Interview: DPReview speaks to the “father of the EOS-1”

SaP34US

EOS T7i
Aug 21, 2018
92
6
I really can't take DPReview seriously though, which is a great shame because they do have some very good industry connections. I thought I'd look around a bit as I was there and took a look at their "The best cameras for family and friends photos in 2019". They decided that the Sony A6100 is the best camera for the job, they disliked the fact that the Canon M50 cropped and didn't AF in 4K video, in a photo review! Even though the M50 is over $100 less than the Sony and includes a lens when the Sony is body only, the kit prices were $400 different on a $650 camera kit!
That doesn't make since to me when it less expensive then the Sony.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Adelino

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,961
1,170
119
While I have chosen to ignore Artie since jumping I find Ari to be well worth listening/looking to. I hope Canon reads this (I'm sure they must be aware).


Jack
Jack, my problem with reading too much into articles like that is the intrinsic assumption that we can all operate to the writers level when we can't. It is similar to my frustrations with any reviewer writing about any piece of equipment they are not familiar with.

Many people jump on and reference the Ari '1DX MkII nervous AF' bandwagon yet they are nowhere near the speed and accuracy of the top level specialists, Ari has pushed his skill level to the limits of the AF algorithm in his chosen specialty and found there is a small but noticeable difference between the Canon and Nikon AF for him in his chosen use. Others have found the opposite and trust Canon AF over Nikon or Sony AF.

in brief, it is easy to get bad results and blame the camera because somebody much better than me says so, however, if I wear Air Jordans I still can't dunk like Michael!

Sit Ari and I in a field me with a Nikon and him with a Canon and I know he would get much better results than me, and I believe that is true of most of us, we are far from getting to the edge of the AF envelope and put way too much emphasis on those who are. I was sitting in an airport the other day playing with various AF settings on the 1DX MkII, there are at least 75 different sensitivities across the different Case settings, anybody that isn't intimately familiar with all of them really can't speak to how good or bad the AF is, it is surprising and not necessarily intuitive what adjustments will give you the best results in any specific shooting situation to the extent that I will reduce sensitivity of some parameters as I get tired.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jethro and pj1974

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,029
1,403
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
Apparently those who run Canon aren’t as concerned as you two seem to be. But no matter what you both say, and want to believe, you can’t publish an interview like that that’s biased, and inappropriately edited. You can be sure the companies that are interviewed monitor what’s being published. DP has run a number of interviews with Canon the last few years. All have been positive, including this one, and respectful.

i think the problem here is your own biases, not theirs.
Agreed. Some folks on this site act like jilted lovers when it comes to DPR.

My thoughts specific to the interview:

I take all interviews done through interpreters with a grain of salt. Really good interpreters have a deep knowledge of both languages and understand the nuances. Yet, even the best interpreters would not expect people to parse each and every word in a interview. That is what happens on internet forums. People read translated interviews in their native language and then infer all sorts of nuances that aren't relevant or accurate. Read the interview and take from it the general statements without trying to read too much into it.

This was a structured, corporate interview to hype coming products from Canon. Obviously Canon sees value in providing this information to DPR and they would not do so if they didn't think they could get favorable publicity from the interview.

I do know that DPR has been critical of Canon's autofocus. (I tend to agree with them, actually). It's very possible that with the new 1Dx III autofocus improvements, Canon is laying the groundwork with DPR precisely because of the past criticism. (Of course, I have no way of knowing this, but it certainly seems like a possibility).

DPR was once critical of Canon's sensors, but with the last generation of sensor technology, they've actually been quite complementary, although they still say that Sony sensors have a slight edge -- which I think may be true according to people who follow and care about dynamic range.

I know I will never convince some people on this forum. Frankly, I find the pouting kind of amusing. And, actually, I would much rather read reviews from those who make a serious attempt to critique a product, rather than just reprint the press releases. I can look at their criticisms and decide if it matters to me. (Tiny differences in dynamic range have never interested me.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: melgross

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,029
1,403
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
...I was sitting in an airport the other day playing with various AF settings on the 1DX MkII, there are at least 75 different sensitivities across the different Case settings, anybody that isn't intimately familiar with all of them really can't speak to how good or bad the AF is, it is surprising and not necessarily intuitive what adjustments will give you the best results in any specific shooting situation...
This is probably a case where we will have to agree to disagree. In my view it is a legitimate criticism if the adjustments are not intuitive and readily apparent to users. People think that professional shooters sit around and spend days figuring this out. I don't think that's true. From what I've seen watching Peter Read Miller's videos, I get the sense he's not digging into the menus any more than he has to.

