It’s been a while, but an APS-C equipped EOS R body gets another mention [CR2]

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,301
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I generally tend to agree.

Having a:

* EF mount full-frame mirrored line (in at least two segments (1D and 5D, plus the desired 7DIII)
* EF mount APS-C mirrored line (in two segments, 90D and Rebel series)
* R mount full-frame mirrorless line
* R mount APS-C mirrorless line
* EF-M mount APS-C mirrorless line

Well, seems like a lot of lines. I'm all for the more options the better, but at some point, there has to be too much. If they added R-mount APS-C, something else would have to get consolidated.
If there is an R mount aps-c camera, it might be a little grandiose to call it a line. I think it would likely be a niche camera mostly to get some more reach on long lenses without spending more for longer lenses and bigger camera sensors and processors.
 

Hector1970

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 22, 2012
1,127
318
I think there is a market in sport and wildlife for cropped sensor high FPS mirrorless camera. One that trickles down some of the 1DX III mirror up abilities. It would be sub 1DXIII performance but could easily be 12-14 FPS. I’d certainly consider one. My 7DII will break down someday (in fairness it’s a very robust camera, I’ve hammered mine but it keeps going). A robust mirrorless would be a suitable replacement. As big a battery as possible would be good.
 
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Travel_Photographer

Travel, Landscape, Architecture
Aug 30, 2019
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If there is an R mount aps-c camera, it might be a little grandiose to call it a line. I think it would likely be a niche camera mostly to get some more reach on long lenses without spending more for longer lenses and bigger camera sensors and processors.
It would be under the assumption they would create "RF-S" lenses for it, that I would call it a line. I guess they could do what you suggest and just expect people to use EF / RF glass at 1.6x crop, or adapted EF-S, but I wasn't thinking they'd go in that direction.
 
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Dragon

EF 800L
May 29, 2019
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It would be under the assumption they would create "RF-S" lenses for it, that I would call it a line. I guess they could do what you suggest and just expect people to use EF / RF glass at 1.6x crop, or adapted EF-S, but I wasn't thinking they'd go in that direction.
No point in created RF-S lenses for a 7D equivalent R camera since EF-s lenses are rarely used on 7D. 7Ds are about speed and reach, neither of which are accommodated by EF-s lenses.
 

Travel_Photographer

Travel, Landscape, Architecture
Aug 30, 2019
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No point in created RF-S lenses for a 7D equivalent R camera since EF-s lenses are rarely used on 7D. 7Ds are about speed and reach, neither of which are accommodated by EF-s lenses.
Agreed. I wasn't referring to a 7D equivalent, but rather the concept of an APS-C RF mount in general.

If current EVF technology is considered "inadequate" for fast-moving wildlife, sports, BiF, etc., then I would expect this new rumored APS-C RF mount would not be meant as a mirrorless equivalent for the 7D.
 
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The source supposedly said there would be an APS-C equipped R, but there would not be any RF-S lenses. That doesn't seem to make sense, it would mean there would be no ability to take wide angle shots. Unless, as someone suggested, it had a built-in focal reducer, but where would that fit? Not much space in the flange to add a focal reducer. Would people actually buy a camera with which it was impossible to shoot wide angle? I guess the Canon 10D did sell for a while, but times have changed. I guess it might be useful for birders or others needing maximum reach, but I'm skeptical.
How will it be impossible to shoot wide angle? Two articles before this one is a patent for an RF 17-70, there's already a 15-35L, there is an RF-EF adapter to allow using the EF-S lenses, and there are already third party options coming out. There's far from zero options. The fact that current RF lens development is for full frame doesn't preclude it from use on an APS-C sensor camera as long as it has the RF mount.

On the other hand, I submit that, without an APS-C option, the RF mount - no matter how spectacular - is a dead-end proposition. Canon will never, and I do mean never, recoup the R&D investment into the R series camera and lenses by just selling cameras to enthusiasts. Compare sales of the Rebel line, for instance, to those of the 5D, and tell me which one is doing a better fiscal job of driving Canon's EF market. At some point, the RF mount is going to have to reach the mass market. And when that inevitably happens, there will be some who want the additional benefit of a crop sensor for telephoto shooting. I am one of those people. A camera is a tool, nothing more. And I would like the right tool for the job.

