More Mentions of a Canon Mirrorless Announcement Ahead of Photokina [CR1]

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
810
325
Hardly doomed but it is a risky strategy by Canon to be slow to the mirrorless full frame market.
It's only anecdotal and not reflective of the market as a whole but a friend of mine works in a camera shop and he's finding alot of Canon and Nikon users trading in to switch to Sony Mirrorless. They are starting to get overstocked in 2nd hand gear. The A7R III has alot of interest in my circles which is serious amateur as opposed to professional.
But are they interested in it because it lacks something (i.e. a mirror)? Or are they interested in something else?

If Canon just dropped the mirrorbox from the 5D4, added an EVF and started selling it as a "mirrorless" camera, would they buy it?

Part of it is looking for something new and better and no solid word from Canon
But isn't it a normal strategy for Canon? No solid word about "something new and better" until it is ready to hit the market. So far, it worked well. What changed?
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
303
141
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
But are they interested in it because it lacks something (i.e. a mirror)? Or are they interested in something else?
If Canon just dropped the mirrorbox from the 5D4, added an EVF and started selling it as a "mirrorless" camera, would they buy it?
I want better DR, no AA filter and more megapixels. 36-40 would be fine, 50 would be too many. Most importantly I want Canon to continue to support the EF mount.

However the best dream camera would be a EF-compatible medium format camera from Canon. Imagine that the rumored EF-X mount is actually a medium format mount. EF-X lenses will work as medium format lenses covering the whole sensor (say 50Mp), EF lenses will produce slightly cropped images (say 36Mp) and EF-S lenses will only use 22Mp. Actually some EF lenses may work ok at the full size.

That'd be a killer camera, I wonder if the upcoming Nikon mirrorless uses a similar concept.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
903
129
But are they interested in it because it lacks something (i.e. a mirror)? Or are they interested in something else?

If Canon just dropped the mirrorbox from the 5D4, added an EVF and started selling it as a "mirrorless" camera, would they buy it?


But isn't it a normal strategy for Canon? No solid word about "something new and better" until it is ready to hit the market. So far, it worked well. What changed?
What has changed is that Nikon and Canon are signaling that they agree than mirrorless is the future for fullframe. For the last five years or so, much of the internet buzz has been pro Sony and pro mirrorless. Sony still has the only fullframe mirrorless models on the market. Maybe Nikon and Canon have put themselves in the awkward position of increasing the demand for fullframe mirrorless while leaving Sony as the only one able to meet that demand.
 

syder

EOS 80D
Apr 29, 2012
175
40
I agree mostly because we are in Canon world, otherwise this could happen (I can see a GH6 having 90% of these).
Except the GH line is 4/3 not S35, no NDs, no XLRs, no DPAF, totally different ergonomically etc.

It does what it does (indie filmmaking, music videos, no budget work, being a very small b camera) very well, but it absolutely is not competitive with the canon, sony or panasonic cinema cameras.

At work we have sets of C100s (mk i) and GH4s based in different places and most people are regularly astonished by how much better the material out of the C100s is 95% of the time. That tends to be a result of both technical (e.g. low light performance) and quality of life (e.g. not having to deal with screw on ND filters at events) improvements. Obviously the GH4 is better for slo mo or if you are finishing in 4k, but for regular speed material finished in 1080p the older, lower specced Canon is a better tool most of the time.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,160
336
It's only anecdotal and not reflective of the market as a whole but a friend of mine works in a camera shop and he's finding alot of Canon and Nikon users trading in to switch to Sony Mirrorless. They are starting to get overstocked in 2nd hand gear. The A7R III has alot of interest in my circles which is serious amateur as opposed to professional.
And that IMO is where Sony is playing a risky strategy - they rely heavily on people switching from CaNikon. Even if CaNikon first iteration of FF mirrorless is below Sony tech-wise, they will still slow the rate of switching, and in 2 or 3 iterations later that will slow even more. Unless Sony develops a strong new-user customer base in the next 3 years they will be in real trouble because their customer source will dry up. And although mirrorless advocates say the only reason CaNikon is still leading is because of their customer loyalty, it has taken decades to build that loyalty and Sony has barely started regards new users.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
810
325
What has changed is that Nikon and Canon are signaling that they agree than mirrorless is the future for fullframe.
But at least Canon isn't.

And I still remember when every major camera manufacturer was signaling that "APS is the future for film". Haven't happened yet, and I'm obviously not holding my breath. You can still buy 135 (fullframe) format film, but not APS.

Then there was time when every manufacturer but Canon was signalling that "APS is the future for digital, there is no future for fullframe". Then the first digital ILC I bought was a fullframe Canon.

So, probably, Canon still doesn't need to get rid of stuff that works just fine.
 

tiggy@mac.com

Pentax K-1000
Jan 20, 2014
473
143
Thetford, VT
www.ForestMetrix.com
If precedent holds, we will see a significant, sanctioned, rumor or announcement within 48 hits of a solid Nikon announcement. If the canon specs are to be inferior (slightly likely), it will be very general.

