Is there still hope that we see in-body stabilization in the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III?

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,408
786
Simple physics. A quarter inch copper wire isn't flexible enough.
Thickness/durability or flexibility, can't have both.

Wiring needs to be flexible in order to allow for movement,
and movement introduces embrittlement over time.
Wiring shouldn't be a big problem. Headphones already exist for a long time.
 
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PRINZMETAL

I'm New Here
Feb 5, 2016
14
5
The answer to the question has more to do with Canon camera sales/profits/cash flow than the benefits of any technology. And, how much Canon upper management perceive the future of high end canon camera economic future are going to be and where they feel best to place their investment bets. The question about high end canon camera stabilization as far as canon management is concerned is the investment cost vs added revenue/loss if they add it or don't. And, not what an individual photographer prefers or not. My guess if they had a choice they would rather not spend the R&d right now.
 

Jethro

EOS R
Jul 14, 2018
251
126
They've been spending bulk amounts of money and time on R&D on IBIS for years - look at the flurry of patents that have come out over that time. It is more of an issue of them becoming convinced internally that IBIS is better as opposed to in-lens stabilisation. Or, more likely, the mechanics of using both in tandem. A few years ago, you could make the argument that in-lens stabilisation was superior (at least the way Canon made lenses), but developments have moved on since then. I'm sure that the development of the newer generation of mirrorless bodies has also brought IBIS to the forefront.
 

GoldWing

Canon EOS 1DXMKII
Oct 19, 2013
105
63
Los Angeles, CA
en.wikipedia.org
That would be a big plus, as IBIS usally achieves some 5 stops of stabilization, while IS in lenses normally is only good for three to four stops.
Only good???? 4 stops is huge. My 1DXII let's me shoot at 4000 ISO with no noise.Combine that with my 2.8 or 4.0 big whites and my "shutter speeds" freeze all the action. I guess if you like shooting at lower shutter speeds just know it won't freeze action even with 7 stops ;)
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
Likely a misunderstanding - rotate a lens and the image will remain the same.
Horizon will not be leveled.

I think it is the distinction between tilt and shift. Tilt rotates the camera/lens around an axis perpendicular to the lens' optical axis (not around the lens' optical axis), shift is a non-rotational movement along the plane of the sensor.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
Good shot! But on the technical side, 200mm and crop sensor = 320mm FF equivalent which is even more sensitive. 1/800s at 320mm is basically the same as 1/500s at 200mm, so in fact you're kinda proving the point that 1/500s is enough at 200mm :)

In terms of the blur, all what matters is the angular speed. Say a 100m sprinter does roughly 10m a second, shooting at 1/500s from the side when he's moving perpendicularly to your line of sight, he'll pass 2cm in 1/500s, so it's a bit too much. But even 1/2000s won't be enough (he'll make 0.5cm in 1/2000s).

However if you shoot say at 1/500s and 15 degrees along his movement direction, 2cm turn into 2 * sin( 15 degrees ) = 0.51 cm, as if you were shooting at 1/2000s in the first example. So changing the angle from 90 to 15 degrees is like adding 2 stops of freedom.

Anyway, whatever the speed is, panning helps compensate that, but a good IS will help you with panning. Panning handheld without IS isn't that efficient.
There are two ways of looking at that. It is true that the image is cropped, but if I were standing closer (it's about half as far from the sideline where I would normally have been to where he was on the field than it was from where I was standing), then I would have had to zoom out a bit to make the athlete the same size in the image, because he would have been a larger angular size from the shorter distance, and thus the same amount of movement would have been more blurry than from further away. Measuring it on google earth the sideline is roughly halfway between where I was standing when I took this shot and the near hash marks near where he was running. The field has been replaced with an artificial rug since I took that shot, but I do not think any of the field lines moved much, if any. The stands were not altered at all.

The red dot on the field is the runner, the green dot is where I was standing, the yellow line is where we're allowed to be on the sideline.
20191129ss1.png
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
Anyway, whatever the speed is, panning helps compensate that, but a good IS will help you with panning. Panning handheld without IS isn't that efficient.
I do not honestly remember if IS was turned off or on when I took this. I usually have it turned off when shooting the field from the sideline, but will turn it on when shooting people in the much darker stands that require slower Tv. I had already changed my Tv back to the "field" setting as I walked back down toward the ramp to the field (if I had even used the"long" body while in the stands - most of the work I do there is with my "wide" FF body plus either 17-40mm, 24-70mm, or 24-105mm lenses). I've been working on my panning technique for about 35 years or so... and the monopod certainly helps. Again, I do not remember if I had the leg of the monopod extended enough to use it or if it was still shortened as I often have it when walking through the crowd. By the time I get to the end of the stands where the ramp is, there are very few folks and I'll often go ahead and start setting things back the way I plan to use them down on the sideline as I'm walking once I'm past the 25-30 yard line where the crowd thins out.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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543
No offense, but that seems impossible if you talk about consumer devices. In the case of DSLR in particular, Canon even goes so far as to publish the number that the shutter mechanism is designed to life up to. The mirror assembly or buttons don't have such numbers publicly available I believe, nonetheless there will be a target life time that was set by Canon for these parts to match the desired compromise of cost and adding value to the customer.

If everything were build to last almost to infinity, we would have to carry larger, heavier gear and pay more for it. If Canon is able to design an IBIS system that performs well enough to increase the number of sales enough to offset the development and construction cost and they can dimension the hardware so that it lasts longer than a certain threshold that is set by the market, they will put it in a 1DX III body. Otherwise they won't. I don't feel like there's any need to fear some new features for the 1DX III. And maybe there won't be any. Some people will be upset either way, unfortunately.