And right now, my only options are EF glass. The RF glass is pretty darned spectacular, but much like the EF-M lenses for my Canon M50, anything RF that I'd buy is a white elephant that can only be used on an RF mount camera. Which right now means only full frame. That's all fine and dandy, but let's consider that I decided to buy an EOS R or its ilk sometime soon (like I have been thinking about.) I have also been considering a telephoto lens, and have rented Canon's 100-400L II lens with spectacular results. I am enticed by the potential of the expected RF 70-400L. But why would I buy one when I couldn't use it with my APS-C camera? RIght now, buying an RF lens is intentionally limiting the usefulness of that lens. It's not an end of the world problem, but I am a LOT more likely to buy EF lenses that can be mounted on either my M50 or the R that I would buy. And that means that I would be , in effect, carrying elements of three different camera systems - EF-M, RF, and EF - rather than one. An APS-C sensor RF mount camera in my bag makes the decision to spend money on RF glass a lot easier to make.

Just my $0.02, cash value slightly lower.

Jody
 
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slclick

135L
Dec 17, 2013
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Good point, I hadn't thought of that. And I guess third parties could make "RF-S" lenses. Still seems a bit odd, though, an R camera that can't do wide angle with native R lenses.
Not sure why unless you don't consider 16mm FF equivalent wide. It's plenty wide for many.
 
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flip314

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2018
266
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No point in created RF-S lenses for a 7D equivalent R camera since EF-s lenses are rarely used on 7D. 7Ds are about speed and reach, neither of which are accommodated by EF-s lenses.
I've heard the 17-55 f2.8 EF-s is popular for 7D users... Then again, I guess it's not like anyone else is buying that lens, so maybe it's only relative popularity
 
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ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
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I generally tend to agree.

Having a:

* EF mount full-frame mirrored line (in at least two segments (1D and 5D, plus the desired 7DIII)
* EF mount APS-C mirrored line (in two segments, 90D and Rebel series)
* R mount full-frame mirrorless line
* R mount APS-C mirrorless line
* EF-M mount APS-C mirrorless line

Well, seems like a lot of lines. I'm all for the more options the better, but at some point, there has to be too much. If they added R-mount APS-C, something else would have to get consolidated.

If R-mount APS-C happens and no crop-only lenses are made, one might read that it's a unique olive branch to the 7D crowd. Consolidation may not be as pressing a need -- in effect, the 7D would stay crop but jump over to the RF mount and become mirrorless. It's not really a new line the business will need to make new glass for or update the body design often.

But if RF mount APS-C happens and they are making new RF crop-only lenses, EF-M is a dead man walking.

That said, I wouldn't worry too much about consolidation. Mirrorless (in general) will drive that far more than a novel new RF + crop mount.

One would think that in (let's say) 5 years, we will either have:
  • SLR (of any kind): New offerings in 1-series only
  • EF-M + Crop Mirrorless
  • RF + FF Mirrorless
Or:
  • SLR (of any kind): New offerings in 1-series only
  • RF + Crop Mirrorless
  • RF + FF Mirrorless
That's pretty sleek and simple to me.

- A
 

Kit.

EOR R
Apr 25, 2011
1,700
1,048
But also surely there are more red than purple -- more people will stay in the Canon ecosystem and move up to FF -- because they can keep using their crop lenses.
Not necessarily. There might be less people into the RF crop to start with.
 
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ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
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Not necessarily. There might be less people into the RF crop to start with.

Depends on the style/type of crop RF camera they offer, sure. If they make it too big, don't offer a Rebel-like price point, sure -- sales could suffer.

I'm presuming that if Canon is going to be this brave and (effectively) kill off EF-M, they will intelligently design/size/spec the first offering.