If canon release timing isn’t explicit in this rumor/announcement, it will indicate far future release.

If Nikon goes d850 all-out, the entire Nikon universe will start to look reasonable again, especially as third party glass options have radically improved.

I doubt this will happen, but the best thing that could happen for canon shooters is that Canon goes to #2 market share status. Astronomically low odds, unfortunately, and I say this as a canon fan.



Nikon sure is trying to hold attention for as long as possible without saying much aren't they? I can understand why Canon wouldn't want to release much while the competition is effectively spamming their teasers.

If Nikon's objective is to ensure people know that they have something coming and to keep potential buyers from buying something else now, Canon doesn't really need to do the same. Maybe the rumours will flow a bit more freely once Nikon makes a full and proper announcement.

I don't really expect to be in the market for a full frame mirrorless camera, but I still find myself caught up in the rumour mill: it's a testament to how much hype is getting applied to the topic (or how easily swayed I am). At this point I'm not sure it's possible to release a camera that won't disappoint a vocal few.
 

LSXPhotog

EOS RP
Apr 2, 2015
317
119
www.diossiphotography.com
I agree, Canon is a sleeping giant and when they move they move. I don't mind the wait at all. My existing canon bodies do everything I ask with ease. It takes time to do things right and I think Canon is getting ready to deliver the next wave
My sentiments exactly. Canon can't afford to make a major failure with a big movement it plans to take its company. So I don't think they are taking this task lightly. Figuring out the form factor, tech, price point, lens mount, etc....all of that takes times. Meanwhile, Sony has released multiple iterations of cameras that didn't have the best reputation for reliability and usability. They're finally in a very sweet spot and the technology has fully matured. I look forward to seeing what Canon has to offer. I make my living with this gear...I can't afford to jump ship and make a mistake or reinvest in a new system that may or may not work for me.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
483
184
I really hope it’s impressive and rivals the A7RIII and D850 in specs and pricing. Canon have an excellent opportunity to reshape the past three years of bad press.

It’s not all bad but the 6DII, 5DIV pricing and video features and the M50 have not been as welcomed as Canon or many of their users had hoped.
What bad press? There is no credible press with regard to photographic equipment any more, and it has been a lot longer than three years since there was.

All we have now are the Tony Northrup and the Fro Knows Photos types that post whatever gets them the most clicks, regardless of accuracy or their bias. Either that or DPR, who's editorial policy is apparently driven by whatever things have the highest profit margin for DPR's owner, amazon.
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
434
I really hope it’s impressive and rivals the A7RIII and D850 in specs and pricing. Canon have an excellent opportunity to reshape the past three years of bad press.

It’s not all bad but the 6DII, 5DIV pricing and video features and the M50 have not been as welcomed as Canon or many of their users had hoped.
For those interested in performance and quality rather than impressive specs, this is not accurate. A select few forum dwellers hoped for more - actual photographers who have bought the 6D II, 5DIV and M50 hvave been very satisfied and find that their cameras are excellent. Despite the fact that actual buyers have repeatedly praised these cameras, those few that were disappointed continually exaggerate the disappointment level. People on this forum who have used and tested the Sony FF compared to the 6D II have found the Canon superior in most ways and wwouldn't trade. As has been pointed out over and over again, the Sony cameras UNDERperform compared to the specs. Of course, those that love and promote Sony will never believe that the Sonys - despite their superior sensor tech, are not necessarily superior or even close to equal to their Canon counterparts.
 
Reactions: stevelee

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
Canon seems to wait until Nikon MILC system is fully revealed. Last time Nikon ran a great teaser campaign, the camera itself was totally underwhelming and flopped (Nikon Df). Don't think Nikon will repeat that mistake, but let's see "the full mo(u)nty" ... :D
 

The Fat Fish

VFX Artist
Jul 29, 2017
85
52
26
Exeter, UK
For those interested in performance and quality rather than impressive specs, this is not accurate. A select few forum dwellers hoped for more - actual photographers who have bought the 6D II, 5DIV and M50 hvave been very satisfied and find that their cameras are excellent. Despite the fact that actual buyers have repeatedly praised these cameras, those few that were disappointed continually exaggerate the disappointment level. People on this forum who have used and tested the Sony FF compared to the 6D II have found the Canon superior in most ways and wwouldn't trade. As has been pointed out over and over again, the Sony cameras UNDERperform compared to the specs. Of course, those that love and promote Sony will never believe that the Sonys - despite their superior sensor tech, are not necessarily superior or even close to equal to their Canon counterparts.
And with everyone who’s disappointed there are those like yourself who will defend the cameras. I’ve had plenty of use with the 5DIV (good camera, terrible video/pricing) and the 6DII (I have very little good to say about it). I must admit I have never used the M50 but based on the 2.56x crop 4K I know it’s not for me.