In fact, I think most expect to be able to grab the camera and within a few minutes figure out what they need. With each sports season, it takes me at least one game to relearn how to shoot that particular sport. I simply don't have the time or desire to spend hours memorizing which settings I need to use and then experimenting with them. When I go to a game, I have to come back with usable shots. I don't want to waste valuable time and risk missing an important shot.

So, for me, if an reviewer has problems nailing shots with a camera's autofocus system, that's valuable information and shows me that the manufacturer has room for improvement.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,961
1,170
119
This is probably a case where we will have to agree to disagree. In my view it is a legitimate criticism if the adjustments are not intuitive and readily apparent to users. People think that professional shooters sit around and spend days figuring this out. I don't think that's true. From what I've seen watching Peter Read Miller's videos, I get the sense he's not digging into the menus any more than he has to.

In fact, I think most expect to be able to grab the camera and within a few minutes figure out what they need. With each sports season, it takes me at least one game to relearn how to shoot that particular sport. I simply don't have the time or desire to spend hours memorizing which settings I need to use and then experimenting with them. When I go to a game, I have to come back with usable shots. I don't want to waste valuable time and risk missing an important shot.

So, for me, if an reviewer has problems nailing shots with a camera's autofocus system, that's valuable information and shows me that the manufacturer has room for improvement.
I wouldn’t disagree that the majority of people dont dig, I 100% guarantee Ari did in both Canon and Nikon. Which goes to my point if you don’t dig how can you know it is no good?

Initially I didnt have the time or inclination to delve deeper into the AF but out of the box it was much better then the 1DS MkIII, but as time and familiarity have allowed I have dug and have found the AF to be incredibly responsive, if you follow simple advise from people like Grant Atkinson then making a custom menu with the three parameters is simple and in general changing them as conditions warrant is going to get you more keepers than changing system.

I doesn’t take five minutes to set up during a game or match or race, I usually shoot for several a hours so that five minutes is a very good investment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pj1974

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,155
1,090
Alberta, Canada
Jack, my problem with reading too much into articles like that is the intrinsic assumption that we can all operate to the writers level when we can't. It is similar to my frustrations with any reviewer writing about any piece of equipment they are not familiar with.

Many people jump on and reference the Ari '1DX MkII nervous AF' bandwagon yet they are nowhere near the speed and accuracy of the top level specialists, Ari has pushed his skill level to the limits of the AF algorithm in his chosen specialty and found there is a small but noticeable difference between the Canon and Nikon AF for him in his chosen use. Others have found the opposite and trust Canon AF over Nikon or Sony AF.

in brief, it is easy to get bad results and blame the camera because somebody much better than me says so, however, if I wear Air Jordans I still can't dunk like Michael!

Sit Ari and I in a field me with a Nikon and him with a Canon and I know he would get much better results than me, and I believe that is true of most of us, we are far from getting to the edge of the AF envelope and put way too much emphasis on those who are. I was sitting in an airport the other day playing with various AF settings on the 1DX MkII, there are at least 75 different sensitivities across the different Case settings, anybody that isn't intimately familiar with all of them really can't speak to how good or bad the AF is, it is surprising and not necessarily intuitive what adjustments will give you the best results in any specific shooting situation to the extent that I will reduce sensitivity of some parameters as I get tired.
Scott, I hear you! I fully agree on the settings being difficult to fine tune and the other comments. Still, I have a hunch that there is some room for improvement that Canon may well capture with the next round of cameras.

Jack
 
  • Like
Reactions: pj1974

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,029
1,403
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
...Which goes to my point if you don’t dig how can you know it is no good?...
...I fully agree on the settings being difficult to fine tune and the other comments. Still, I have a hunch that there is some room for improvement that Canon may well capture with the next round of cameras...
I certainly would say that anyone who claims the current autofocus systems on the 7DII, 5DIV, 1DxII and even R are "no good" simply doesn't know what they are talking about. In my experience, they are all very good. I do find flaws or shortcomings in all of them and believe that (based on their 1Dx III development release) Canon agrees and is prioritizing improvements. I'm not expecting miracles, but I will take any improvements I can get. For me, it's all about making the good better.

I also recognize that I still have a lot to learn and that at 66 my reflexes aren't what they once were. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it, but I only recently decided to try switching from shutter release priority to focus priority and found that my keeper rate went up significantly -- more than enough to compensate for the delays in shutter release.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,155
1,090
Alberta, Canada
I certainly would say that anyone who claims the current autofocus systems on the 7DII, 5DIV, 1DxII and even R are "no good" simply doesn't know what they are talking about. In my experience, they are all very good. I do find flaws or shortcomings in all of them and believe that (based on their 1Dx III development release) Canon agrees and is prioritizing improvements. I'm not expecting miracles, but I will take any improvements I can get. For me, it's all about making the good better.

