It’s been a while, but an APS-C equipped EOS R body gets another mention [CR2]

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,455
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What options does Canon have with the 7D line?

1. Drop the 7D line altogether.

2. Replace it with an EOS-M camera.

3. Replace it with an EOS-R camera.

Considering the 7D's positioning, I think #3 is the most likely, and hence expect Canon to release an EOS-R crop camera.

Then again, the 1DX mk II can sample 4K from the center at 60fps, so a crazy idea might be a 50MP studio camera that can sample the center 20MP at 16fps, and thus double as a crop-sports camera. The image on the EVF is resampled & corrected anyway, e.g. as done for the RF 24-240mm, so it could be filled completely from either resolution.

I'll go one more:

4. The 90D (or next XXD if there is one) becomes the de facto 7D3.

The 90D already has [32.5 x 10] + [on-chip sensor] + [27 f/8 AF points] + [tilty-flippy] right now, and a good deal of the 7D2 masses would give their left nut for just that in a bulletproof 7D body. I know 7D2 folks want higher fps and better low light, but the 90D is no slouch and it (in some ways) feels like a 7D2 upgrade already.

- A
 
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slclick

Cyclist, photog, drummer & sardonic haiku writer
Dec 17, 2013
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4. The 90D (or next XXD if there is one) becomes the de facto 7D3.

The 90D already has [32.5 x 10] + [on-chip sensor] + [27 f/8 AF points] + [tilty-flippy] right now, and a good deal of the 7D2 masses would give their left nut for just that in a bulletproof 7D body. I know 7D2 folks want higher fps and better low light, but the 90D is no slouch and it (in some ways) feels like a 7D2 upgrade already.

- A
[/QUOTE]
Doesn't the 90D have the same fps as the 7D Mk ii? It really out specs it on all fronts except buffer, build and ergonomics/button layout.

I'd like to hear from shooters who had extensive 7D2 experience and then made a lateral move to the 90D and could tell us about the AF speed and accuracy, the buffer difference and keeper rate.
 
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IcyBergs

I have a Sony...TV
May 31, 2016
111
224
It only forces an upgrade if you eventually move up to an FF sensor and want to use all of it. Adapting EF-S on RF today automatically just takes a crop image, right? So moving up to a full FF sensor with an 'RF-S' lens would absolutely still work, which is better than EF-S on EF today.

So yes, crop-only lenses on RF could be a problematic move for Canon in some specifics, but they are not impossible.

- A
No disagreement on whether or not it's possible, very much is and would be more seamless for the consumer. To me that's the part that doesn't necessarily make too much sense. Despite the fact that many upgrade their glass prior to moving to a larger format sensor if compatible mount/adapter is available, I just have a very hard time thinking that Canon would not maximize potential profit when a consumer makes the upgrade to FF by necessitating lens upgrades for that transition.
 
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gruhl28

Canon 70D
Jul 26, 2013
83
14
The source supposedly said there would be an APS-C equipped R, but there would not be any RF-S lenses. That doesn't seem to make sense, it would mean there would be no ability to take wide angle shots. Unless, as someone suggested, it had a built-in focal reducer, but where would that fit? Not much space in the flange to add a focal reducer. Would people actually buy a camera with which it was impossible to shoot wide angle? I guess the Canon 10D did sell for a while, but times have changed. I guess it might be useful for birders or others needing maximum reach, but I'm skeptical.
 
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slclick

Cyclist, photog, drummer & sardonic haiku writer
Dec 17, 2013
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4. The 90D (or next XXD if there is one) becomes the de facto 7D3.

The 90D already has [32.5 x 10] + [on-chip sensor] + [27 f/8 AF points] + [tilty-flippy] right now, and a good deal of the 7D2 masses would give their left nut for just that in a bulletproof 7D body. I know 7D2 folks want higher fps and better low light, but the 90D is no slouch and it (in some ways) feels like a 7D2 upgrade already.

- A
Doesn't the 90D have the same fps as the 7D Mk ii? It really out specs it on all fronts except buffer, build and ergonomics/button layout.

I'd like to hear from shooters who had extensive 7D2 experience and then made a lateral move to the 90D and could tell us about the AF speed and accuracy, the buffer difference and keeper rate.
[/QUOTE]


There is this from Glenn...

