Is there an EOS R series camera with an APS-C sensor coming? [CR1]

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
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Canada
What exactly are you sorry about? I'm not the one claiming to know what everyone else needs or should have. You are right, I am not the market, but there is a market for manual focus on lenses. Is that hard for you to understand? One guy running around saying manual focus shouldn't be on lenses because he thinks nobody needs them is just a silly thing to say. If you can't see that, well, sorry.

Sillier still, to be kind, is displaying a bias against the elderly and their ability to function well into their final years. Assuming Canon is behind (an opinion without much foundation at all) because an old man is running the company is B.S.

Degos, I don't know if you realize this or not, but people who stay active in mind and body into their golden years tend to live far longer than the ones glued to the television all day. If a CEO isn't able to do his job anymore the board of directors can remove him. I hope the guy goes to 100. I'd cheer for him all the way.
We have a paradox..... despite being an older person, I just learned that older people are incapable of learning....

I shall ponder this on my canoe trip next weekend... I would ask Degos to come along and explain his point, but he would not be able to keep up with the pace set by us frail old people :)
 
Likes: CanonFanBoy
Oct 26, 2013
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What about long exposures of several minutes.... even hours?
What is infinity focus? Infinity focus for visible light? and what happens with an IR filter? a solar filter?
Mirage has taken his position and won't budge, despite the replies that have proven him wrong. He didn't get that EF-M optical designs could basically be reused for the R mount, either, after that was explained. Same old story - people are wrong and then keep digging themselves deeper into rediculousness becasue they simply won't admit they are wrong.
 
Jul 8, 2017
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9 pages - I’ll add $.02.

M5 and M50 are cool little cameras. All the lenses seem plastic, but nice images. Suspect Canon will just watch sales of these vs T7i/77D or T6/T7 models. Go from there. They seem to release 1-2 plastic lenses a year, so they seem to know it’s a low-spend amateur market.

Doubt 90D will be RF. It would break continuity for upgrade sales, and the camera is probably 1/2 thru design calendar.

I told a co-worker when T6/18-55 refurb kits were on sale for $270. If he ever gets a 2nd lens it’ll be a superzoom, and he’ll drop the 18-55. People who want gear buy T7i or higher. M5 is the only tiny EF-M camera in that price range, but size is its selling point.

RF-S is a neat idea, but I’m making no bets.
 
Jul 31, 2018
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lenses do not need a hard stop at infinity. they need focus-by-wire with a highly precise, *fully position-aware* linear electronic AF drive and sufficiently fast and effective communication with camera. then any desired focus setting can reliably be dialed in automatically by camera software or by user (via control point on camera body). for any desired focus distance between a lens' MFD and "infinity" .. for any wavelength light (provided correct parameters are in lens/body firmware).

manual focus ring on lenses technically not needed any longer. just like an aperture ring on lenses is no longer needed. for the same reason: technical progress, electronics vs. early 20th century mechanical solutions.

those who prefer moving mechanical parts have a huge choice of manual focus lenses. But on today's new, focus-by-wire AF lenses, especially for mirrorfree system with on-sensor AF, focus rings might as well be eliminated. or be designed as user-assignable multi- function control ring - like in Nikon Z system. An approach i find a lot smarter than Canon adding yet another, extra "control ring" on each RF lenses. Why all this duplication?

Would it not be far more efficient and economic, to make lenses without any rings and put a mutlifunctional, freely assignable control ring around lens mount *on camera body*. As already seen on some Canon (powershot) cameras. of course that base ring should be highly precise, with smooth damping, and clicked/de-clickable.

Really beyond me, why camera makers don't implement such obvious solutions. on digital cameras and lenses with linear AF drive manual focus rings are as much required as a piece of black cloth over user's head. At least we got rid of that one (unless we really want one).
 
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Jul 31, 2018
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He didn't get that EF-M optical designs could basically be reused for the R mount
"RF-S" crop lenses for 20mm FFD with 54mm throat width R mount cannot be simply made by applying some "quick and dirty minor adjustment" to EF- M lenses, which are designed for 48 x 18mm mount. It would be a full-scale lens design project.

you are the one who is not able or willing to understand that, @dak723
so stop attacking me personally.
 