I also recognize that I still have a lot to learn and that at 66 my reflexes aren't what they once were. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it, but I only recently decided to try switching from shutter release priority to focus priority and found that my keeper rate went up significantly -- more than enough to compensate for the delays in shutter release.
I'm not going to publicly admit anything! ;)

Jack
 
Last edited:

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,961
1,170
119
Scott, I hear you! I fully agree on the settings being difficult to fine tune and the other comments. Still, I have a hunch that there is some room for improvement that Canon may well capture with the next round of cameras.

Jack
Jack, I have no doubt that the MkIII AF will be better than the MkII, as the II was better than the I and each preceding generation. I also have no doubt that however accomplished the MkIII AF is some people will still find the limits of it and even more will assume they have found the limits though in truth they have merely found their own limits.
 
Last edited:

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,219
82
I do use a 1-series for that, although it's not all I use it for.

It has the advantage over the 5-series of having a proper viewfinder shutter. If you have a ball head (and I do), the multispot metering is useful. The weight is such that leaving an Arca-Swiss plate on permanently, as I do, doesn't make much difference. Finally, if I'm carrying a tripod the extra weight of a 1Ds Mk III over a 5-series isn't that much more as a proportion of the total being carried.
It is a total myth that 5Dr will make a better landscape photo than a 1D. 1D wins because of the dynamic range. The difference is visible only when printing very large. By difference, I mean between 5dr and 1dx2
 

YuengLinger

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 20, 2012
2,626
746
Southeastern USA
The biggest take away for me was the confession that they have no idea what the form factor for an R version of the 1D would look like. This sounds like the true sports R is a very long way from happening, unless he was being deliberately misleading for reasons I cannot understand. Which means I will likely go for the 1DXiii and continue to wait for a replacement for my R. Probably will likewise hold off on more RF lenses for a bit longer.
I agree with holding off on more Rf lenses until Canon shows, with significantly improved bodies, they are seriously committed to the mount and the customers already buying in. I don't want to put more lens money into the EOS R basket at this point--it works fine, with its excellent primes, as a complement to the 5D IV, but otherwise I'm covered with my EF lenses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SecureGSM

TAF

EOS RP
Feb 26, 2012
344
35
The biggest take away for me was the confession that they have no idea what the form factor for an R version of the 1D would look like. This sounds like the true sports R is a very long way from happening, unless he was being deliberately misleading for reasons I cannot understand. Which means I will likely go for the 1DXiii and continue to wait for a replacement for my R. Probably will likewise hold off on more RF lenses for a bit longer.
As someone who has used used a Hasselblad, Rollei SL66, and Rollei SL3003, I would humbly suggest they look at that form factor.

It has much to recommend it.

Holding a book to your face isn't necessarily ideal vis-a-vis stability and usability.

In my humble opinion. Your physiology may differ...

With modern manufacturing techniques, it isn't even much of a stretch to try a large number of different shapes to see what works the best for the majority of potential customers.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 20, 2012
2,626
746
Southeastern USA
As someone who has used used a Hasselblad, Rollei SL66, and Rollei SL3003, I would humbly suggest they look at that form factor.

It has much to recommend it.

Holding a book to your face isn't necessarily ideal vis-a-vis stability and usability.

In my humble opinion. Your physiology may differ...

With modern manufacturing techniques, it isn't even much of a stretch to try a large number of different shapes to see what works the best for the majority of potential customers.
Good outside the "box" thinking!
 

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,029
1,403
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
As someone who has used used a Hasselblad, Rollei SL66, and Rollei SL3003, I would humbly suggest they look at that form factor.

It has much to recommend it.

Holding a book to your face isn't necessarily ideal vis-a-vis stability and usability.

In my humble opinion. Your physiology may differ...

With modern manufacturing techniques, it isn't even much of a stretch to try a large number of different shapes to see what works the best for the majority of potential customers.
There is probably a good reason why this form factor represents a very small niche among cameras. I'm guessing that Canon has explored and continues to explore all sorts of designs to determine which is most ergonomic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Del Paso

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,155
1,090
Alberta, Canada
This made me think of why every car has a steering wheel - hasn't really been improved in over 100 years. Sometimes the result of thinking outside the box is disastrous ... and sometimes it's a winner.

Jack
 
  • Like
Reactions: unfocused