If a Canon camera goes in for a second shutter replacement (following a first shutter replacement that replaced the original shutter), Canon will not do the second shutter replacement unless the owner also authorizes a mirror box replacement. So my guess is that Canon rates the entire mirror box assembly at about twice the life of the shutter assembly.

It was not that unusual for heavily used early 1-Series digital bodies to get a shutter replaced around 250-300K frames and need another at around 500-600K back when many press organizations only upgraded on an "odd" or "even" cycle of every other update. The 1D Mark II and 1Ds Mark II had 200K shutter ratings, the 1D Mark III, 1D Mark IV, and 1Ds Mark III had 300K shutter ratings. Film bodies were usually used for much longer time periods, but didn't typically have near as many frames put on them over that longer time period as what digital bodies tend to rack up in press use. Remember, many PJs back in the day had multiple bodies for each speed/type of film they shot...
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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Wiring shouldn't be a big problem. Headphones already exist for a long time.
Yeah, and how often do the wires in headphones oscillate back and forth over several millimeters of distance at several thousands of cycles per second? The wires in headphones are usually attached to the non-moving parts (the linear equivalent of stators) of the voice coil or armature, not the moving parts.
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
489
496
If the inherent disadvantages weren't so clearly known, I would agree.
But if Canon do not feel as though they can overcome those inherent disadvantages then I doubt they would put the feature into a 1d series body. So my guess is that it either won't go in or if it does it will be the best and most reliable IBIS ever made
 

raptor3x

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 26, 2012
557
48
State College, PA
whumber.com
Imager heat is the natural enemy of IBIS.
Most IBIS system have the back of the sensor resting on surface bearings although I think some of the older cameras use a low friction plate behind the sensor. There's not a huge difference in heat conduction away from the sensor for IBIS vs non-IBIS systems.



Thickness/durability or flexibility, can't have both.
The flex connector used are quite durable. As long as the strain, which is directly related to the bend radius of the flex connector, is kept under the endurance limit of the materials this is a non-issue. If high-cycle fatigue failures where a problem with IBIS systems we certainly would have seen many examples of this by now. Even specifically searching I can't find even a single anecdotal reference to such a failure.
 

Quackator

EOS RP
Jul 19, 2011
244
52
There's not a huge difference in heat conduction away from the sensor for IBIS vs non-IBIS systems.
Enough to make the Sony's with their relatively low data rate
stop recording because of overheating on a regular basis.

No overheating known from 1D-X MkII bodies.

Look at the active cooling in XC15, BMPCC and RED cameras.
They don't even have IBIS and still struggle to keep those chips
down at acceptable temperatures.

Remember: People are asking for more resolution, higher
frame rates, lower rolling shutter effects. Three things
immediately connected to the generation of heat.

There is a reason why Canon has filed patents connected
to sensor cooling efforts. This is one of the biggest problems,
and IBIS makes it even bigger. You can't fly a sensor with
heatpipes attached.

If high-cycle fatigue failures where a problem with IBIS systems we certainly would
have seen many examples of this by now. Even specifically searching I can't find
even a single anecdotal reference to such a failure.
The question is: Will the camera report sensor wiring embrittlement,
or will it report any other unspecific error message, or will the camera
just play dead? And will Sony or Olympus tell camera owners that IBIS
killed their camera, dragging that as a potential point of failure into the
public eye?
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,408
786
Yeah, and how often do the wires in headphones oscillate back and forth over several millimeters of distance at several thousands of cycles per second?
That's how headphones produce sound.

Anyway, one does not need "several thousands of cycles per second" for IBIS.

The wires in headphones are usually attached to the non-moving parts (the linear equivalent of stators) of the voice coil or armature, not the moving parts.
The voice coil is usually connected to the diaphragm. The magnet, being much heavier, is the stator.
 

raptor3x

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 26, 2012
557
48
State College, PA
whumber.com
Enough to make the Sony's with their relatively low data rate
stop recording because of overheating on a regular basis.
When the A6500 was released, it actually had less issues with overheating than the A6300 while shooting 4K, not more as you would expect if IBIS was a significant limitation on heat transfer.

No overheating known from 1D-X MkII bodies.
Much larger body and probably a better overall thermal design. Look at the Panasonic GH5, that has IBIS and can record unlimited 4K60 video.

There is a reason why Canon has filed patents connected
to sensor cooling efforts. This is one of the biggest problems,
and IBIS makes it even bigger. You can't fly a sensor with
heatpipes attached.
You know that the sensor isn't actually floating in an IBIS system, right? People tend to get confused when some of the companies use marketing language like "magnetically levitated" but the sensor is actually always in contact with a set of surface bearings against the back of the sensor.


The question is: Will the camera report sensor wiring embrittlement,
or will it report any other unspecific error message, or will the camera
just play dead? And will Sony or Olympus tell camera owners that IBIS
killed their camera, dragging that as a potential point of failure into the
public eye?
Unlikely, the but if high cycle fatigue was an issue we would see older cameras with IBIS failure at a pretty consistent rate. Like I said before, if the flex connector is designed such that the maximum stress seen is below the endurance limit than fatigue failure will never occur.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
4,155
1,718
Irving, Texas
The whole "IBIS causes overheating" and "wire embrittlement" thing is way overblown. Flex circuits have been produced and used for many years in safety critical applications. IBIS has also been around for many years. I don't really have a dog in this fight as I don't care whether the cameras get IBIS or not. However, making up and blaming problems on a particular feature with zero substantiation becomes a circular argument that makes zero sense and starts to feel like somebody wants to be right no matter what the evidence, or lack of it, shows.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
That's how headphones produce sound.

Anyway, one does not need "several thousands of cycles per second" for IBIS.


The voice coil is usually connected to the diaphragm. The magnet, being much heavier, is the stator.
Headphones oscillate at distances of "fractions" of millimeters, not "several millimeters".
 
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