 

bitcars

5D mark II
Apr 24, 2019
32
50
Then again, the 1DX mk II can sample 4K from the center at 60fps, so a crazy idea might be a 50MP studio camera that can sample the center 20MP at 16fps, and thus double as a crop-sports camera. The image on the EVF is resampled & corrected anyway, e.g. as done for the RF 24-240mm, so it could be filled completely from either resolution.
I had a thought like this awhile ago. For example the next EOS Rs high res camera could switch into a on-the-fly crop mode that transforms it into a mirrorless 7D III.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,455
1,282
No disagreement on whether or not it's possible, very much is and would be more seamless for the consumer. To me that's the part that doesn't necessarily make too much sense. Despite the fact that many upgrade their glass prior to moving to a larger format sensor if compatible mount/adapter is available, I just have a very hard time thinking that Canon would not maximize potential profit when a consumer makes the upgrade to FF by necessitating lens upgrades for that transition.

That's the thing. If I very casually define their revenue as:

[Number of folks who bite the bullet and move up from RF Crop to RF FF] X [the number of FF lenses they buy after that]

vs.

[Number of folks who bite the bullet and move up from EF-M to RF FF*] X [the number of FF lenses they buy after that]
*If they didn't do this RF Crop idea

Surely green is bigger than blue and more profit is to be had with lenses if you mandate buying them. But also surely there are more red than purple -- more people will stay in the Canon ecosystem and move up to FF -- because they can keep using their crop lenses.

Only Canon knows for sure what the true best ROI would be.

- A
 
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ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
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I had a thought like this awhile ago. For example the next EOS Rs high res camera could switch into a on-the-fly crop mode that transforms it into a mirrorless 7D III.

That would be a high res FF sensor with a high fps shutter and a ton of data throughput.

That would not be a 7D-priced $1500ish camera.

So yes, Canon could do it, but it would not be the solution for 7 series users.

- A
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,369
629
The source supposedly said there would be an APS-C equipped R, but there would not be any RF-S lenses. That doesn't seem to make sense, it would mean there would be no ability to take wide angle shots. Unless, as someone suggested, it had a built-in focal reducer, but where would that fit? Not much space in the flange to add a focal reducer. Would people actually buy a camera with which it was impossible to shoot wide angle? I guess the Canon 10D did sell for a while, but times have changed. I guess it might be useful for birders or others needing maximum reach, but I'm skeptical.
EF-S lenses like the 10-18 or 10-22 could be adapted to RF and get you down to 16mm FF equivalent.
 

slclick

Cyclist, photog, drummer & sardonic haiku writer
Dec 17, 2013
4,014
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That would be a high res FF sensor with a high fps shutter and a ton of data throughput.

That would not be a 7D-priced $1500ish camera.

So yes, Canon could do it, but it would not be the solution for 7 series users.

- A
I'm glad you mentioned the 7D cost, it's a point which most R7 hopefuls have forgotten. It almost gets to the point where people start shouting crippling and want the 1DX feature in a XXD body price kind of thing. This is 5D level pricing for that kind of tech, folks.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,455
1,282
I'm glad you mentioned the 7D cost, it's a point which most R7 hopefuls have forgotten. It almost gets to the point where people start shouting crippling and want the 1DX feature in a XXD body price kind of thing. This is 5D level pricing for that kind of tech, folks.

Not only that, but you'd be paying a mint for a big sensor and shutter... and you wouldn't really need it if you were always shooting in crop.

'Please give me the Ferrari but since I'm only using it in first and second gear you will give it to me for $50k'

I hope 7D2 folks get the next camera they want -- I do -- but landgrabbing both the meat and potatoes of high throughput and high FF detail seems a bit unreasonable.

- A
 
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Jan 24, 2020
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I really hope they don't make a crop sensor RF mount camera, the EF-M mount is designed to be small and takes advantage of the benefits of a smaller sensor, the separation between mounts makes sense, having two crop sensor mirrorless systems makes no sense at all, keep RF full frame only
 
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Cat_Interceptor

M6 II fanboy
Oct 20, 2019
65
97
alliancemotorsport.org
I'll go one more:

4. The 90D (or next XXD if there is one) becomes the de facto 7D3.

The 90D already has [32.5 x 10] + [on-chip sensor] + [27 f/8 AF points] + [tilty-flippy] right now, and a good deal of the 7D2 masses would give their left nut for just that in a bulletproof 7D body. I know 7D2 folks want higher fps and better low light, but the 90D is no slouch and it (in some ways) feels like a 7D2 upgrade already.

