Is there an EOS R series camera with an APS-C sensor coming? [CR1]

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
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I just want a mirrorless 80d or 7d replacement with an RF mount, with RF-S lenses that I can use on my aps-c AND full frame (since the EOS-R has crop mode!).
you MIGHT get a "7D class" EOS R with crop sensor on which all RF, EF and EF-S lenses are usable.

But it would not make much sense to also create RF-S crop lenses, when existing EF-S lenses cover the segment "smaller, lighter, less expensive over wide-angle to short-tele focal length range" already and are fully usable on R-mount cameras. Not much of a market there.
 

jolyonralph

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But it would not make much sense to also create RF-S crop lenses, when existing EF-S lenses cover the segment "smaller, lighter, less expensive over wide-angle to short-tele focal length range" already and are fully usable on R-mount cameras. Not much of a market there.
Yes it would for two reasons.

1. Kit lens for the EOS R7 or whatever it ends up being called. Would be a bad fit, pricewise and for zoom range to bundle the RF 24-105 with it.

2. Lightweight video lenses for crop 4K. Yes, the EF-S lenses with adaptor will do the job here. But here's a chance for them to be even lighter and smaller and more expensive :)
 

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
111
there will be more RF lenses - all FF capable - and eventually also some more compact and less expensive ones than the first few.

I also expect price of the RF 24-105 to fall quickly to streetprice-level of similar IQ EF 24-105 II lens. As soon as early EOS R adopters' wallets are milked. :)

No need whatsoever for crop "RF-S" lenses in my opinion. In addition, Canon would undoubtedly also be criticized for "creating a totally confusing mount chaos". So no, not a chance.

But a mirrorfree "EOS 7D III" should be possible. Exactly same body as EOS R with new, fast-readout 28MP APS-C sensor, DP-AF with excellent, unrestricted 10fps Servo-AF tracking performance in any mode without small print and priced below 2 grand (eg 1799) would probably sell quite well. It would also make sense for Canon to offer a "lower price" entry point to lure birding/wildlife/sports-oriented users into mirrorfree EOS R system and reach critical mass faster. Once there, these users will replace their EF lens park over time with native RF lenses, spending more money sooner than they would by just occasionally buying some marginally iterated EF lens "Mark 4,5,6". Lots of revenue for Canon.
 
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Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
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Yes it would.......
Lightweight video lenses for crop 4K. Yes, the EF-S lenses with adaptor will do the job here. But here's a chance for them to be even lighter and smaller and more expensive :)
Plus, a video lens is not the same as a stills lens.... one likes the focus to stay the same while zooming, and one wishes much more movement of the zoom and focus controls to the amount of action..... a quarter turn just does not cut it!
 

jolyonralph

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Aug 25, 2015
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Plus, a video lens is not the same as a stills lens.... one likes the focus to stay the same while zooming, and one wishes much more movement of the zoom and focus controls to the amount of action..... a quarter turn just does not cut it!
We're not talking pro video lenses here. We're talking vlogger etc. lenses. The key factor is no noise during focus, so STM all the way pretty much.
 

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
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and focus controls to the amount of action..
i agree with your points but really think the days of "manually focussing action" are over. I think 99% of lens buyers today never touch the manual focus rings on their lenses, except inadvertently. More than 99% for crop lenses. and why should they? after all, they have paid in full for "top notch" AF systems to get a single job done: put focus precisely at the distance to selected subject and keep it there even when subjects moves about - without fuss or fail.

Canon could very well make and sell almost all of their lenses (except ts and maybe macro) without any focus ring. Especially EF-M and RF, which are all focus-by-wire. it would make more sense - if at all - to enable manual focussing control via multifunction slider bar (the one on back of EOS R). "swipe instead of twist". :)

it would also help to shave some cost off lenses and make them easier to wheatherseal (if desired).

generally, i am in favor of putting all controls needed for each and every image capture (exposure settings, focus, focal length on zooms) on camera body rather than on lenses. i only need 1 body but multiple lenses. why duplicate all those moving mechanical parts control points on each lens? Only because 100 years ago it was the only practical solution?

It is about tlme to finally and fully utilize all advantages possible with electronic/digital imaging. Transition from analogue era photography to digital age has been dragged out over a much too long time because of (wrong) bowing to some conservative users by ultra-conservative, octagenarian-run japanese companies. and looking at Zeiss' ZX1 botched UI concept, german makers are not better either. :)
 
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scyrene

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Dec 4, 2013
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Think of it as a pipeline.

Canon are going to have to make a collosal investment to produce a full suite of RF lenses - primes, zooms, super-large whites, tilt-shift.