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Jul 13, 2013
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"RF-S" crop lenses for 20mm FFD with 54mm throat width R mount cannot be simply made by applying some "quick and dirty minor adjustment" to EF- M lenses, which are designed for 48 x 18mm mount. It would be a full-scale lens design project.

you are the one who is not able or willing to understand that, @dak723
so stop attackibg me personally.
Yes, for the barrel it would need a redesign, but the optics could be the same. Even with the 18mm flange distance (which is shorter than the 20mm flange of the RF mount), the lenses could stick a little into the RF mount, exactly like EF-S lenses stick into the EF mount. The back lens elements are a smaller diameter than the throat (like EF-S). So, in a way it would be like Sigma, that has the same optical formula for a particular lens, but makes different versions of barrels and mounts to fit Nikon, Canon, etc.
That is how I understand that M lens designs could be repurposed for the RF mount.
 
Jul 31, 2018
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Yes, for the barrel it would need a redesign, but the optics could be the same. Even with the 18mm flange distance (which is shorter than the 20mm flange of the RF mount), the lenses could stick a little into the RF mount, exactly like EF-S lenses stick into the EF mount. ...
in theory yes. But it might just as well require a re-design of microlens design on the sensor as well as modifications to a number of other parameters. I am no lens designer, but as a customer i consider "rear lenses protruding into mount" a sign of "less than ideal" lens design. Also for better protection of delicate rear lens elements I prefer lenses where all glass stays "inside", or at max. "flush with mount".

Overall i still think it would not make sense wasting effort on "re-using / re-designing" EF-M lens formulae to make RF-S crop lenses. I'd consider it a waste of effort, when EF-S lenses work just fine on EOS R mount using one of the adapters. I am quite sure Canon sees it the same way. They got their hands full to fill in the native FF-capable RF lens lineup, don#t think they got spare resources and capacity to duplicate the EF-S lineup just so a few people can buy adapterfree RF-S crop lenses. As a matter of fact those who own EF-S lenses already would in all likelihood still not buy new RF-S glass.

But by now I am used to encounter folks in this forum who will propose all sorts of theoretical, out-of-the way "solutions" just to avoid a simple extension tube adapter. :)
 
Jul 30, 2018
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Please - I need the 7D MkIII equivalent with better ISO capability. Don't care if it has the R or the EF-S mount. I use mostly EF mount currently and waiting for the crop factor advantage for my needs on super-tele primes without any TC.
 
Likes: tapanit
Oct 14, 2014
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I think the R was announced before Canon were ready, in order to compete with Nikon and try and stop any more enthusiasts transferring to Nikon/Sony. As a result, they hadn't decided on their APS-C approach, and more surprisingly, hadn't got the 5D IV equivalent mirrorless. It's going to be a hard sell to anyone who isn't already a Canon user, but that's what Canon was aiming for. Aiming low, keep what they have.
 

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
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London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
in theory yes. But it might just as well require a re-design of microlens design on the sensor as well as modifications to a number of other parameters.
I'd love to hear an explanation as to how the microlenses on an APS-C EOS R would be any different to those on an EOS-M considering both can mount EF/EF-S lenses with adaptors so the optical path to sensor (barring flange distance) should be identical.

You might consider it a waste of effort when EF-S lenses can be adapted, but under that logic why would Canon have bothered developing EF-M at all when they could have just bundled an EF adaptor and used EF-S lenses.

I think it's probably more likely that if Canon were to produce RF-S lenses they'd go for new optical formulae, but they do have the option to use EF-M optical formulae and build RF-S lenses that way, which far from wasting effort saves effort over designing new lenses.

If the produce an APS-C R camera there's no way they'll bundle an EF-S lens & adaptor with it.
 

brad-man

Semi-Reactive Member
Jun 6, 2012
1,291
66
S Florida
I have a proposition. Take it for what it is worth:
Canon will continue to develop and release EF-S cameras and lenses.
Canon will continue to develop and release EF cameras and lenses.
Canon will continue to develop and release M cameras and lenses.
Canon will continue to develop and release R cameras and lenses.
The entertainment begins when folks try and figure out which camera the next R release is supposed to replace.
 
Jul 31, 2018
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canon will *not* develop crop RF-S lenses, believe it or not.

they did develop EF-M mount and lenses to offer decent IQ in the smallest possible form factor.

EOS R mount is all about FF image circle and high-level IQ, not about smallest possible form factor. With a mount and camera size like EOS R it does not matter much, whether lenses are 28-70/2.0 pickle jar size and weight, or not.

yes, there *might possibly* be one crop-sensor "R7", but only as long as Canon is not able to make a fast enough read-out FF sensor and DIGIC chip to handle the data firehose.