- A
Current 7D II owner, 90D tried, bought M6 II instead

The guts of a M6 II with improved AF points, AF cases, in a 7D II body and dual card slots. The M6 II does things the 90D cant (30fps burst mode is a good example) so there's your base to work with. Now given the 7D II also had basically 1D style speed and options of AF there's a good argument that a theoretical R7 gets a lot a 1D mk III AF too. I dont know much about video and I dont care so someone else can make up a wish list.

Given the 7D line had users who bought big whites, have a 100-400 RF availible at launch and you got yourself a winner.
 

gruhl28

Canon 70D
Jul 26, 2013
83
14
EF-S lenses like the 10-18 or 10-22 could be adapted to RF and get you down to 16mm FF equivalent.
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. And I guess third parties could make "RF-S" lenses. Still seems a bit odd, though, an R camera that can't do wide angle with native R lenses.
 

Travel_Photographer

Travel, Landscape, Architecture
Aug 30, 2019
94
126
I really hope they don't make a crop sensor RF mount camera, the EF-M mount is designed to be small and takes advantage of the benefits of a smaller sensor, the separation between mounts makes sense, having two crop sensor mirrorless systems makes no sense at all, keep RF full frame only
I generally tend to agree.

Having a:

* EF mount full-frame mirrored line (in at least two segments (1D and 5D, plus the desired 7DIII)
* EF mount APS-C mirrored line (in two segments, 90D and Rebel series)
* R mount full-frame mirrorless line
* R mount APS-C mirrorless line
* EF-M mount APS-C mirrorless line

Well, seems like a lot of lines. I'm all for the more options the better, but at some point, there has to be too much. If they added R-mount APS-C, something else would have to get consolidated.
 
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BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,369
629
Current 7D II owner, 90D tried, bought M6 II instead

The guts of a M6 II with improved AF points, AF cases, in a 7D II body and dual card slots. The M6 II does things the 90D cant (30fps burst mode is a good example) so there's your base to work with. Now given the 7D II also had basically 1D style speed and options of AF there's a good argument that a theoretical R7 gets a lot a 1D mk III AF too. I dont know much about video and I dont care so someone else can make up a wish list.

Given the 7D line had users who bought big whites, have a 100-400 RF availible at launch and you got yourself a winner.
An R7 mirrorless won't be able to use the 1D Mark III AF, except maybe for the Liveview part.
 

Dragon

EF 800L
May 29, 2019
181
150
Kind of interesting reading through all the comments. What most are missing is that there is almost zero overlap between a 7D and an M camera. The M line is small and light with small and light lenses with the consequence that there are no really long M lenses and only a few fast ones (in FLs that can be both small and fast). The 7D on the other hand is a BIG camera. It is big for a reason. EF-s lenses are rarely used on a 7D body. Alternatively, the 7D series tends to be used for sports and wildlife with BIG long lenses or BIG fast lenses. The idea that a tiny R body somehow is a replacement for a 7D overlooks that fact that tiny bodies are not convenient to use with big lenses (try shooting for an afternoon with an M6 with an EF 100-400 attached). The other bit that is overlooked is the basic requirement for a FAST EVF. The cost of a fast EVF is not in the EVF, it is in the sensor. To have a fast EVF, you need a very fast readout sensor. Once you have done that, and then made the camera big enough to balance big lenses, and also made it 7D rugged, the difference in cost between an APS and a FF sensor is mostly irrelevant. With that in mind, I am more inclined to think you will see a fast cropped readout on a FF R than a crop frame R body. The 5DS/r already has this feature and it works just fine, but needs the ability to save a cropped raw file to get the speed up. There is no rocket science in such an approach, just implementation detail. I suspect we will see this feature on the RS when it is released.
 

addola

Sold my soul for a flippy screen
Nov 16, 2015
97
61
What would an RF mount, APS-C camera mean for the future of the EF-M mount given that Canon just recently released the M6 Mark II? We also saw some patents for IBIS in EF-M cameras, which could mean Canon may still have some R&D in the EF-M mount.

Canon may introduce this for those who want an extra reach, or video shooters that could use a speedbooster with EF lenses given that it's expected not to be an entry-level camera, so maybe some good video features & fps buffer?

However, this could mean the end of the EF-M, as it would lose its size advantage. Even if Canon never released smaller APS-C RF-lenses for it, nothing would stop 3rd party manufacturers like Samyang, Sigma or Tamron from making APS-C lenses for the RF-mount. We already have Samyang/Rokinon AF lenses for the RF-mount cameras, so they already have know how to communicate with the RF cameras.