Is the Canon EOS 5DS series to be replaced by a mirrorless camera? [CR1]

Aug 21, 2018
109
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#41
Heh. And there's me, going back to the 5D3 from the 5Ds because it's almost as good most of the time and I don't need the huge file sizes! My pics must be terrible taken with such antiquated equipment ;)
lmao. it has nothing to do with you or your camera's ability to take good pics. It has everything to do with getting value for your investment. Just because I can afford the EOS R, doesn't mean it's the best way to spend $2300 considering I can get more performance for the money. Do I "need" the extra performance? Perhaps not, but why would I want LESS for MORE money?
 
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jebrady03

EOS Rebel SL2
Feb 2, 2011
514
10
39
Sarasota, FL
#42
I agree that Canon likes to recycle tech (is that even up for debate?) but rather than recycle the 50mp FF sensor, why not go with a FF version of the 80D sensor? Here's the math...

1.6x crop x 1.6x crop = 2.56 (that's how much larger a Canon FF sensor is vs a Canon APSC sensor).
The 80D is 24.2 mp so 24.2 x 2.56 = 61.95mp (aka, 62mp).

A 62mp, DPAF, on-sensor ADC sensor would be fairly well received, IMO. Would it be best in class at DXO? No. But, Canon sensors never are.

Combine that with some insanely sharp RF glass and you have a winner, IMO.
 

RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
2,744
19
#43
I was hoping the next 5Ds would be a 5Ds R mirrorless.

But what if Canon release a 50+ mp mirror-less and a few weeks later releases a new 5Ds R II DSLR with even more mp. What do we do? Which do we buy?
To much anxiety.
This could be very confusing. 5Ds R and 5D s RR where the R means mirrorless. I think Canon may have painted themselves into a name corner so the w/ the R meaning both cancelling the low pass filter cancellation and Mirrorless. I suspect that Canon will follow Nikon (which I know is blasphemy to even suggest such heresy) and include remove the low pass filter from the 5Ds Mirrorless. I don't think it will be called at 5Ds R.
 
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Hector1970

EOS Rebel T7i
Mar 22, 2012
869
22
#44
I hope not but I reckon they'd produce it with the 5DSR sensor or a slightly tweaked version of it.
A 5D IV sensor would be much better
I have both and I trust the 5D IV much more.
The 5DSR is capable but needs low ISO to perform well
 

YuengLinger

EOS 7D Mark II
Dec 20, 2012
1,943
34
Southeastern USA
#46
Right now IMO Canon was embarressed by Nikon when they introduced the Z6 and Z7. The R is a nice camera but it is outperformed by Nikon's offerings. An update to the 5Ds(R) would help restore Canon's leadership position,
I'm trying to imagine what exactly you mean by "embarrassed." You mean the engineers, the executives, and the marketing folk don't want to be seen in better sushi restaurants in Tokyo? Are they ashamed to go to trade shows because the Nikon folk are gloating? Is it hard for them to wake up mornings because they are just too embarrassed to leave the house? Could you tell us what you mean?
Thanks!
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
625
33
#47
This could be very confusing. 5Ds R and 5D s RR where the R means mirrorless. I think Canon may have painted themselves into a name corner so the w/ the R meaning both cancelling the low pass filter cancellation and Mirrorless. I suspect that Canon will follow Nikon (which I know is blasphemy to even suggest such heresy) and include remove the low pass filter from the 5Ds Mirrorless. I don't think it will be called at 5Ds R.
I think 5DsRR is the way to go- RR for short. It’s definitely a pirate’s camera ;)
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
625
33
#48
Ideally, they would maintain at least one 5DS/R DSLR and a MILC equivalent, but it really depends on how sales are going of the existing line.
 
Apr 21, 2015
12
2
#50
Do they have the on sensor focus working well enough to abandon the mirror cameras? I thought the performance still lagged fairly far behind the best in class SLR focus performance.
If there is a gap, why wouldn't Canon release R cameras where slower but accurate focus is just fine while they gain market acceptance? That'd be a good fit for a high rez studio/landscape camera.
I guess you'd need to know their sales numbers, and also the marketing info regarding folks switching to other systems and why. (is the volume increasing or not? Which segments? Does Canon have a prototype that'd stop that trend in a profitable way, or it it better to lure with best in class lenses?)

With no clear roadmap it'll give folks cold feet about buying EF lenses I'd think. (think they'd make a commitment like: EF lenses will continue to work on newly release R bodies via adapter for at least X years into the future? That's change the value proposition, wouldn't it?)
 
