Large Sensor PowerShot? [CR1]

P

polpaulin

Guest
Bob Howland said:
polpaulin said:
macfly said:
Well it's more than just the sensor, the camera has to work, and based on the aweful G12 I've been messing around with I doubt they're on the right path.

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk that I won't buy anything expect the absolute top of the range Canon again. I haven't owned such a useless camera since my very first Fed Zorki lll back in the mid 70's. How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

So, even if they put a bigger better chip in a pocketable camera, there is no guarantee that it'll be any use at all based on the disaster that is the G12!
I bought a G10 and sold it 3 months later
I own a G10 and use it a lot.
well my small daughter use a lot her ixus , the quality is nearly the same, it is a very good camera for familly photo
 
H

hmmm

Guest
Canon T3 APS-C 12.2 MP is now $549.99 at B&H. Take that sensor, put it in a G- type compact body, give it a compact lens that can be smaller and faster because it does not have to clear the mirror. Seems doable for MUCH less than the competition.
 
P

PaulRivers

Guest
Canon would introduce a larger sensor PowerShot for the fall. It will apparently end the perceived love affair the world has with the Fuji X-100.

I’m not sure. Has Canon ever struck you as a company to get into niche markets in the photographic world?
This sounds like *exactly* the kind of thing Canon would do. It's *exactly* like with the lx3.
1. They don't want to introduce a product that might compete against their dslr line
2. They don't want to take a risk on creating a new type of camera
3. But once someone else does and it's successful, they also don't want to risk someone else establishing themselves as the leader in the market

So, they -
1. Wait for a competitor to introduce a product into the market
2. Watch how successful or profitable it is
3. Then introduce their own product with some aspect that's significantly better to compete with it

That's what they did with the lx3. It wouldn't be surprising to see them do exactly the same thing with the xz-1, and just introduce the same kind of camera only with a cost less than $1200.

I think a g12-sized camera with a fixed f2.0 lens, for low light shots, is a lot *less* niche than m43rds - everyone wants a camera that can take indoor lighting photos without a flash, and the best compacts are only on the edge of being able to do it, and then they still have noticeable noise. Canon doesn't want to compete against their own dslr's, but once someone else is doing it's not "is this going to slow down dslr sales" as much as it is "is someone else going to establish themselves as the premium manufacturer in this market and we'll lose out?".

P.S. I think the x100 is ugly as hell.
P.P.S. Neither the NEX or m43rds have "sold so well". The m43rds crowd seems to feel that if they repeat wishful thinking enough it will magically come true. One can just look at amazon's list of top selling cameras (I'm in the US so I'm looking at the US stuff) -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/photo

#1 is a cheap Canon compact. #2 is a flip hd video camera. #3 is a Canon t3i. #4 is a Canon sx210. #5 is the Canon s95. #6 is a Canon 300hs (actually, Canon usually has several of the top spots but not usually all of them - they probably have some promo going). I've periodically checked it for the last 6 months or so, and as long as the s95 is actually available at or below retail price it's always in the top 20. There's always also a few Canon dslr's in that list as well, Canon or Nikon.

The lx5 is all the way up to #25. Several Sony compacts in the list. The x100 is #44, despite being "temporarily out of stock". #72 is a "Fujifilm INSTAX 210 Instant Photo Camera Kit with 5 Twin Pack of INSTAX Film" - yes, with film! lol...

But in the entire top 100 list, I can't even *find* the Sony NEX or a m43rds camera. *That's* how well they're selling.

I have occasionally seen them make their way into the top 100 - but never into the top 20. The x100 is a lot less "niche" than m43rds or a nex.
 

Caps18

EOS RP
Feb 24, 2011
286
0
I am looking for a small p&s that has a fixed 24mm pancake lens or built-in, but will accept an adapter to allow EF zoom lenses, Image Stabilization, and autofocus to work.

That way, I can bring the 24mm or 35mm p&s with me on bike rides and evenings out. Yet, I can still carry a few good lenses when I travel to get better shots and don't want to carry around the 5D m2 (or when venues won't let me bring in my 'professional' camera... :mad: )

It would have a few benefits over the iPhone, but the iPhone would take acceptable pictures in a lot of situations as well... but it wouldn't have the zoom (420mm-840mm).
 

adamdoesmovies

EOS T7i
Feb 22, 2011
55
0
Flake said:
today pentax launched a new evil camera http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=4774

Another player in the market.

