Is the Canon EOS 5DS series to be replaced by a mirrorless camera? [CR1]

Nov 2, 2016
219
62
That is why we have moire... the pixels are laid out in a grid pattern and the pixel density is not high enough. And that is what an anti-aliasing filter does, it unsharpens an image. Did you take comparative shots with and without AA filter to compare?
But that has nothing to do with the way the image looks otherwise. And yes, we did more than a few tests.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D Mark IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,612
136
My preference is: Weak AA > No AA > Strong AA.
Out of curiosity, how did you you reach that conclusion? Are there series of cameras which have weak/strong/no AA filter options?

I know 5Ds and 5DsR, and D800 and D800e have AA/no AA (or AA canceling) options, but I’ve never seen a strong/weak designation, let alone a camera with 3 such configurations. Maybe in the astrophotography market?
 

dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
926
70
The only thing an antialiasing filter really does is to help prevent moire.
Compare resolution chart tests between AA and non-AA cameras. With the non-AA sensor line pairs alias before extinction. At times you will run into that effect in the real world.

In fairness when you're talking about 50mp sensors that aliasing may not be visible even at larger print sizes. But on the other hand neither is the sharpness difference.
 
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dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
926
70
Out of curiosity, how did you you reach that conclusion? Are there series of cameras which have weak/strong/no AA filter options?

I know 5Ds and 5DsR, and D800 and D800e have AA/no AA (or AA canceling) options, but I’ve never seen a strong/weak designation, let alone a camera with 3 options.
No one designates their AA filters that way. But it appears that some sensors have stronger AA filters than others.
 
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AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,135
335
I have taken 30,000 bird photos with my 5DSR and only a handful have had some Moire, and not enough to spoil them, and when I say handful I mean less than 10. And, the absence of AA-filter does make a difference when cropping and using only a small section around the bird. Lensrentals measured the MTFs of various lenses with the 5DS and 5DSR and found that the 5DSR had about 10% higher, which equates to about 10% extra in focal length for resolution. I know that is approximately correct from comparing my 5DIV and 5DSR. If they both had a similar AA-filter, the 5DSR would have a factor of 1.3x in resolution. In practice it is 1.4x or slightly better.
That might not mean much to some, but for me and my fellow birders, it means that a 400mm on a 5DSR has the reach of a 560mm on a 5DIV, and the 5DS would have 520mm. Every little bit of reach helps, which is why my 5DSR is my go-to body unless I am doing difficult BIF - the5DSR has very good AF and there is pretty good lack using BBF with thefron button half depressed.
 
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tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,776
147
So? Companies should end progress because some don’t want to move forwards? Those lenses will work just fine on the mirrorless cameras. That’s the point to the way the new mount and adapters were designed. Those lenses were optimized for any Canon mount that will accept them. They should work just as well on this as on a DSLR.
So the lack of choice is what you label as progress and moving forward?
 
Likes: stevelee
Nov 2, 2016
219
62
So the lack of choice is what you label as progress and moving forward?
So are you still buying film cameras? At what point do companies have to keep an older technology around? If people stop buying DSLRs in profitable numbers, do they still have to make them to satisfy the very few, unprofitable sales that may occur?

What do you think?
 

tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,776
147
So are you still buying film cameras? At what point do companies have to keep an older technology around? If people stop buying DSLRs in profitable numbers, do they still have to make them to satisfy the very few, unprofitable sales that may occur?

What do you think?
I didn't know that you compared the difference between mirrorless and DSLRs with the difference between DSLRs and film cameras. So EOS R is better than 5DIV? I do not think so. Is it better than 1DxII I do not think so either. Hell it's no better than 5DsR and it is equal only to 6D2.

And who are you to judge/guess how profitable will be the sales that will occur? The only way to judge this is to have both cameras... Unless you are afraid that people will prefer the DSLR EF model vs your favorite EOS R...
 
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AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,135
335
Arguments by analogy are philosophically unsound because situations are not analogous. But we use them all the time because they are so seductive but facile.
 
Likes: tron
Nov 2, 2016
219
62
I didn't know that you compared the difference between mirrorless and DSLRs with the difference between DSLRs and film cameras. So EOS R is better than 5DIV? I do not think so. Is it better than 1DxII I do not think so either. Hell it's no better than 5DsR and it is equal only to 6D2.

And who are you to judge/guess how profitable will be the sales that will occur? The only way to judge this is to have both cameras... Unless you are afraid that people will prefer the DSLR EF model vs your favorite EOS R...
You’re missing the point. You want something that you want. I get that. Is it better, or worse? It doesn’t matter. What matters is what people are buying. If not enough people buy DSLRs for a company to make a profit, they will stop making them. And that’s right and proper. These companies aren’t charities. I’m not saying that they should, or will, discontinue a camera line right now. Unless the sales of a camera is already below profitability, they will likely continue it, at least for a while.

