More Mentions of a Canon Mirrorless Announcement Ahead of Photokina [CR1]

Hector1970

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 22, 2012
1,009
96
Thanks Fatfish and Mr Andre for your contributions. I'm sure there will be people with thousands of posts quick to dismiss your opinions. I think you explain quite well your concerns about Canon. The comment "I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship" for me is relevant. Having tried the A7R III I was quite impressed how much Sony had moved on. Eye focus was excellent and Silent shutter too has many uses for me. I'd like my next camera to be a Canon. Of course full frame mirrorless is a big step for them but its not like last week that they started working on it. They've made mirrorless cameras for years but while they sell well they are not best in class at APS-C level. If the new Canon full frame mirrorless is an average camera then my next move has a high chance of moving to Sony which would disappoint me but that's progress. I was quite happy with Nokia at the time. It had a great battery life and very reliable but couldn't connect in a user friendly way to the internet or run decent useful apps. It started as a trickle but reached a tipping point.
 

Kit.

EOS 7D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
796
322
I do not get people defending canon here. If you are in the market looking for a FF camera, Canon is the last brand that comes to mind. No camera they are offering is up to par with their peers.
Personally, I'd be looking at 5DIV.

They are lagging behind about 3-5 years, which is huge. In the last five years DR has improved by up to 5 stops,
You should be somewhat creative in defining and measuring that "DR".

Besides, on ISO values where DR is important to me, it hasn't really improved by more than 1 stop in the last 10 years.

autofocus like eye-AF and no black out while continious shooting have come along.
You may have it on Canon if you want it. Or you may opt out and use an OVF. Up to you.

Dont get me started on Canons take on 4K video.
When I'm interested in using a photo camera for taking videos, I have a P&S and a smartphone.

For the same money of the 5D Mark4 you can get a Sony A7III with a lens, which exceed the 5D in every way possible besides resolution.
Thanks, but I'm afraid that 100-400 with A7 would be very uncomfortable to handhold, and something tells me that Sony's 100-400 it is not as cheap as you describe it.

I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper. And every portrait photographer knows, how awful it feels to sort out a picture with perfect expression, because of missed focus! Just like every landscape photographer knows the pain of not enough DR in a critical moment.

Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony.
Oh, maybe it is different for us who during the film era did not have instant feedback and were forced to actually understand what we are shooting.

If your camera breaks today, what would you buy? Sony has earned the trust of a lot of people
Oh, about that "trust": if my camera breaks today, I may still be able to fix it for a reasonable price, and even if I cannot, I can buy something that is still compatible with my almost 20 years old 550EX. If my Sony laptop breaks today...

to give you the newest and most advanced technology in every iteration.
I don't need that, thank you very much. I need something that works.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
Most camera users - including FF camera owners - never use 100-400 or long white teles. It is a very niche use case in the overall market. Importance of large body to use large lenses is totally exaggerated in this forum. If Canon brings one (1) big, heavy, tough, fully-sealed, high fps sports & wildlife mirrorfree body ... "Canon 1M" ... that niche is totally taken care of. Slim new EF-X mount is also fine, because size/weight of a little EF/EF-X adapter is irrelevant with large camera and even larger lenses.

Vast majority of all users and use cases are perfectly well served by mirrorfree cameras sized between Sony A7 (1st gen) and A9 / upcoming Nikon MILC.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
477
174
I do not get people defending canon here. If you are in the market looking for a FF camera, Canon is the last brand that comes to mind. No camera they are offering is up to par with their peers. They are lagging behind about 3-5 years, which is huge. In the last five years DR has improved by up to 5 stops, autofocus like eye-AF and no black out while continious shooting have come along. Dont get me started on Canons take on 4K video. For the same money of the 5D Mark4 you can get a Sony A7III with a lens, which exceed the 5D in every way possible besides resolution.

I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper. And every portrait photographer knows, how awful it feels to sort out a picture with perfect expression, because of missed focus! Just like every landscape photographer knows the pain of not enough DR in a critical moment.

Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony. If your camera breaks today, what would you buy? Sony has earned the trust of a lot of people to give you the newest and most advanced technology in every iteration. Nikon at least tries to keep up. But Canon lost a lot of trust. They released cameras which they crippled on purpose so you have to spend more money. Why would you want to stay with a company like that?
You seem to have forgotten the 1D X Mark II. Nothing else anyone has on the market touches it (along with the Nikon D5 which, other than lens compatibility of some older F-mount lenses and the inconsistencies of still using mechanical aperture control with the vast majority of compatible F-mount lenses is the more or less equal of the 1D X II), when it comes to reliability, durability, and compatibility with every EF lens Canon has ever made.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
477
174
Most camera users - including FF camera owners - never use 100-400 or long white teles. It is a very niche use case in the overall market. Importance of large body to use large lenses is totally exaggerated in this forum. If Canon brings one (1) big, heavy, tough, fully-sealed, high fps sports & wildlife mirrorfree body ... "Canon 1M" ... that niche is totally taken care of. Slim new EF-X mount is also fine, because size/weight of a little EF/EF-X adapter is irrelevant with large camera and even larger lenses.