But there will be no crop R-mount lenses. Just a pipe dream of some 80D/7D owners looking at mirrofree crop, because they cannot possibly afford a really long tele lens. Nothing else.
 
Jul 31, 2018
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We have a paradox..... despite being an older person, I just learned that older people are incapable of learning....
that was and is not my point. My point is, that old folks should not be in first-line, prominent power positions making decisions that greatly impact the future. I think it is one of the main reasons why so many of the "traditional cultures" where elders/the oldest were in charge were steamrolled and eliminated by "modern" cultures with leaders in their prime.

in short: Advisory role, words of wisdom from seasoned, experienced folks - yes, please, any time, thanks! Calling the shots, running the show? definitely no. not good. too much "back focus". (oun intended). :)
 
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Apr 3, 2018
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that was and is not my point. My point is, that old folks should not be in first-line, prominent power positions making decisions that greatly impact the future. I think it is one of the main reasons why so many of the "traditional cultures" where elders/the oldest were in charge were steamrolled and eliminated by "modern" cultures with leaders in their prime.

in short: Advisory role, words of wisdom from seasoned, experienced folks - yes, please, any time, thanks! Calling the shots, running the show? definitely no. not good. too much "back focus". (oun intended). :)
Donald Trump is 72 years old. Mitch McConnell is 76 years old... I guess that Russia led by Putin (65 years old) is going to steamroll the US soon?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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canon will *not* develop crop RF-S lenses, believe it or not.

they did develop EF-M mount and lenses to offer decent IQ in the smallest possible form factor.

EOS R mount is all about FF image circle and high-level IQ, not about smallest possible form factor. With a mount and camera size like EOS R it does not matter much, whether lenses are 28-70/2.0 pickle jar size and weight, or not.
Not much, true. But I like the EF-S 24/2.8 and EF 40/2.8 lenses even with 7D/5D size bodies, to it's not totally irrelevant either.

Moreover, such lenses could be *cheaper*, and that matters even more.

yes, there *might possibly* be one crop-sensor "R7", but only as long as Canon is not able to make a fast enough read-out FF sensor and DIGIC chip to handle the data firehose.
Or even if they can but it is cheaper to make with smaller sensor. I see it fairly likely they'll make both "R7" with crop sensor and "R1" with FF sensor, both fast, priced like 7D2 and 1Dx2 now.

An 80D-class R body would also be perfectly feasible.

I will be a bit surprised if they come up with a Rebel-class cropped R body, but I wouldn't bet the house against that, either.

But there will be no crop R-mount lenses. Just a pipe dream of some 80D/7D owners looking at mirrofree crop, because they cannot possibly afford a really long tele lens. Nothing else.
I own a 7D2 and a 5D4 (and some older bodies) and a bunch of expensive lenses up to 400/2.8. I still think crop R lenses might make sense and might even buy such one day. (I'm not planning to buy current EOS R, but I expect I'll buy an R body in the future, when they get around to making 7D or 5D class ones.)

Indeed I'm fairly confident at least some 3rd party manufacturers will convert some of their crop design lenses into RF mount.

Whether Canon will make crop R lenses is another matter. I think they just might. With R design there's no need for physical change in the mount like in EF-S, just signal the crop factor to the body, and I can imagine several scenarios where such a lens could make commercial sense.

Kit lens for a crop body ("R7", "R80"). A small pancake lens for crop bodies and video use (RF version of EF-S 24/2.8, say). A cheap wide angle targeted at video users.

Of course it is also possible they abandon APS-C completely, or leave it to M series only. Time will tell.
 
Jun 19, 2013
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i agree with your points but really think the days of "manually focussing action" are over. I think 99% of lens buyers today never touch the manual focus rings on their lenses, except inadvertently. More than 99% for crop lenses. and why should they? after all, they have paid in full for "top notch" AF systems to get a single job done: put focus precisely at the distance to selected subject and keep it there even when subjects moves about - without fuss or fail.

