Interview: Talking with Canon about the EOS R system and its future

[melgross]

Canon and Sony approached autofocus from two completely different points of view. It will take Canon's route longer to pay off, but it is the future.

Sony doubled the amount of processing power their sensors could handle, allowing for faster data output and faster autofocus. Their hybrid AF is essentially pulling twice the data from focus points using a stacked sensor with double the output. This is why the A9 is a beast at continual AF and FPS shots.

Canon created a new AF system called Dual Pixel Auto Focus. It essentially doubles the amount of data but outputs at the same speed to the sensor. This is one of the big reasons DPAF sensors have a data and heat limitation for video and high FPS shots. However, the advantage to using a split pixel detecting distance in parallax is the ability to detect the range of out-of-focus objects while focusing on an object. By being able to detect the range of objects in a shot, Canon is able to smoothly move between points. This is the biggest advantage of DPAF and it is helping their Cine EOS line by giving filmmakers the ability rack focus smoothly using autofocus.

When Sony or Nikon racks focus it has to hunt for a moment to find the depth of objects as it goes from one in-focus point to the next. This is a different scenario than capturing a moving object and tracking. This is moving from one extreme foreground element to a background element. Hybrid AF does not have the ability to know the depth between objects until it switches focal points. DPAF is able to see ranges within the shot which is why is glides effortlessly between points.

They're different approaches and they speak to the different strengths for each company. As production teams get smaller and smaller, systems like DPAF will be helping filmmakers and journalists capture cinematic quality moments without the need for additional equipment in the field. Sony will be hitting a wall for speed of glass soon that both Nikon and Canon have leapt past with their wider flange size. Perhaps they'll go the route and create a full professional medium format mirrorless to compete with Hasselblad and Phase One. Either way, we are close to another revolutionary leap forward in photography technology.

Umm, here’s the unlikely scenario of medium format again. Why this is a wish, I’ve never understood. There are three basic companies doing that now. These cameras sell in the thousands a year, not even the tens of thousands that Canon and Nikon would require. Every time Canon has another tilt/shift lens that needs to cover 2 1/4 to work on 35, the rumors start up again.

 

[melgross]

If only for the codecs / new Digic / C-log without paying an extra / new features such as focus assist, it's better actually. That said things have moved on and the 5DIV's level of video capability may not cut it for everyone at the R's price.

The word “everyone” is the ringer. Sure, not everyone. But I see too much concern for this. I still contend that this is a feature that a small percentage of buyers will use.

 

[Kit.]

It isn’t so much technical issues as financial ones. It costs $130 to add both GPS and LTE to an iPad. Likely, something like that would be true for a camera.

I think you can buy a LTE+GPS USB dongle on Alibaba for about $25.

 

[miketcool]

Umm, here’s the unlikely scenario of medium format again. Why this is a wish, I’ve never understood. There are three basic companies doing that now. These cameras sell in the thousands a year, not even the tens of thousands that Canon and Nikon would require. Every time Canon has another tilt/shift lens that needs to cover 2 1/4 to work on 35, the rumors start up again.

It's not a wish and it's not likely to happen for another 5 or so years. There are many technical limitations right now as to why those are not mainstream. There are limitations to pixel density at 35mm, speed, data, heat, AF, mass production, etc. There will be at some point, a shift to larger sensor sizes as cameras become more intelligent and faster at processing.

75% of my work is done on 35mm digital. 25% is done on smaller sensor size. I'll do one project this year on a Hasselblad. Medium and large format digital is a niche for now, but will likely become more available to the masses within the next decade.

 

[transpo1]

If only for the codecs / new Digic / C-log without paying an extra / new features such as focus assist, it's better actually. That said things have moved on and the 5DIV's level of video capability may not cut it for everyone at the R's price.

I concur- it's actually an improvement, but these video features are things the 5DIV should have had to start with and thus amount to baby steps.

If the EOS-R had FF 4K and 60p I'd buy it in a heartbeat AND invest in the new lenses and adapters, but without any confidence that they'll implement those features in the future, no thanks- I'll stay away from this first gen product and see where the line goes.

 

[melgross]

I think you can buy a LTE+GPS USB dongle on Alibaba for about $25.

You think? Where does it work? Does it work? And even if it does, it needs to be recognized by the carriers. They won’t allow just anything, they have to specifically support it. It’s unlikely they will support some generic Chinese dongle.

I couldn’t use my Watch until they supported it a week after I bought mine. It’s not so simple.

 

[melgross]

It's not a wish and it's not likely to happen for another 5 or so years. There are many technical limitations right now as to why those are not mainstream. There are limitations to pixel density at 35mm, speed, data, heat, AF, mass production, etc. There will be at some point, a shift to larger sensor sizes as cameras become more intelligent and faster at processing.

75% of my work is done on 35mm digital. 25% is done on smaller sensor size. I'll do one project this year on a Hasselblad. Medium and large format digital is a niche for now, but will likely become more available to the masses within the next decade.

It’s not likely to happen, period. North light still has that third party knock up of a supposed Canon medium format on its page from years ago when people were expecting it.

These cameras aren’t mainstream because they are bigger, heavier and much more expensive. Nothing technological will change that. And the fairly new Hasselblad and Fuji models aren’t even really medium format, even though they’re being called that. They are actually closer in image sensor area to FF 35 than they are to the half medium frame 645, which I’ve always thought of as an intermediary sized format. Not really medium format either as digital, but using 120 and 220 film back in the day, so called medium format half frame.

