Major Canon announcements in February and May of this year [CR2]

mjg79

EOS 80D
Feb 19, 2016
156
99
Pretty sure that Canon will not directly cooperate with Zeiss or Voigtlander, they never did before (as far as I know). I think they are too proud of their proven ability to make very good lenses by themselves. Plus, there were always offerings from other manufacturers for the EF mount, Sigma, Tampon, Tonika... Zeiss without direct cooperation. So they can rely on the other manufacturers to come up with lenses for the RF mount, including manual focusing lenses, - IF Canon manages to get a big enough share of the FF ML market. (I am pretty sure they will.)

Sony had to be more open in terms of cooperation when they started with their A7 series, since a fast growth of a decent, attractive lens selection for their E mount was vital for establishing their new camera line. Plus, the first FF lenses from Sony were mostly quite mediocre quality, what has changed in the past years, now they really do serious business. Btw I always have to silently giggle when I see their shiny, much too white lenses. Sony behaves like a hip hopper who managed to successfully overcome his poor roots, made a lot of fresh money, and who now tries to look like old money :devilish:
The reason I had asked was I am sure I read years and years ago when Zeiss released the ZE lenses that they had worked with Canon. If you cast your mind back to those days people buying cheap Tamron and Sigma glass would often worry about how the next year's camera would break compatibility etc and the lenses cease to work. I would be surprised if Zeiss released lenses that put consumers in that position but I have googled it and can't find any reference to it so maybe I am wrong.

Also Zeiss produced some pretty great AF glass for Sony's A-mount and everyone used to say we couldn't have it in EF mount because Zeiss wouldn't do the "reverse engineering" approach that Sigma did. Yet Zeiss the then released the ZE lenses...

As for Sony - I am maybe a bit less cynical! It's a strange company really. I worked in sound tech for years and have some respect for their equipment. Their attitude was often terrible when it came to making things proprietary etc and clearly they were extremely arrogant but they also made some great products. The company has changed hugely though.

I happen to think they have got it right for the modern era and Nikon and Canon are both in the 1990s with their thinking in terms of third parties. Two things changed a lot - manufacturing ability has now spread far and wide, Apple can go to a factory in China and get anything made to whatever spec they want - if required and paid for it will be the highest spec and accuracy you can get anywhere in the world. Yes much is cheap rubbish but Apple gets the best. No longer is manufacturing a secret that only a handful of companies understand (design and marketing is different of course).

The next change has been software and the internet. Firmware updates, AF software and code, all the stuff is now freely available, Sigma can have it within seconds and can have any engineer over the entire globe work on it and spread it to their customers for free and isntantly - this opening up of knowledge has radically changed the relationship between customer and manufacturer.

Sony grasped this. As did Apple. Curiously those two were the absolute worst companies going in terms of arrogantly doing everything themselves. But Apple with their "made for iPhone" system and Sony licensing Sigma, Tamron and Voigtlander have adapted better to the modern world. Their approach lets them keep some control on quality while seeing their ecosystem expand. Why would Apple want to make every last possible weird accessory for iPhones? Why would Sony wish to make a manual focus 21mm 1.4, a cheap light 28-75/2.8 or a giant heavy Art style lens when other companies can do it and let Sony concentrate on the higher volume sellers. As long as they can maintain quality there is no harm I think.

In 1995 the Canon and Nikon approach made sense, the third party stuff was often rubbish. But these days? Nobody can say the new Voigtlander or Sigma lenses are rubbish. And for many those are now reasons to buy into the system. I would love to have some of the new light small Voigtlander glass for travel but I have no interest in buying a Sony or Leica camera so I am stuck.

Your comments about sony's often strange taste, I concur with. They have always been a bit that way, a bit trying too hard to appear like they re not trying hard. As you said, like a rapper in a Rolls Royce, it just never looks quite right!
 

mjg79

EOS 80D
Feb 19, 2016
156
99
I think like many here I am desperately hoping Canon release a camera with IBIS. I will enjoy mounting some old rangefinder glass, some old Nikon Ai glass and it also will mean I can happily carry on using my EF 24-70L II and not have to find the money for the RF IS version...

But has there been any kind of official promise of this? I have this nagging feeling that, away from message boards like this one, 99% of people don't care about IBIS as long as the lens has IS. And Canon has gone out of their way with RF glass to stabilise it. Even the 35/1.8, the 15-35/2.8 and 24-70/2.8, lenses that Sony and Nikon for example are not stabilising, all have IS.