Canon could very well make and sell almost all of their lenses (except ts and maybe macro) without any focus ring. Especially EF-M and RF, which are all focus-by-wire. it would make more sense - if at all - to enable manual focussing control via multifunction slider bar (the one on back of EOS R). "swipe instead of twist". :)

it would also help to shave some cost off lenses and make them easier to wheatherseal (if desired).

generally, i am in favor of putting all controls needed for each and every image capture (exposure settings, focus, focal length on zooms) on camera body rather than on lenses. i only need 1 body but multiple lenses. why duplicate all those moving mechanical parts control points on each lens? Only because 100 years ago it was the only practical solution?

It is about tlme to finally and fully utilize all advantages possible with electronic/digital imaging. Transition from analogue era photography to digital age has been dragged out over a much too long time because of (wrong) bowing to some conservative users by ultra-conservative, octagenarian-run japanese companies. and looking at Zeiss' ZX1 botched UI concept, german makers are not better either. :)
I guess I must be in the 1% then. I do architecture and interiors photography for a living and couldn't care less about AF. 99% of my pictures are shot on a tripod, with careful MANUAL focusing in live view at 16x. Actually the quality of the manual focus ring is of premium importance for me. As much as I am interested in mirorless cameras (tough I don't need one, a DSLR is all I need for my work) the main thing that keeps me from them is the electronic viewfinder and the crappy focus by wire. I own the 40mm pancake, that is an excellent lens, but doesn't get much use with me since FBW makes me nuts.

That reminds me a bit of the Minolta Dynax 7 they gave me when I was a photographer in the army, with a motorized "power zoom"" that was so useless, I brought my own Nikon F3 to do the job.

As much as there is a place for automated photography where all you do is press the button, there is still some room for a more classic approach of photography, where manual control is not a drawback but a feature.

I can see a few other domains (landscape, macro) were critical manual focusing is important and very badly served by FBW.
 
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Jul 31, 2018
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i know, a small minority still uses manual focussing. to me it is just an old habit borne out of necessity due to totally inadequate AF systems in the past. and as a personal preference, no problem. enough manual focus lenses out there from Alpa, Angenieux ... to Zeiss ... and a new one every other day on kickstarter.

but i dont see any need for manual focus rings on "regular mainstream" AF lenses any longer given today's technology.

eg why would architectural images with perfectly still, non-moving subjects typically offering good contrast structures for AF "to bite on" really need manual focus ring twiddling?

any current day mirrorfree camera with on-sensor AF system (=no back or front focus issues) is or really should be able to nail it perfectly using AF. with numerous, small and precise AF points covering entire frame, selecting the desired focus spot via touchscreen - also a manual intervention, ;-) - plus possibly using 10x magnification, should be no issue, even with camera fixed on tripod. this is so different from yesteryears mirrorslappers with only a few coarse af points bunched together in the center of the frame! not to speak if mirrorslappers and their structural requirement for AFMA due to detached, separate phase-AF sensor.

with 2018 mirrorfree on-sensor AF cameras: manual focus ring, manual focus gear in lens ... what for? Select desired AF field and let on-sensor (DP)-AF do its job. Properly functioning, precise focus by wire AF lens is (or should be) all that's required.

actually why should not even next gen RF T/S lenses be AF (only) with an on-sensor (DP-)AF system covering (almost) entire frame and full reala-time communication between lens and body and lens characteristics parameters in camera firmware?
 
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Moreover, such lenses could be *cheaper*, and that matters even more.
i do expect Canon to offer more modest, more compact, less expensive RF lenses once they have milked early adopters with their "ultra premium" lenses.

but i do expect all R mount lenses to be designed for FF image circle. with only 20mm FFD, there is quite some opportunity for compact and even pancake lenses. eg a "RF 24/2.8" should be possible in a really compact form factor - based neither on EF-S 24 nor on EF 40 optical formula, but new optical design and fully FF capable, not for crop sensor, not as "RF-S".

APS-C cameras and lenses are and will remain to be offered as EOS M and EF-M.
 
Mar 4, 2014
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that was and is not my point. My point is, that old folks should not be in first-line, prominent power positions making decisions that greatly impact the future. I think it is one of the main reasons why so many of the "traditional cultures" where elders/the oldest were in charge were steamrolled and eliminated by "modern" cultures with leaders in their prime.

in short: Advisory role, words of wisdom from seasoned, experienced folks - yes, please, any time, thanks! Calling the shots, running the show? definitely no. not good. too much "back focus". (oun intended). :)
I think the power should be left with the old and wise rather than the young, eager and stupid. The problem today is that many of the old in power now used to be young, eager and stupid.
 
Likes: Talys