Yes, there are no doubt going to be some lenses which have been in development for years popping out of the pipeline, but new development will focus on the RF line

Over the next few years flipping mirrors will become as antiquated as plates of silver nitrate

And there will be no need to produce two versions of every lens - nor to artificially divide the mirrorlesd lens population into two - half available in RF and the other half in EF-M

Canon are not nuts - they will develop a single system covering all needs - a fabulous value proposition to customers - any lens fits any camera, putting all their R&D into that

That's my prediction for what it's worth ...
That sounds rather optimistic to me.
 

scyrene

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 4, 2013
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Simply put, in a DSLR world, you could plan ahead and buy EF lens, which you could put on the APS-C body. Many ppl did so, including us. Not so in the MILC world. So you use your M for a travel. Great for you. But many would like to use it as a video option (I know lots of guys using 80D for video), who would welcome interoperatiblity being planned in the first place, not as an oversight cured by an EF lens.
Here's where I think this forum's skew towards enthusiasts is a problem. The fact is the vast majority of ILC camera buyers never get a second lens, a minority get a second lens, and a tiny proportion have multiple lenses. The upgrade path/compatibility thing is only an issue to a subset of that last group. I don't think Canon sees it as a problem, because most of their sales aren't influenced by this issue.
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
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Here's where I think this forum's skew towards enthusiasts is a problem. The fact is the vast majority of ILC camera buyers never get a second lens, a minority get a second lens, and a tiny proportion have multiple lenses. The upgrade path/compatibility thing is only an issue to a subset of that last group. I don't think Canon sees it as a problem, because most of their sales aren't influenced by this issue.
I totally agree. Especially with the M series cameras. They are so much smaller - thus serving a totally differnt purpose - that I think very few M users would ever consider buying a FF lens as an upgrade path. I can see M users using EF lenses if they already have EF lenses when they buy an M camera - which is what I tried to do, but the size of the EF lenses makes them almost unusable on the M series cameras. If M survives in the long run, it will be as a separate compact ILC camera line. If there are ultimately R APS-C cameras and lenses that get close to the M series size and weight, then the M may become extinct.
 

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
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I totally agree. Especially with the M series cameras. They are so much smaller - thus serving a totally differnt purpose - that I think very few M users would ever consider buying a FF lens as an upgrade path. I can see M users using EF lenses if they already have EF lenses when they buy an M camera - which is what I tried to do, but the size of the EF lenses makes them almost unusable on the M series cameras. If M survives in the long run, it will be as a separate compact ILC camera line.
exactly! Typical "entry level EOS M only" purchasers have not and will never buy any EF lenses. And the segment "EOS/EF-owner with EOS M as a second, smaller system" will also not buy EF lenses for use with EOS-M, but only [occasionally] adapt some of the EF lenses they purchased for their EF-mount cameras.

If there are ultimately R APS-C cameras and lenses that get close to the M series size and weight,
technically not possible. R mount "too large" for that. Even a "RF-S" 24/2.8 would be larger than the EF-M 22/2.0 :)

then the M may become extinct.
it will become extinct as soon as mobile gadgets/computational photography reaches IQ and photographic possibilities ["tele effect"/cropping] close to an APS-C ILC system. Then all dedicated camera systems except those with FF-and-larger-sensors will go extinct. EOS M / EF-M will likely be the very last one to go, thanks to compact size, much better price/value ratio than competitors [Sony E, Fuji X, ... ], excellent Canon user interface and Canon brand name strength/marketing muscle, good distribution. :)
 

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
111
Thought about it a little more: a hypothetical "EOS R7" with body like EOS R and e.g. a 28MP DP-AF APS-C sensor and full-bore 10fps with AE and AF-tracking with "no caveats, no footnotes, no hidden limitations" ... [and 4k/60 and dual SD UHS II card slots :)] ... priced like a 7D III DSLR, well below FF EOS R - say 1699,- to 1899,- range
with the following lenses
* EF-S 10-18 for wide-zoom
* EF-S 17-55 / 2.8 for standard zoom
* EF-S 24/2.8 pancake to go fairly small and discreet
* EF-S 60/2.8 macro as close-up and portrait lens
* EF 70-200/4 L IS [Mk. I] for short tele zoom and/or
* EF 100-400 II as long(er) tele zoom
could be a rather nice setup

Lots of EF-S lenses are available second hand in "very lightly used, excellent condition" for very little money. So one could build a killer "low-cost/high capability" crop setup. With faster glass than most EF-M lenses and body/grip size more to the liking of those who find EOS M camera bodies too small for their hands or for use with bigger lenses.