Indeed it is only the 1.2 primes and the 28-70 so far that don't have IS. Most professional applications for those lenses won't rely on IBIS - the 28-70 is clearly for events where any serious photographer will keep the shutter speed well above the minimum (he won't want to have to explain to the bride that he is sorry the key photo is blurry, he wanted to shoot at ISO 100 to show off on canonrumors, so tried to shoot at 1/10 second - without or without IBIS that would be stupid) and the 1.2 lenses will be used in a lot of posed portraits etc where lighting is usually controlled.

Nikon some time before the release of the Z mount promised IBIS. But have we actually got any real reason to assume Canon will offer it? And if they do, doesn't it seem strange they put IS in a key lens like the 15-35/2.8, a top line lens they will be selling for the next decade, if their upcoming cameras will have IBIS anyway? They just made that lens unnecessarily expensive, heavy and large and made the optical design far more difficult. Canon doesn't usually make things hard for themselves.

Maybe I've completely missed some point here!
 

mjg79

EOS 80D
Feb 19, 2016
156
99
Looks like you entered photography after 2010. In the decade before, Canon was leading the pixel race, and the 5D II was the first FF camera with HD video, which was a game changer in video business. Nikon particularly was in trouble. Canon advanced CMOS sensor tech when all other manufacturers preferred CCD, because CMOS was said to be too noisy - but in the end it opened up leading video capabilities for Canon back then. Unfortunately, after 2010, Canon really slowed down sitting on their laurels and let Sony pull ahead. Btw this typical for electronics industry, Sony had the better CMOS technology because they invested later in their production lines. I just mention this because such an oscillation between being very innovative and very conservative in the camera sector is quite typical for Canon's history. So let's see what future will bring.
The big difference from before 2010 to now is Sony's approach. They have completely changed the rules of the game, brining in huge economies of scale and massive investment to sensor fabrication, leveraging all the tens of millions of phone and other consumer sensors they sell.

Sensor fabrication is a bit like memory production - it's an area where the theory of economies of scale actually works out almost like in a textbook. Canon was indeed often ahead of Nikon, but that was a commercial light heavyweight fighting a middleweight. Now there's a big heavyweight and I am not so sure Canon can simply click their fingers and get ahead again in sensors.

I actually don't think it matters and will matter less and less. The clean shadows when raising 5 stops was always irrelevant to 99% of photographers. Sony's ability to offer high frame rates and high resolution in one has been good for them but that is something Canon will gradually approach.

But you can't just assume that the way competition was when it was largely Nikon v Canon will be repeated when it's Sony v Canon. The sums of money Sony has sunk into their sensor business is huge, literally billions of dollars they have borrowed and invested over the past decade.They spotted the growth in smartphone cameras, they realised that almost every element of modern life, from security systems to self driving cars were going to require advanced sensors and they made a wise call.

As tech matures of course it spreads out so I don't see any real danger for Canon, they have probably been through the worst of it around 2010-2015, I suspect it will become like smartphone CPUs - once they are all good enough it ceases to matter so much.
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,398
639
mjg79 Interesting analysis. I only have to say that in my opinion it was smart move that Canon put IS on their 2.8 zooms (15-35 and 24-70) because it is exactly what could increase their sales. Even the 70-200 got a huge reduction in weight and a variable reduction in size depending on zoom position. I believe they made their mirrorless system even more competitive and appealing (At least it worked with me who use these two zooms for low light interiors) Also if I recall correctly they have a patent regarding the IS and IBIS cooperation. So add the extreme 28-70 f/2 zoom and the two f/1.2 prime lenses with superb IQ and you have quite a start in mirrorless systems irrespective of cameras which anyway will soon be replaced with better ones. It's a win win.
 
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Gazwas

EOS 80D
Sep 3, 2018
110
71
Forget the Jack of all trades 5D camera as they are always a compramise.

Specifically targetted cameras that do what they are indended extremely well.

1. High resolution detail, low ISO optimised with extended DR.
2. Low resolution camera with excellect video codecs/features/DR.

Then later on bring in the mid reolution high frame rate/high ISO verion when we have more long RF telephotos for the 5D/1DX events shooters.