Vast majority of all users and use cases are perfectly well served by mirrorfree cameras sized between Sony A7 (1st gen) and A9 / upcoming Nikon MILC.
If you think the α9 comes anywhere close to the 1D X Mark II (or the D5) for continuous AF tracking between every frame at high frame rates, much less for shooting in less than ideal environmental conditions, you've obviously never shot sports/action with both cameras. And while it is true that most camera users do not own/use big whites, a good majority of working pros do. Those are the photographers who need something that always works more than they need to be able to pull up the details on the underside of a leaf in the dark shadows of the corner of an image that was underexposed by five stops because the camera holder that took the shot didn't know how to properly expose it.

A lot of well-heeled amateurs use big whites, 100-400s, 120-300s, and 200-400s as well. The 70-200/2.8 is becoming near-ubiquitous for even Uncle Bobs and MWCs. I also see more than a few 100-400s and 150-600s in the hands of enthusiasts that are not what one would consider independently wealthy. How many such shooters you see depends on where and what you are shooting.

It may be true that some here overestimate the percentage of the overall market concerned with the type of shooting that requires such large and heavy tools, but by the same token you seem to be underestimating them. You also seem to be underestimating just how much of the market you describe - those concerned only with angles of view that benefit from shorter flange distances and smaller lenses - will be gone for ILCs of any kind as phone based computational photography takes over that segment for all but a very niche consumer who desires a dedicated camera.
 

Treyarnon

EOS T7i
Jan 11, 2018
59
35
Cornwall, UK
Visit site
Most camera users - including FF camera owners - never use 100-400 or long white teles. It is a very niche use case in the overall market. Importance of large body to use large lenses is totally exaggerated in this forum. If Canon brings one (1) big, heavy, tough, fully-sealed, high fps sports & wildlife mirrorfree body ... "Canon 1M" ... that niche is totally taken care of. Slim new EF-X mount is also fine, because size/weight of a little EF/EF-X adapter is irrelevant with large camera and even larger lenses.

Vast majority of all users and use cases are perfectly well served by mirrorfree cameras sized between Sony A7 (1st gen) and A9 / upcoming Nikon MILC.
Full frame cameras ARE niche. There is a perfectly rational argument for saying that "the vast majority of users are perfectly well severed by APSC sensors" - A few of us choose to spend more money to buy slightly better cameras - but we are a niche part of the camera industry.

Also, its not just the weight/balance with big lenses that is an issue with ergonomics - being able to comfortably hand hold a camera for hours at a time is a big deal, as is the things like being able to operate all of the dials and buttons without taking the gloves off when working in sub zero temperatures.

Sony make some great cameras - but they still have not made a camera "for me" just yet.
 

Quackator

EOS RP
Jul 19, 2011
226
32
Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony.
That happened for a simple reason: Sony marketing money.
However, what some here call "press of today" (ignoring
the much better fitting "presstitutes of today") are already
switching ship. The rats are leaving.

One lists the caveats you should know before buying the A7III,
another admits that he made a mistake when rating the
6D MkII as under par, others suddenly name the M50 as
best bang for the buck.

All of them try to make it not too obvious, but they are all getting
ready to be hustled by the marketing branches team red and yellow.

DSLRs make approx 60% of the market, DSLM make 40%.
Sony has less than 30% of the mirrorless market, which makes
it's total share only 12%.

Canon today has 50+ % of the global market - without even
offering a single full frame mirrorless.

It ain't over before the fat lady sings - but I already hear her humming.
 
Reactions: jpcanon

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
Oh, really? For me, it looks like half of the forum uses 100-400.
as i said, Somehow this forum seems to be populated by large numbers of BIF shooters and [big] white tele users. In that respect not representative for the majority camera users, not even of FF camera users. :)
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,156
326
By 2018 spec standards the 5DIV would fill the void but it’s remained at an absurd $3300 which is D850/A7RIII money. That’s the area the 5DSR Mk II should be occupying.
The price of any goods is what people will pay and what people will think it is worth. The 5DIV has maintained its price because people are still buying it and think it is worth the money - I note that the A7R3 has just had a permanent 10% price drop in the UK - what does that say about what the market thinks of the Sony?