#51
If a new high resolution camera with a more advanced sensor (more dynamic resolution and no pattern noise) became available for EF mount, I would buy it.
The adapter glass size will be small (compared to front element filters) and should be good quality but I am yet to see any reviews of the adapters (CPL/VarND). Would be great to see if the wide angle CPL issues with blue sky are reduced using rear element filters vs front element.
One less filter on the front also reduces vignetting for wide angle shots and certainly less pain to add ND and associated focusing issues using a variable ND. I could potentially use the var ND adapter as sunrise light strengthens and together with a 5 stop front element ND (screw in) for pre-focus before going to 10 stop. Grad ND would always be needed on the front but we already have filters/step-up rings for this.
 
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dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
921
66
#52
I agree. Canon seems to have a new sensor for every new camera they release. But somehow each of those new sensors are about the same as the ones they replace. I would bet that the new sensor for this camera will be a modest improvement if any in DR and noise performance but will definitely include DPAF.
There haven't been anything but "modest" improvements in high ISO for years now. The brand new D850 is probably the best high ISO FF body out right now, and looking at test images (rather than DxO scores) I would place it at 1/2, maybe 2/3 stop ahead of the 3 year old 5Ds. Imaging Resource print evaluation tests would suggest the same.

The 5D IV is has a good 1.5 stop advantage on the 5Ds in terms of DR, putting it within 1 stop of the D850 and A7rIII. Would that gain be modest or substantial?

The point I was making earlier is just that Canon's new sensors tend to be curiously similar to those they succeed. I have serious doubts that they will drop a new high end sensor technology here such as BSI and catch up with Sony.
Sensors are incremental designs even when they appear to the public to be "brand new." Sony just hypes their increments more than Canon.
 

dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
921
66
#53
I'm going to go against the grain and say that I hope there is a DSLR (OVF) version of the 5Ds mk II, regardless of whether or not they also do a mirrorless version. And that they keep the AA/no AA option.

Why DSLR? I've been on extended, multi-day hikes where battery life and weather sealing were critical. An OVF camera with the same generation of electronics will always go longer on a battery. And the idea of adapted glass in pouring rain still makes me a bit nervous.

Another issue is that shooting astro-landscapes through an EVF is a pain. You basically blind one eye while the other remains more dark adapted, and the Milky Way often gets swamped in gain noise while remaining clearly visible in an OVF.

Why AA? The 5Ds + 24-70 f/2.8 II (among many lenses I'm sure) will still moire despite the AA filter. It's just not as often nor as bad as the 5DsR. The sharpness differences are so tiny...a tick on a sharpening slider...that some of us would rather have a bit of moire insurance. I can think of one wedding photo in particular where, judging by the slight aliasing effects across the groom's jacket, and the one part of his shirt that did break out into moire, the AA filter was the difference between a little work and cleaning half the photo.

Of course what I want and what Canon will eventually provide are not necessarily the same thing.
 

AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,064
285
#54
Heh. And there's me, going back to the 5D3 from the 5Ds because it's almost as good most of the time and I don't need the huge file sizes! My pics must be terrible taken with such antiquated equipment ;)
It depends what you are using it for whether the 5D3 is as good as the 5D3. Let’s face it, an iPhone is far better than a 5D3 for the zillions of tourists taking selfies.
 
Jul 28, 2016
10
7
AZ
#55
Horrible, horrible, stupid idea. I have zero interest in mirrorless cameras, period. Having seen the tiny little Sonys in the flesh, they appear to be made for small Asian women's hands, actually. The Canon EOS R is larger, but still much smaller than my 5DsR. The 5DsR fits my hands, and offers a good mounting point for big lenses such as the 11-24L and 100-400L I have, among other L lenses. Using these lenses on a much smaller body would be far less ergonomic. (I also hand hold the 5DsR quite often in bright light with very good results, contrary to what many "experts" said about it after its release.)

I also want the optical viewfinder. Other than making the camera smaller and lighter, which I don't want or need since I don't have dainty hands and/or weak arms, mirrorless offers me nothing. I don't see ever running out of shutter actuations based on my upgrade times either.

I wonder what % of pros, men in particular, really are super interested in more dainty cameras just for the novelty and size/weight difference of mirrorless. If Canon opts to take its current megapixel king down to what I would call a gimmick/trend camera, I'll be concerned that DSLRs may be headed the route of the high end stereo equipment of the 1970s and 1980s. For the most part high end stereo options are few are far between compared to what they used to be. There is enough pressure on DSLR sales already via smartphones and other cheaper options. Trying to mitigate that by forcing current model lines to mirrorless options is kind of like Windows 8 and 8.1 being launched as a response to Android and iOS, where Microsoft thought desktop users would be fine with a smartphone style OS. Another horrible idea, and those 2 options bombed horribly in fitting fashion. (Win 10 has only overtaken Win 7 recently due to free upgrades to Win 10 and the looming axe of no future updates forcing the corporate world to switch over.)