I'm hoping for a high res camera and separtare video focused RF Canon please.
 

mjg79

EOS 80D
Feb 19, 2016
156
99
mjg79 Interesting analysis. I only have to say that in my opinion it was smart move that Canon put IS on their 2.8 zooms (15-35 and 24-70) because it is exactly what could increase their sales. Even the 70-200 got a huge reduction in weight and a variable reduction in size depending on zoom position. I believe they made their mirrorless system even more competitive and appealing (At least it worked with me who use these two zooms for low light interiors) Also if I recall correctly they have a patent regarding the IS and IBIS cooperation. So add the extreme 28-70 f/2 zoom and the two f/1.2 prime lenses with superb IQ and you have quite a start in mirrorless systems irrespective of cameras which anyway will soon be replaced with better ones. It's a win win.
Sounds sensible. Much as I dislike the weight I would consider the 28-70/2 instead of the 24-70 if there is a body with IBIS.

I believe some of the amazing performance of the olympus micro four-thirds stabilisation comes from the combination of IBIS and IS so I am sure the two can work together.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out anyway. I remember years ago on here with people saying "there's no way in 2014 Canon can possibly release a camera without IBIS" some joked that Leica would have IBIS before Canon and lo and behold it happened. I would be surprised if in the coming years it doesn't arrive at some point but I certainly won't be shocked if Canon doesn't bring it this year - hopefully I am wrong!
 

slclick

135L
Dec 17, 2013
3,724
1,440
Forget the Jack of all trades 5D camera as they are always a compramise.

Specifically targetted cameras that do what they are indended extremely well.

1. High resolution detail, low ISO optimised with extended DR.
2. Low resolution camera with excellect video codecs/features/DR.

Then later on bring in the mid reolution high frame rate/high ISO verion when we have more long RF telephotos for the 5D/1DX events shooters.

I'm hoping for a high res camera and separtare video focused RF Canon please.
Nice way to alienate a HUGE group of pro shooters.The 5D line has been the wedding and event shooters go to gear for years. No reason to stop that because of Sony. Is that what 'some people' think Canon might be doing here? Bowing to Sony? Canon will do as Canon sees fit...old school, rock solid.
 
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Gazwas

EOS 80D
Sep 3, 2018
110
71
Nice way to alienate a HUGE group of pro shooters.The 5D line has been the wedding and event shooters go to gear for years. No reason to stop that because of Sony. Is that what 'some people' think Canon might be doing here? Bowing to Sony? Canon will do as Canon sees fit...old school, rock solid. Meanwhile, dictation software has a long way to go it seems.
Why, would they not be interested in a mid reolution high frame rate/high ISO R camera as I mentioned?

Is seems to me lately it's pretty much all Canon offer - cameras for sports, wedding and events shooters. Nothing of interest for video shooters unless you step up to the cinema line (no RF mount yet) and nothing high resolution other than the aging 5Ds.

I don't think Sony has anything to do with it and more to do with smart phones. Make targeted camera the best you can and let the iPhone etc be the jack of all trades device.
 

justaCanonuser

Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Feb 12, 2014
505
314
Frankfurt, Germany
The big difference from before 2010 to now is Sony's approach. They have completely changed the rules of the game, brining in huge economies of scale and massive investment to sensor fabrication, leveraging all the tens of millions of phone and other consumer sensors they sell.

Sensor fabrication is a bit like memory production - it's an area where the theory of economies of scale actually works out almost like in a textbook. Canon was indeed often ahead of Nikon, but that was a commercial light heavyweight fighting a middleweight. Now there's a big heavyweight and I am not so sure Canon can simply click their fingers and get ahead again in sensors.

I actually don't think it matters and will matter less and less. The clean shadows when raising 5 stops was always irrelevant to 99% of photographers. Sony's ability to offer high frame rates and high resolution in one has been good for them but that is something Canon will gradually approach.

But you can't just assume that the way competition was when it was largely Nikon v Canon will be repeated when it's Sony v Canon. The sums of money Sony has sunk into their sensor business is huge, literally billions of dollars they have borrowed and invested over the past decade.They spotted the growth in smartphone cameras, they realised that almost every element of modern life, from security systems to self driving cars were going to require advanced sensors and they made a wise call.