As for this type of camera being too expensive maybe a straight point & shoot, which I can't envisage being launched, but the evil type cameras are at least as pricey as the 600D if not more so, and they're selling well despite that.

I think pretty much everyone agrees that this camera wouldn't suck, and would probably succeed if it didn't have a webcam-sized (exaggerating but only a little!) sensor!
 

Hillsilly

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 16, 2010
1,096
0
The Amazon list linked to by PaulRivers makes interesting reading, but I'm not sure how relevent it its. The list shows that Canon P&S cameras are top sellers and Canon DSLRs are also top sellers. And with the T3i at number 5, it also shows that a very high number of people are happy to pay a little bit more for a better all round camera.

But, what it doesn't show is how many people (if given the choice) would buy a more compact, mirrorless version of the T3i with EF (and FD!) compatability and a range of smaller lenses vs the T3i itself.

My gut feeling is that it would be quite a high percentage. After all, the sheer number of P & S styled bodies in the top 100 suggests that this is a preferred camera shape for a lot of people.

The lack of NEX and m4/3 bodies in the top 100 probably says more about people not wanting to buy into those systems. To buy into m4/3 is probably a conscious decision people take after weighing up a lot of factors. I don't think its the sort of thing that consumers would do on the spur of the moment.

But I think a Canon option is an entirely different proposition. You have the brand recognition, you have the vast number of people already owning and happy with Canon cameras, you have upgrade options, you have access to a vast range of lenses. Why wouldn't you buy one? And if Canon can price them similar to the competitors ($400 - $600), you'd be silly not to buy one.

I'm not advocating a radically different camera, just a thinner, restyled T3i with an electronic viewfinder.

You'd also need a new lens mount and a 15mm, 30mm and 60mm pancake lens (assuming 1.6x crop). Maybe keep the 18-55 EFS with adapter as the kit lens.
 

bycostello

EOS 6D MK II
Jun 23, 2011
904
0
London
www.bycostello.com
4/3 will replace the slr market... you just don't need a mirror with modern elctronics... so why do i need to carry a brick with me... weddings, ok i will... but for my personal stuff no... the gf3 first camera to come out with a decent shutter lag, or rather lack of it.... if canon don't announce soon will be going for one of them....
 

Rocky

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 30, 2010
906
23
ronderick said:
Now, if we're talking about the 5D2 FF sensor inside a Canon P or 7 body with Leica M-mount... ;D
That will be my dream camera. I have a few Lieca lenses waiting for it. The M9 is too expensive for me due to shift of priority.
 

Rocky

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 30, 2010
906
23
macfly said:
Well it's more than just the sensor, the camera has to work, and based on the aweful G12 I've been messing around with I doubt they're on the right path.

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk that I won't buy anything expect the absolute top of the range Canon again. I haven't owned such a useless camera since my very first Fed Zorki lll back in the mid 70's. How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

So, even if they put a bigger better chip in a pocketable camera, there is no guarantee that it'll be any use at all based on the disaster that is the G12!
Sorry to hear that. I hate to tell you that the G12 or any point and shoot is not suitable for action or sport photography. To shoot Formular One Grand Prix, You definitely need a Good DSLR with fast auto focus.
 

bycostello

EOS 6D MK II
Jun 23, 2011
904
0
London
www.bycostello.com
Rocky said:
macfly said:
Well it's more than just the sensor, the camera has to work, and based on the aweful G12 I've been messing around with I doubt they're on the right path.

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk that I won't buy anything expect the absolute top of the range Canon again. I haven't owned such a useless camera since my very first Fed Zorki lll back in the mid 70's. How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

So, even if they put a bigger better chip in a pocketable camera, there is no guarantee that it'll be any use at all based on the disaster that is the G12!
Sorry to hear that. I hate to tell you that the G12 or any point and shoot is not suitable for action or sport photography. To shoot Formular One Grand Prix, You definitely need a Good DSLR with fast auto focus.

yeah that was user error i'm affraid, you got to know what your camera can do... no compact (well except the GF3) has a fast shutter lag that can freeze sports.. you would need to use manual focus to stand a chance to capture such fast sports.. or as the other guy said, use an SLR...
 

gmrza

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 21, 2011
521
1
macfly said:
Well it's more than just the sensor, the camera has to work, and based on the aweful G12 I've been messing around with I doubt they're on the right path.