 

[nchoh]

Newly developed 5IDV like sensor? Why does not it utilise an electronic shutter, BSI and allow no crop 4K video then? I would say that they have just tweaked a 5DIV sensor to accomodate larger DPAF area and that's just it ...

The micro lenses have to be "adjusted" to work with the smaller flange distance.

It's made to a market segment which I'm not in and neither are you it would seem?

That’s what it really sounds like to me, too. We won’t know until the two cameras are put up against each other during some rigorous tests, but something certainly smells fishy with this “new sensor” claim.[/QUOTE]

Nothing fishy with the new sensor claim. They said that the micro mirrors were changed to fit the shorter flange distance.

 

[Kit.]

You think? Where does it work? Does it work?

I think, it's highly likely. Anyway, it shows the level of BoM prices involved.

And even if it does, it needs to be recognized by the carriers. They won’t allow just anything, they have to specifically support it. It’s unlikely they will support some generic Chinese dongle.

I couldn’t use my Watch until they supported it a week after I bought mine. It’s not so simple.

Never had such a problem. That's probably because of the eSIM in your watch. I see no reason for camera manufacturers not to use normal physical SIMs.

 

[melgross]

I think, it's highly likely. Anyway, it shows the level of BoM prices involved.


Never had such a problem. That's probably because of the eSIM in your watch. I see no reason for camera manufacturers not to use normal physical SIMs.

No. The same thing it true of tablets using regular sims. If they decide to not support the product, they won’t.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Pulling the vignetting out from F/1.2 or F/2 lenses live in the EVF is a big deal.”

It is a big deal dependent on the application and the shooter. It's probably not a big deal for the point-and-shoot hobbyist. It is a big deal when composing landscape shots for fine art and in a studio, especially when working with clients.

The fact that you think it's such a big deal indicates you must shoot a lot of fine art landscapes at f/1.2 or f/2, and do a lot of studio shooting with your subjects in a corner of the frame. Do you believe those are typical use cases?

Feel free to beat the dead horse some more, I suspect most rational people would agree that correcting vignetting in the EVF is not really a big deal (particularly when one of the touted advantages of an EVF is continuous DoF preview, where the narrower apertures typically used for landscape and studio photography already mitigate any vignetting).

 

[brad-man]

EOS R clearly is a 6D class camera. Otherwise it would be priced higher than 5D IV. entire interview is just a joke. void of any information, 100% marketing BS, like any time one of the canon muppets is "interviewed".

I have a 6D, and while I have not yet used an EOS-R, I can assure you that the R has a superior and higher resolution sensor and a way better AF system. I'm sure it has many other enhancements that I am not aware of since I am not going to replace my 5DIV anytime soon. It's not a "6D class" camera. Is it a "5D class" camera? I don't know, it hasn't been released yet. I'm just relieved that the M series appears to be an ongoing concern...

 

[Mikehit]

Sony Rumours site is having a poll on what functions from the Z6/Z7/EOS-R they would like to see in the next A series.
Now there's a turn up for the books

 

[bhf3737]

Sony Rumours site is having a poll on what functions from the Z6/Z7/EOS-R they would like to see in the next A series.
Now there's a turn up for the books

<START TROLLING>
Sony should have DPAF. I want it so bad. Come on it is 2018. I know Sony is intentionally crippling auto focus spec to protect their Venice video line. Otherwise, I'm going to switch to Canon!!
<END TROLLING>

 

[Kit.]

No. The same thing it true of tablets using regular sims. If they decide to not support the product, they won’t.

There is an even more interesting solution: M.2 NGFF interface slot like the notebooks have for their RF modules. So, people could buy network operator-certified M.2 LTE modems like Huawei ME906V - and replace them with something faster and/or more compatible with the current network operator any time they want.

 

[Donkey_Kong]

No. The same thing it true of tablets using regular sims. If they decide to not support the product, they won’t.

Why wouldn’t cameras just continue to use Bluetooth or wifi to transfer files straight to our phones?

 

[fullstop]

I have a 6D, and while I have not yet used an EOS-R, I can assure you that the R has a superior and higher resolution sensor and a way better AF system. I'm sure it has many other enhancements that I am not aware of since I am not going to replace my 5DIV anytime soon. It's not a "6D class" camera. Is it a "5D class" camera? I don't know, it hasn't been released yet. I'm just relieved that the M series appears to be an ongoing concern...

EOS R is exactly what 6D III should have been. An old 5D IV sensor does not make it a 5D class camera. Not by a long way. 3 fps tracking AF. A bad joke in 2018.

 

[Mikehit]

. An old 5D IV sensor does not make it a 5D class camera.

Your desire to criticise Canon really does make you unable to read. Canon say this is an adapted 5DIV sensor, so whichever way you look at it is is a new sensor.

 

[Mr Majestyk]

Might be a different sensor, but ti still has the same DR, still has the same slow readout speed which is why the DPAF is too slow to do more than 3fps tracking. Approximately 1/8s for a mirrorless sensor is pretty poor and Canon should have known readout speed is of paramount importance for mirrorless. To not even offer BSI, when they have the patents is poor form. Unless they get all new sensor tech in place for their higher end models, they'll struggle enormously and yet again just rely on glass.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Unless they get all new sensor tech in place for their higher end models, they'll struggle enormously and yet again just rely on glass.

True...as long as you define 'struggle' as selling more ILCs than any other manufacturer. That's not how most people define it, but whatever floats your boat.