They’re in business to increase sales, if possible, and make a profit. If they can’t do that, eventually they go out of business.
 

dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
926
70
And, the absence of AA-filter does make a difference when cropping and using only a small section around the bird. Lensrentals measured the MTFs of various lenses with the 5DS and 5DSR and found that the 5DSR had about 10% higher, which equates to about 10% extra in focal length for resolution.
Sharpness and resolution are not the same thing. That 10% measured MTF difference equates to a tiny bit of sharpening in camera or in post. It does not mean greater enlargement potential.

When deciding between the two I would open files from both in PS, side-by-side, and try to equalize sharpening. I also printed samples with and without sharpening on the 5Ds file. Here were my observations:
  • While pixel peeping they were difficult to tell apart without looking at the file info or finding a section of the image with very high contrast detail. With low to medium contrast detail there was typically no difference apparent to the naked eye. (This was at 100% and 200% on a 218ppi 4k monitor.)
  • USM of 20-30%/1px would make high contrast detail as sharp or sharper on the 5Ds. But if I did that then low contrast detail often became sharper on the 5Ds file.
  • 5Dsr files, when pixel peeped, often show color aliasing and stronger stair stepping effects. As an example, you can find both in the dpreview studio scene in multiple places.
  • In fairness to the 5Dsr the color aliasing and stair stepping would never show in print. But then again, neither would the sharpness difference. Whether I sharpened the 5Ds file to match the 5Dsr file or not, I could not tell them apart at 24x36". (Epson 3880 and Hot Press Bright paper, one of the highest resolving combos you can find.) I could only find differences while pixel peeping.
Once I realized that the AA filter simply made no difference at normal print and view sizes, and was smaller than any of my other choices (lens; aperture; sharpening in post; paper) in the chain even while pixel peeping, I went for moire resistance.
 

dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
926
70
So are you still buying film cameras? At what point do companies have to keep an older technology around? If people stop buying DSLRs in profitable numbers, do they still have to make them to satisfy the very few, unprofitable sales that may occur?

What do you think?
I think mirrorless fans never bother to lookup sales numbers. DSLRs out sell MILCs by a wide margin globally. In Europe it's near 2:1, and in America it's near 3:1. Japan is the only location where MILCs out sell DSLRs, and the MILCs that are selling are the smallest m43 and APS-C systems. Not FF systems with big pro lenses.

DSLRs aren't going any where for a while.
 

AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,135
335
Sharpness and resolution are not the same thing. That 10% measured MTF difference equates to a tiny bit of sharpening in camera or in post. It does not mean greater enlargement potential.

When deciding between the two I would open files from both in PS, side-by-side, and try to equalize sharpening. I also printed samples with and without sharpening on the 5Ds file. Here were my observations:
  • While pixel peeping they were difficult to tell apart without looking at the file info or finding a section of the image with very high contrast detail. With low to medium contrast detail there was typically no difference apparent to the naked eye. (This was at 100% and 200% on a 218ppi 4k monitor.)
  • USM of 20-30%/1px would make high contrast detail as sharp or sharper on the 5Ds. But if I did that then low contrast detail often became sharper on the 5Ds file.
  • 5Dsr files, when pixel peeped, often show color aliasing and stronger stair stepping effects. As an example, you can find both in the dpreview studio scene in multiple places.
  • In fairness to the 5Dsr the color aliasing and stair stepping would never show in print. But then again, neither would the sharpness difference. Whether I sharpened the 5Ds file to match the 5Dsr file or not, I could not tell them apart at 24x36". (Epson 3880 and Hot Press Bright paper, one of the highest resolving combos you can find.) I could only find differences while pixel peeping.
Once I realized that the AA filter simply made no difference at normal print and view sizes, and was smaller than any of my other choices (lens; aperture; sharpening in post; paper) in the chain even while pixel peeping, I went for moire resistance.
There is crucial difference between sharpness (acutance) and resolution: acutance can be increased by sharpening like USM but resolution cannot be increased. Once it has been lost by an AA-filter, resolution cannot be put back by sharpening. If you have an image whose requirements are not at the limit of resolution, then it won't make much difference whether you have an AA-filter or even use a 24 mpx sensor rather than a 50 mpx. If you are at the edge of losing fine details, then the AA-filter or higher pixel density does make a difference.
 

dtaylor

EOS Rebel T7i
Jul 26, 2011
926
70
There is crucial difference between sharpness (acutance) and resolution: acutance can be increased by sharpening like USM but resolution cannot be increased. Once it has been lost by an AA-filter, resolution cannot be put back by sharpening.
AA filters don't generally impact extinction resolution. They impact sharpness so if you test resolution at a specific contrast level, such as MTF50, you will get a higher number without an AA filter. But if you sharpen the AA filtered image and analyze it you will end up with a higher MTF50 resolution as well.