If Canon has decided it needs to offer more mirrorless to respond to Sony and NIkon, without compromising the feature set of exiting DSLRs and certainly without changing any 5D models to mirrorless, fine. Go for it, but get the 5DsR Mark II released within the next 3 to 6 months with useful upgrades and no AA filter at all, and with the mirror and existing form factor intact.
 
#56
I had both the EOS R and the Nikon Z7 in my hands twelve days ago at Photokina and was really surprised about the quality of the viewfinders, but did not really get warm with the cameras. For me the only really advantage of those cameras is having the shorter distance between the lens and the sensor. Most of the other advantages could be achieved by simply improving Live View. In Live View a DSLR basically is a mirrorless camera. Only the digital viewfinder is missing, but I could imagine solutions for that. For example a transparent LCD (they already exist) which could make the viewfinder optical and digital at the same time.

Maybe I am a little old school, but for me it is important to see the subject with my own eyes and not on a screen that looks like reality. I also do not like the idea that mirrorless cameras use whole rows of pixels on the sensor just for autofocus. A few day ago the Northrups posted a video that shows that the EOS R sensor shows strong horizontal banding if you lift up the dark areas. That's what I always feared when I first heard of the idea of using camera pixels for autofocus. Sadly even some modern DSLRs do the same. For me that is a bug, not a feature. I would rather get rid of Live View and video at all if that means that all my pixels are used for recording light again.

And beeing light is not and advantage in my opinion. I bought a 1D X, because I wanted a big and heavy camera for my big hands. Back then there already was a 5D Mark III, which was almost the same camera as the 1D X for half the price, but I hated the fact that you had to add a battery grip to make it big and heavy. If I ever buy a mirrorless camera, I want it to be 1D X size, but not the price I hope.
 
#57
I see a lot of arguments to make a mirrorless followup of the 5Ds(R):
* DPAF has the potential of very reliable AF where it counts: at the AF spot, without any AFMA
necessary, not disturbed by e.g. atmospheric turbulence, available e.g. with 5.6 400 + 2x TC etc.
* EVF is the only chance to use DPAF under bright conditions or if you use a tele lens (holding it)
* omitting the mirror REDUCES VIBRATIONS - I have a very good hit rate with M50 @ longer exp times
* potential to be lighter / smaller (more capacity for other stuff like tripod = landscape photog)
* as mentioned by others: Easily usable filters for e.g. 11-24 lens
* slower performance of the DPAF sensors in terms of frame rate
isn't that critical for landscape / architecture / product photography
* EDIT: forgotten one argument:
50 MPix is roughly 9k x 6k pixels - I see a 1.1 crop 4k mode by binning 2x2 pixels together without
to much computing overhead ...


The only drawback is - for hiking landscape photographers - the intrinsically higher power consumption of these cameras but just the lower end M50 can do 300-500 shots with eco mode enabled and a lot of reviewing of photos on the camera.
 
Last edited:
Feb 21, 2013
27
4
#58
A few day ago the Northrups posted a video that shows that the EOS R sensor shows strong horizontal banding if you lift up the dark areas.
Dpreview has also confirmed this banding. And, now that I own an A7III, I can testify that it does not have any such banding, despite having a PDAF sensor. The fact the EOS R has the banding is entirely due to Canon's relatively deficient engineering.
 
Jul 31, 2018
142
52
#59
Not even a question to me. :)
* Canon [almost] "admitted" via interview statements re. current sensor readout speeds and DIGIC computing power limits - that they are not able to launch a "mirrorfree 1D-X III" / Sony A9-type EOS R body anytime soon yet
* so second EOS R body has gotta be "hi-rez, low fps" with 50+ MP DP-AF sensor ... maybe even 60 - 75 MP - whatever their available DIGICs can handle, "just to outdo" Nikon Z7 and Sony A7R III in one spec at least. AA filter yes/no is a question - for some reason Canon seems to be really enamored with them.
* with EOS R lineup, no need whatsoever for a mirrorslapper any more in that market segment in 2019. EF lenses keep working, with CPL or ND or control ring options on top.

End of slapping is near. :)
 
Likes: nitram
Jul 31, 2018
142
52
#60
Is it hard for them to wake up mornings because they are just too embarrassed
yes, i do believe that quite some of the highly capable Canon engineers and product managers are embarrassed many mornings by the decisions forced upon them by top-brass, ultra-conservative octagenarians as well as "slightly younger" head honchos.