As tech matures of course it spreads out so I don't see any real danger for Canon, they have probably been through the worst of it around 2010-2015, I suspect it will become like smartphone CPUs - once they are all good enough it ceases to matter so much.
Canon's revenue in 2019 was 3.951 trillion Yen, Sony's 8.665 trillion Yen, so Sony is a bit more than double size of Canon. So, Sony is indeed a heavier weight, but overall they depend much more on consumer markets than Canon, who does also a lot of business for industrial partners. If the worst happens, they could start buying Sony sensors, like Nikon and like Canon already does with smaller sensors. The disadvantage for us customers then would be a lack of competition, Sony would establish a sensor monopole. Monopoles are always bad for economics. So let's hope that the David Canon can stand against Goliath Sony. A strong competition is important for further technical progress.
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,920
541
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
I thought about this .. is it really going to be that much better than oversampling from 20MP or 24MP?

versus taking a low MP sensor?

I would assume you would want to oversample - since that, with clever algorithms can reduce noise even further.

I could see it when you couldn't oversample because of feasbility - sure low MP is fine, but since Canon has already shown they can, why would you want this?

versus something like the 20MP 1DX sensor that can output nearly 6K RAW for you to post process down to 4K to your hearts content?
Enjoy your site! Keep up the good work!

I shoot video now on an EOS R and previously on the DX2 (still a bit on that from time to time). I dont mind shooting the DX2 for video except for 2 conditions.

1) No HDMI out for 4k (I'd much prefer to record directly to ProRes to avoid having to go through media encoder in post)
2) Kinda bulky and cumbersome to balance on my Ronin M

So the EOS R eliminates BOTH those issues, but I lose 4k60 (which I wasn't using frequently) and I get a 1.78x crop. I can deal with those issues better than no external recording. On a tripod, sure the DX2 is great especially if I want to get the slo-mo 4k.

If I had an EOS R body type with a FF sensor read in 4k in addition to what I already have with it now, I'd gladly get one. Even if it didn't have 4k60. The Crop on the DX2 has never been an issue, as its only 1.3x. Really not too bad. But if Canon IS building what is being rumored here as a truly video centric EOS R body... then eah give me 12MP because then that same Digic X (not having to sample 20MP and then squish) could get faster frame rates or even reduce heat since Id suspect you aren't working the CPU as hard.

But look, if they just use the DX3 sensor and basically make a Video Feature Set Only DX3 in an EOS R body... OK. I dont want/need to replace my DX2. Kinda what the rumor is making this sound like, but if they want to use a 12 MP sensor, no binning, and has extreme low light performance... BETTER
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,920
541
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
versus something like the 20MP 1DX sensor that can output nearly 6K RAW for you to post process down to 4K to your hearts content?
RAW probably wont get used all that often by most folks. i think that was a really smart hat-tip however to the higher end users who want cameras in a smaller form factor compared to a big Arri or RED rig to get high quality RAW footage in Log that grades extremely well with those major cameras RAW footage. Wht we've seen Canon DSLRs w/ ML used in a number of major films to get in places other cameras cant
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,920
541
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
Higher resolutions don't correspond to significant impacts on low light performance though.

A lower resolution sensor will most likely allow very quick read out, meaning very little rolling shutter
The A7S has AWFUL rolling shutter so low MP doesnt make global shutter a given. That said if this Digic X is as fast as they say, perhaps it CAN achieve global shutter on perfect 8.8 MP full frame 4k . Hence another reason you dont want a bigger sensor that oversamples
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,920
541
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
Canon's revenue in 2019 was 3.951 trillion Yen, Sony's 8.665 trillion Yen, so Sony is a bit more than double size of Canon.
Actually they are about 3x the size of Canon. Market Cap today:
Canon $30B (USD)
Sony $90B (USD)

And it’s Sony’s stock that has soars this past year while Canon’s has stagnated. But Sony has obviously a much broader product line that supports it and the market is also anticipating the huge PS5 release later this year
 

canonnews

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 27, 2017
510
711
Canada
www.canonnews.com
The A7S has AWFUL rolling shutter so low MP doesnt make global shutter a given. That said if this Digic X is as fast as they say, perhaps it CAN achieve global shutter on perfect 8.8 MP full frame 4k . Hence another reason you dont want a bigger sensor that oversamples
DIGIC X has zip to do with global shutter.
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,920
541
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
DIGIC X has zip to do with global shutter.
I assumed processing power related to how much raw data could be handled in a single burst as opposed to a rolling readout. I could be mistaken. I understand however he shutter itself also has to physically be able to accommodate, and whether Canon would equip the sensor with this is another conversation.