You of course like these cameras but surely you can appreciate the frustration surrounding them? Imagine saving $2000 for a $2000 specd upgrade to your original 6D to them be greeted with a $1200 specd camera priced at $2000 that is not a noticeable 5 year improvement and in some ways is slightly worse. Can you still take excellent photos with it? Yes. Is it a camera worthy of 2017 and it’s release price? No. Since the release the camera has dropped nearly $800 but that does not help those who wanted a $2000 6D upgrade. By 2018 spec standards the 5DIV would fill the void but it’s remained at an absurd $3300 which is D850/A7RIII money. That’s the area the 5DSR Mk II should be occupying.

As for your dislike of the mentioned YouTubers, that is the press of today.
 

sdz

EOS 80D
Sep 13, 2016
146
69
Pittsburgh, PA
For those interested in performance and quality rather than impressive specs, this is not accurate. A select few forum dwellers hoped for more - actual photographers who have bought the 6D II, 5DIV and M50 hvave been very satisfied and find that their cameras are excellent.
Do any currently available FF cameras take crap photos?

I ask because it seems to me that we argue about the quality of the seats available in luxury class, that we debate the relative merits of cameras that are, as a class, good enough. They are more than capable, although the various camera systems have their individual strengths and weaknesses.
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
434
You of course like these cameras but surely you can appreciate the frustration surrounding them? Imagine saving $2000 for a $2000 specd upgrade to your original 6D to them be greeted with a $1200 specd camera priced at $2000 that is not a noticeable 5 year improvement and in some ways is slightly worse
If you have used the camera, than I can not argue with your opinion.

However, I have to wonder why virtually everyone else on the forum who has used the 6D II finds it better than the 6D in almost every way.
 

The Fat Fish

VFX Artist
Jul 29, 2017
85
52
26
Exeter, UK
If you have used the camera, than I can not argue with your opinion.

However, I have to wonder why virtually everyone else on the forum who has used the 6D II finds it better than the 6D in almost every way.
I don't doubt it's better, I question by how much for it's 5 year later release date and $2000 price. The two step backs are dynamic range (only a small amount but still a step back after 5 years) and the lack of ALL-I video.

The benefits on paper over the original would be 6 extra megapixels, improved AF system with DPAF and a flappy screen... That's it.

In reality I find the inclusion of DPAF less useful as it works best in video and I could never see me using the 6DII for video. There's no 4K and soft 1080p which isn't ideal. It may however work for vloggers.

With this said obviously different users value different features more than others but it looks to me like all 5 years has gained you is 6mp and some improved AF at the expense of dynamic range.
 

MrAndre

I'm New Here
Aug 12, 2018
22
14
I do not get people defending canon here. If you are in the market looking for a FF camera, Canon is the last brand that comes to mind. No camera they are offering is up to par with their peers. They are lagging behind about 3-5 years, which is huge. In the last five years DR has improved by up to 5 stops, autofocus like eye-AF and no black out while continious shooting have come along. Dont get me started on Canons take on 4K video. For the same money of the 5D Mark4 you can get a Sony A7III with a lens, which exceed the 5D in every way possible besides resolution.

I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper. And every portrait photographer knows, how awful it feels to sort out a picture with perfect expression, because of missed focus! Just like every landscape photographer knows the pain of not enough DR in a critical moment.

Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony. If your camera breaks today, what would you buy? Sony has earned the trust of a lot of people to give you the newest and most advanced technology in every iteration. Nikon at least tries to keep up. But Canon lost a lot of trust. They released cameras which they crippled on purpose so you have to spend more money. Why would you want to stay with a company like that?
 
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Reactions: The Fat Fish

Normalnorm

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 25, 2012
471
78
I do not get people defending canon here. If you are in the market looking for a FF camera, Canon is the last brand that comes to mind. No camera they are offering is up to par with their peers. They are lagging behind about 3-5 years, which is huge. In the last five years DR has improved by up to 5 stops, autofocus like eye-AF and no black out while continious shooting have come along. Dont get me started on Canons take on 4K video. For the same money of the 5D Mark4 you can get a Sony A7III with a lens, which exceed the 5D in every way possible besides resolution.

I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper. And every portrait photographer knows, how awful it feels to sort out a picture with perfect expression, because of missed focus! Just like every landscape photographer knows the pain of not enough DR in a critical moment.

Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony. If your camera breaks today, what would you buy? Sony has earned the trust of a lot of people to give you the newest and most advanced technology in every iteration. Nikon at least tries to keep up. But Canon lost a lot of trust. They released cameras which they crippled on purpose so you have to spend more money. Why would you want to stay with a company like that?
So... magical improvements by the competition that convince you that your photography would be better if only....

As a working pro that has been using pro cameras (and amateur cameras) on a daily basis since the 70's, I can unequivocally state that what we are seeing here is the endless turning of the marketing wheel.
Yes, changes are coming if not already here. Yes, some of these changes are very welcome and many will help make good photos more easily.
However, as the dust settles the reality of the changes will become apparent. What we think of as "must-haves" will reveal themselves to be "eh, OK". Aspects that many thought critical will be seen to have counterbalancing drawbacks. Other features will be found to be optimistically hyped.

I can further attest to the fact that no camera EVER made me a better photographer. Practice, failure and more practice made me better. Not best, better.

What WILL remain is our need to actually master cameras irrespective of their putatively magical properties.