It's hard to find pairs of cameras to illustrate this because Canon is both the company still using AA filters and the company that tends to have odd MP sizes (i.e. 26 vs. 24). But to give one example, the 24mp 80D and 24mp D7200 both have an extinction resolution of 3,600 lph in IR's test, using RAW+ACR, despite the difference in AA filter and lenses. It would appear that their limit is governed by Nyquist and not by the presence or lack of an AA filter, nor by differences between two decent prime lenses.

Side note: your choice of RAW converter can impact extinction resolution by a noticeable amount. While I haven't tested the 5Ds for this, my old 7D resolved considerably more detail using RAW+ACR than it did using JPEG or RAW+DPP.
 

AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
4,135
335
You can’t compare results between different sensors, such as that on the Nikon and that on the Canon, to draw fine distinctions attributable to one factor. The facts are that reliable measurements as well as basic physics argue against your unfounded assertions that AA-filters do not lower MTF resolution and can be sharpened to remove the filtering loss.
 

tron

EOS 5DS R
Nov 8, 2011
3,776
147
You’re missing the point. You want something that you want. I get that. Is it better, or worse? It doesn’t matter. What matters is what people are buying. If not enough people buy DSLRs for a company to make a profit, they will stop making them. And that’s right and proper. These companies aren’t charities. I’m not saying that they should, or will, discontinue a camera line right now. Unless the sales of a camera is already below profitability, they will likely continue it, at least for a while.

They’re in business to increase sales, if possible, and make a profit. If they can’t do that, eventually they go out of business.
And how many have preodered EOS R? How do you know Canon sales? How can you predict that people will prefer the mediocre (for now) EOS R vs. 5D4, 5DsR and 1DxII cameras or their replacements? They are better than EOS R. Until we see a serious second (or third?) iteration where we will have to reconsider - maybe depending on the sensor.
 
Nov 2, 2016
219
62
I think mirrorless fans never bother to lookup sales numbers. DSLRs out sell MILCs by a wide margin globally. In Europe it's near 2:1, and in America it's near 3:1. Japan is the only location where MILCs out sell DSLRs, and the MILCs that are selling are the smallest m43 and APS-C systems. Not FF systems with big pro lenses.

DSLRs aren't going any where for a while.
I agree. But in talking about the future, we have to acknowledge that DSLRs are older technology. Replacing the optical system with electronics is inevitable. It will also be cheaper. Maybe not now, but certainly in a few years. It will also be better.Some people want to believe that DSLRs should always remain, and that’s just not going to happen.
 
Nov 2, 2016
219
62
And how many have preodered EOS R? How do you know Canon sales? How can you predict that people will prefer the mediocre (for now) EOS R vs. 5D4, 5DsR and 1DxII cameras or their replacements? They are better than EOS R. Until we see a serious second (or third?) iteration where we will have to reconsider - maybe depending on the sensor.
You’re making the same mistake that others who can’t seem to live with the idea that what they want will be replaced with something else. It’s the: “If it was good enough for my father, it’s good enough for me” syndrome.

Don’t look at this one, first, model and decide that Canon will never do better. What kind of thinking is that? Who is talking about this camera replacing those? I’m not. But their next model might replace one or more of them. The one after that may replace even more models. Don’t judge things by the very first offering. This could replace the 6D though.
 

BillB

EOS Rebel T7i
May 11, 2017
825
75
You’re making the same mistake that others who can’t seem to live with the idea that what they want will be replaced with something else. It’s the: “If it was good enough for my father, it’s good enough for me” syndrome.

Don’t look at this one, first, model and decide that Canon will never do better. What kind of thinking is that? Who is talking about this camera replacing those? I’m not. But their next model might replace one or more of them. The one after that may replace even more models. Don’t judge things by the very first offering. This could replace the 6D though.
Or, maybe it will find a niche between the 6DII and the 5DIV, as its pricing suggests.
 
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3kramd5

EOS 5D Mark IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,612
136
No one designates their AA filters that way. But it appears that some sensors have stronger AA filters than others.
I’m just wondering what basis you used to establish a preference for strength.

Is it basically “I like the look of this camera I think has a moderate filter more than that one which I know has no filter/canceling and that one which I think has a stronger one?”

I can say I generally prefer 5DSR images to 5DS images, but wouldn’t be able to posit that something in between would best them both.