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk that I won't buy anything expect the absolute top of the range Canon again. I haven't owned such a useless camera since my very first Fed Zorki lll back in the mid 70's. How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

So, even if they put a bigger better chip in a pocketable camera, there is no guarantee that it'll be any use at all based on the disaster that is the G12!
I understand your feelings, and see that you believe very strongly that the G12 is a piece of junk.

I own a G11. Let us work on the basis that the G11 is functionally almost equivalent to the G12. Actually, it lacks a few features that the G12 has, so it must be a worse piece of junk.

In that light, I would like to present the exhibits below, which prove what a piece of junk the G11 is.





My cousins' bulls were so offended by the lousy G11 that they threw anyone who tried to get onto their backs!

This last one is not a sports shot, but is further proof of just what a lousy camera the G11 is.



#sarcasm off

Seriously, my wife got much better shots of the bulls with the 5DmkII (oh sorry, that is also a lousy camera for sports).
I would not take a Powershot to shoot sports professionally, or to shoot professional studio portraits, or to shoot a wedding.
On the other hand, when you understand its limitations, a camera like the Powershot G11 or G12 can produce amazing results.
That said, I would probably never take a 5DmkII with on my bike as it would not fit in my backpack with my notebook and clothes.

When I want a camera that I can just pocket, without having to cart an entire backpack with me, the G11 gets my vote. Yes,
it has shortcomings, but every camera on the face of this earth is a compromise.

It's all about horses for courses.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,182
1,455
macfly said:
The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk...How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!
Well, as we all know, the best craftsmen and artists blame their tools for a poor result. Oh wait, that's wrong, isn't it?

Thanks for the photoset, gmrza - nice demo of what a tool like the G11 can do in the right hands.
 
M

macfly

Guest
gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

The images that came out might be nice, but they aren't the images that you thought you were taking when you pressed the button, because what you were looking at and trying to record happened half a second or more before these. In the first image you probrably wanted to freeze the horse mid air as it was jumping and in second you probrably wanted the guy who'se been thrown from the bull in mid air too. Oh well, thats a G for you.

I don't mean to call you a liar on a public forum, but I know that no G will capture a moving object with anything approaching precision predicability.

neuroanatomist, I do this for a living, but sometimes don't want to take my work gear to an event like the F1 GP when I'm just going to hang out with friends. There is an extensive set of images of car, boats and planes racing in the SPEED section of my website, and I have covered a lot of racing events for many magazines. www.macfly.com
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,182
1,455
macfly said:
I know that no G will capture a moving object with precision predicability.
There, I think you're wrong. The G12 has a relatively long shutter lag - that's reproducible and quite predictable. If you're shooting unpredictable action, that's a problem (even the short shutter lag of a Canon 1-series can be an issue in some situations - particularly for Servo AF; the deep DoF of a P&S obviates that issue, though). But a grand prix race strikes me as a situation where the action is predictable - you have a feel for your shutter lag, then you press the button that long before the shot you want (ideally, having prefocused). I've used that technique with good success with an S95.

Macfly, sorry, I know that was a little harsh. I've looked through some of your portfolio previously, and there are some great shots there - you certainly know how to use your gear. That's why it sort of surprised me that you found the G12 so limiting. Granted, it's not a dSLR. But it's not supposed to be - heck, my cheapest lens costs twice what a G12 does, and it can't even take a picture without a camera body...

Btw, back in November you were going to eBay your G12 in favor of a m4/3. Why do you still have it? If you do go that route, maybe we'll see a post about that camera being a piece of junk, too - the current offerings from Oly and Pano aren't much faster on the shutter than the G12.
 

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Well, as we all know, the best craftsmen and artists blame their tools for a poor result. Oh wait, that's wrong, isn't it?
Umm. You might want to take five minutes to look at Macfly's blog or website before you criticize his craftsmanship.

He's made it very clear in previous posts why he doesn't like the G12. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but as I recall, he indicated in the past that he feels the G12 was a step backwards from the G10, which he previously owned.

He's entitled to his opinion and I think he makes some valid points. I also appreciate that a photographer working at his level in the industry takes the time to participate in a forum like this and share his opinions.

