is better than what I have for large file size editing. I have CS6, but never really got into it when Lightroom was suitable for me.

I haven't looked to see if the alternatives to Adobe are any better with large file sizes.
I use CS6 - .psb files can handle up to 300k pixels wide

LR has no place whatsoever in my pano workflow. Sorry but CS6 will easily do all you need in this area.
Lots of RAM helps though - but if i can do prints over 40 feet long from an old 2010 Mac Pro, there are no issues ;-)
 

crazyrunner33

EOS RP
Nov 4, 2011
266
80
How does that work? The GH5S has a 4k sensor. Does the sharp use two of them put side by side?
It's a variation of the same sensor. The GH5S has quad bayering on the sensor, it's just being utilized in a 4K mode. The sensor uses binning on 4 pixels to create 1 to be used for bayer. It's very similar to this sensor for smartphones:

https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_introduces_imx586_sensor_with_48_mp-news-32367.php

Camera sensor technology is really being pushed hard in order to make cell phone cameras usable, we're just finally starting to see this technology trickle into larger sensors.