- A
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,301
539
I've heard the 17-55 f2.8 EF-s is popular for 7D users... Then again, I guess it's not like anyone else is buying that lens, so maybe it's only relative popularity
The fate of the 17-55 has often seemed to me a pretty good explanation of why we haven't seen a lot of higher end ef-s (and ef-m) glass. I think Canon learned their lesson on that one.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,441
1,266
The fate of the 17-55 has often seemed to me a pretty good explanation of why we haven't seen a lot of higher end ef-s (and ef-m) glass. I think Canon learned their lesson on that one.

Premium spec/price/featured glass has been gone from Canon crop for a very long time:
Number of Canon crop* lenses that launched at $1k or greater = only once (that 17-55 in 2006)​
Last time a Canon crop* lens was launched for more than $750 = 2009 (EF-S 15-85 f/3.5-5.6 IS USM)​
Last time a Canon crop* lens had legit ring USM AF = 2009 (again, the EF-S 15-85 f/3.5-5.6 IS USM)​

That's entirely from my EF-S memory, but I don't think including EF-M in that would change any of those figures. All those lenses sit around $499 or less and none have ever had USM.

- A
 

Graphic.Artifacts

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 1, 2017
535
378
Or they could just release a 7D Mark III. I don’t know how other people feel about shooting wildlife with an EVF but personally I’d rather have an OVF. The EVF is fatiguing, slow to start up, you can’t see through it when the camera is off, lags in continuous shooting, I could go on and on. My XT-3 is a pretty snappy little mirrorless but a 7D/90D could run rings around when shooting wildlife.
 
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slclick

135L
Dec 17, 2013
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Or they could just release a 7D Mark III. I don’t know how other people feel about shooting wildlife with an EVF but personally I’d rather have an OVF. The EVF is fatiguing, slow to start up, you can’t see through it when the camera is off, lags in continuous shooting, I could go on and on. My XT-3 is a pretty snappy little mirrorless but a 7D/90D could run rings around when shooting wildlife.
I truly wish they would . It would both make a lot of people happy and shut a lot of people up. High FPS and possbly good iso over 6400. (yeah, I owned a 7D once upon a time)
 
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canonnews

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 27, 2017
543
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www.canonnews.com
No point in created RF-S lenses for a 7D equivalent R camera since EF-s lenses are rarely used on 7D. 7Ds are about speed and reach, neither of which are accommodated by EF-s lenses.
I used a 7D camera for years. Because it was the natural continuation of the XXD series camera bodies.

I never used it for reach - but used it for studio and also for landscape, because auto-bracketing at very fast frame rates gives you a higher chance of success.

Some people liked the series because it offered dual card slots, a more compact camera than full frame, a fabulous viewfinder and a very durable camera.

and I really doubt I'm alone here.
 

Travel_Photographer

Travel, Landscape, Architecture
Aug 30, 2019
94
126
If R-mount APS-C happens and no crop-only lenses are made, one might read that it's a unique olive branch to the 7D crowd. Consolidation may not be as pressing a need -- in effect, the 7D would stay crop but jump over to the RF mount and become mirrorless. It's not really a new line the business will need to make new glass for or update the body design often.

But if RF mount APS-C happens and they are making new RF crop-only lenses, EF-M is a dead man walking.

That said, I wouldn't worry too much about consolidation. Mirrorless (in general) will drive that far more than a novel new RF + crop mount.

One would think that in (let's say) 5 years, we will either have:
  • SLR (of any kind): New offerings in 1-series only
  • EF-M + Crop Mirrorless
  • RF + FF Mirrorless
Or:
  • SLR (of any kind): New offerings in 1-series only
  • RF + Crop Mirrorless
  • RF + FF Mirrorless
That's pretty sleek and simple to me.

- A
Yep, I agree entirely, and your 5-year-out scenarios are pretty much how I would envision it as well.

Of the two options, I personally would prefer option #1 (with EF-M representing for APS-C) because I love the tiny lenses, and even with a very small R-body, I don't think you'd be able to get EF-M 55-200mm style-size out of that mount. Again though, just my personal preference.