I appreciate his opinion because it has helped me in considering whether or not to buy a G12. The downsides that he's mentioned in the past help me to evaluate the camera for my own needs.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,182
1,455
neuroanatomist said:
The G12 has a relatively long shutter lag ... the current offerings from Oly and Pano aren't much faster on the shutter than the G12.
I just read about the solution - the new HTC Slide smartphone features an 8 MP camera with an f/2.2 lens, backside-lit sensor, and "zero shutter lag to give an instant shot." No more need for a separate camera... :p
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,305
568
macfly said:
gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

The images that came out might be nice, but they aren't the images that you thought you were taking when you pressed the button, because what you were looking at and trying to record happened half a second or more before these. In the first image you probrably wanted to freeze the horse mid air as it was jumping and in second you probrably wanted the guy who'se been thrown from the bull in mid air too. Oh well, thats a G for you.

I don't mean to call you a liar on a public forum, but I know that no G will capture a moving object with anything approaching precision predicability.

neuroanatomist, I do this for a living, but sometimes don't want to take my work gear to an event like the F1 GP when I'm just going to hang out with friends. There is an extensive set of images of car, boats and planes racing in the SPEED section of my website, and I have covered a lot of racing events for many magazines. www.macfly.com
I've also had people tell me a image could not have come from my point and shoot, and they called me a liar. It certainly lowered my opinion of them.

My wife has a G11 which I occasionally use, it is a excellent point and shoot. Yes, when taking action images, you have to anticipate what is going to happen and press the shutter a little early, but the ability to do that shows skill. And, of course, you won't get as many perfect images as someone shooting 10 FPS with a 1D and then looking to see if he happened to get a good one. I do that with my 1D MK III, but its luck more than skill when I get a perfect one.
 

gmrza

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 21, 2011
521
1
Mt Spokane Photography said:
macfly said:
gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

<snip>
I've also had people tell me a image could not have come from my point and shoot, and they called me a liar. It certainly lowered my opinion of them.

<snip>
The point I was trying to make is that, given an understanding of the limitations of the tools you are using you can achieve good results.

Macfly: with the horses, I achieved exactly what I wanted - the barrel races are totally predictable, because the course goes around the barrel. After the first couple of riders, you can work out exactly when to release the shutter - give or take a bit, depending on your own reactions and the skill of the rider. The bulls are a bit more tricky, because the action is much less predictable. You do however still get an idea of when the rider is going to fall - the scary moments usually happen just around when he hits the ground. Admittedly, my keeper rate was not as good as that of my wife, who was shooting with a 5DmkII - still not the ideal camera, but better.

There is no way you could guarantee a success rate necessary for professional action photography with a G series. That doesn't make the camera a piece of junk. Much the same way, I prefer to cut wooden sleepers with a circular saw, because I can rip cut a 2.4m long treated pine sleeper in seconds. I don't have any idea how long the same job would take with a hand saw, and whether I could even cut a straight line that way. That doesn't mean that my hand saw is a piece of junk.

Don't knock the tool if you are using it outside of its intended range of uses... If you manage to stretch the tool to its limits and get good results, enjoy the satisfaction!

The other point I wanted to make is to make the most of the tools you have, rather than complaining. Which is why it is fun to leave the DSLRs in the cupboard sometimes and take out the G11.

Oh, and look at Neil van Niekerk's blog post about shooting a wedding with a Fuji X100!:
http://neilvn.com/tangents/2011/06/13/review-fuji-x100-photographing-a-wedding/
Great results - yes. Fun - absolutely yes. Would he risk doing that for a paying client - never!
 
J

j7h

Guest
I wouldn't wait for sensor costs per unit area to drop. Silicon wafer processing don't drop very quickly, but the amount of stuff that can be put on to a wafer increases dramatically, hence our world of constant miniaturization. A wafer with many small sensors can have quite a few defects and only a few of the die will be affected. The same wafer with large sensors and with the same defect map would lose a few of the larger sensors, but the cost of the lost sensors is amortized over fewer good sensors. It's a tough game to play in.

As for wanting a non-SLR to focus as well as an SLR, that's also very difficult. The autofocus mechanism for SLRs and non-SLRs is quite different. Here are links I found to a pair of really good descriptions of the operation of each type of focusing mechanism. They do a good job of explaining why phase detection in SLRs is so much faster than contrast detection in non-SLRs. The Java applets are fun.
http://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs178/applets/autofocusCD.html
http://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs178/applets/autofocusPD.html

Just chose the right tool for each job.
 
M

macfly

Guest
What a good link, thanks for sharing.

and here's my answer to the rubbish G12 - http://www.dpreview.com/news/1106/11063015olympusEP3preview.asp