Note to myself: maybe I should take a 17-55 from the hands of some fellow who has hardly ever used it. Just in case. :)
 
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tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
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Except the imaginary RF-S 24mm 2.8 which would be larger that ef-m 22 f/2 would also be 1 stop slower!
So one can see how CR0/even CR minus one this idea/rumor is.
 

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
111
Except the imaginary RF-S 24mm 2.8 which would be larger that ef-m 22 f/2 would also be 1 stop slower!
So one can see how CR0/even CR minus one this idea/rumor is.
I see likelihoods different for the following two:
* "EOS R series APS-C sensor camera?" as per rumor/thread title -> CR 1. "Clearly possible". Especially if
1. it takes Canon takes to get an "action-/sports" capable fast-readout FF sensor and imaging pipeline together and/or
2. if Canon wants to create an attractive lower price entry point for EOS R and a nice upgrade path for current 80D/7D-class DSLR owners/buyers and EF-S owners into the great new mirrorfree RF world

* "RF-S" crop lenses: CR 0
 
Except the imaginary RF-S 24mm 2.8 which would be larger that ef-m 22 f/2 would also be 1 stop slower!
So one can see how CR0/even CR minus one this idea/rumor is.
Then yours truly should just answer, what exactly is the future path for the higher grade APS-C cameras like the 80D and 7DII then? M5II or M6II? With exactly what lens? EOS-M lens set? Tell that to any 80D or 7DII owner :) Believe me - APS-C EOS-R is just CR3 probability :)
 

jvillain

EOS 80D
Sep 29, 2018
102
82
There was an interview with a Canon exec a few months back where he was saying that Canon wanted a bigger differentiator between the 77D and the 80D. If they are applying that logic to the MILC world then I can see the M line being the where the Rebel line goes and then a EF-R mount for the 80D/7D equivalent MILC crowd.

On the other hand how many people have gone from cell phone or a point and shoot straight to dropping $20,000 for a complete FF kit. I suspect only some people with rich parents just getting out of art school. The rest dipped their toe in the water to see if it was really for them with a rebel of some flavor and then started building on that.

I suspect the M line will be a different category and then we will see may be 2 or 3 MILC APS-C R mount cameras. One very cheap as a gateway drug then a 7D/80D range. But I am not sure those have to be different models going forward. Canon is all about the segmentation though.

I hope some where down the road some one does a story on the reasearch and thought process that went into the decision making as Canon moved into the mirror less world. It will make an interesting business case study.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
208
113
Calgary
you MIGHT get a "7D class" EOS R with crop sensor on which all RF, EF and EF-S lenses are usable.

But it would not make much sense to also create RF-S crop lenses, when existing EF-S lenses cover the segment "smaller, lighter, less expensive over wide-angle to short-tele focal length range" already and are fully usable on R-mount cameras. Not much of a market there.
My guess though is that Canon will stop making EF-S lenses if/when they introduce an APS-C R.
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,076
364
Then yours truly should just answer, what exactly is the future path for the higher grade APS-C cameras like the 80D and 7DII then? M5II or M6II? With exactly what lens? EOS-M lens set? Tell that to any 80D or 7DII owner :) Believe me - APS-C EOS-R is just CR3 probability :)
So just because Canon made a FF mirrorless the fan boys think that APS-C EF cameras will die?
 

photonius

EOS RP
Jul 13, 2013
228
13
There was an interview with a Canon exec a few months back where he was saying that Canon wanted a bigger differentiator between the 77D and the 80D. If they are applying that logic to the MILC world then I can see the M line being the where the Rebel line goes and then a EF-R mount for the 80D/7D equivalent MILC crowd.

On the other hand how many people have gone from cell phone or a point and shoot straight to dropping $20,000 for a complete FF kit. I suspect only some people with rich parents just getting out of art school. The rest dipped their toe in the water to see if it was really for them with a rebel of some flavor and then started building on that.

I suspect the M line will be a different category and then we will see may be 2 or 3 MILC APS-C R mount cameras. One very cheap as a gateway drug then a 7D/80D range. But I am not sure those have to be different models going forward. Canon is all about the segmentation though.

I hope some where down the road some one does a story on the reasearch and thought process that went into the decision making as Canon moved into the mirror less world. It will make an interesting business case study.
I think the answer is simple. M came as response to micro 4/3, when that was the hype, now RF came as response to the Sony hype. So Canon painted themselves into a corner and will be pondering how to get out of it.
 
Sep 28, 2018
3
0
Canon said M50 was the entry level. So I’m looking forward to M5ii also wouldn’t mind if it had an R mount as the M glass is crap I use EFS lenses con my M5