It seems that are some forum dwellers out of touch with the majority of the world.
 

Kit.

EOS 7D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
796
322
as i said, Somehow this forum seems to be populated by large numbers of BIF shooters and [big] white tele users.
Actually, 100-400 is neither. It's just a reasonable FF amateur telezoom with some interesting macro abilities.

In that respect not representative for the majority camera users,
The majority of camera users use Apple, Samsung, Huawei or Xiaomi.

The majority of Sony camera users use Xperia.

not even of FF camera users. :)
I think you are wrong here.
 

The Fat Fish

VFX Artist
Jul 29, 2017
85
52
26
Exeter, UK
The price of any goods is what people will pay and what people will think it is worth. The 5DIV has maintained its price because people are still buying it and think it is worth the money - I note that the A7R3 has just had a permanent 10% price drop in the UK - what does that say about what the market thinks of the Sony?

It seems that are some forum dwellers out of touch with the majority of the world.
Based on second hand prices they clearly don’t value the 5DIV that highly. Canon make a huge amount due to a high markup rather than selling in quantity with the 5DIV.

Also the A7RIII price drop is a result of Sony’s own A7III eating into the sales.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,156
326
Based on second hand prices they clearly don’t value the 5DIV that highly. Canon make a huge amount due to a high markup rather than selling in quantity with the 5DIV.

Also the A7RIII price drop is a result of Sony’s own A7III eating into the sales.
What has the second hand price got to do with my comment? I responded to your comments about new prices so don't go changing the the argument when someone points out the fallacy in your first one.

As for your explanation of Sony's price drop, Sony now are in the same market position as Canon with a Sub-2000 and and a sub-3000 model. And as I see it they cannot sustain sales of the higher priced model. Looks like someone at Sony made a boo-boo especially when Sony are supposed to be technologically superior in both areas. So why can Canon maintain their price but Sony can't?
I am not denying that Sony have their distinct advantages but it comes down (again!) to whether those differences really matter to most people most of the time.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: jpcanon

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
897
124
Based on second hand prices they clearly don’t value the 5DIV that highly. Canon make a huge amount due to a high markup rather than selling in quantity with the 5DIV.

Also the A7RIII price drop is a result of Sony’s own A7III eating into the sales.
And where did you find the information about 5DIV margins and the impact of the A7III on A7RIII sales?
 

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,467
95
I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper.
The 6D was a rehash of the 5D II, a body released 10 years ago and released to provide a cheap entry level body to full frame. You compare 10 year old technology to determine that Canon is 3 to 5 years behind?
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
434
I do not get people defending canon here. If you are in the market looking for a FF camera, Canon is the last brand that comes to mind. No camera they are offering is up to par with their peers. They are lagging behind about 3-5 years, which is huge. In the last five years DR has improved by up to 5 stops, autofocus like eye-AF and no black out while continious shooting have come along. Dont get me started on Canons take on 4K video. For the same money of the 5D Mark4 you can get a Sony A7III with a lens, which exceed the 5D in every way possible besides resolution.

I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper. And every portrait photographer knows, how awful it feels to sort out a picture with perfect expression, because of missed focus! Just like every landscape photographer knows the pain of not enough DR in a critical moment.

Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony. If your camera breaks today, what would you buy? Sony has earned the trust of a lot of people to give you the newest and most advanced technology in every iteration. Nikon at least tries to keep up. But Canon lost a lot of trust. They released cameras which they crippled on purpose so you have to spend more money. Why would you want to stay with a company like that?
Here is why people defend Canon here. Because folks like you who intentionally misinform and try to pass off baloney as fact.

Lagging way behind. Not according to facts unless you count 1 stop difference at base ISO and little or no difference thereafter. "DR improved 5 stops in the last 5 years..." Not even close. DR hasn't improved 5 stops in the last 15 years between the original Canon Rebel (crop) and the latest FF. Here's the DR chart from photons to photos :

dr-compare.JPG
 

ken

Engineer, snapper of photos, player of banjos
Aug 8, 2016
79
61
Huntsville, AL
I do not get people defending canon here. If you are in the market looking for a FF camera, Canon is the last brand that comes to mind. No camera they are offering is up to par with their peers. They are lagging behind about 3-5 years, which is huge. In the last five years DR has improved by up to 5 stops, autofocus like eye-AF and no black out while continious shooting have come along. Dont get me started on Canons take on 4K video. For the same money of the 5D Mark4 you can get a Sony A7III with a lens, which exceed the 5D in every way possible besides resolution.

I love Canon, but I am close to jumping ship. Every time I get back from a portrait session with my original 6D and I see a focus miss, because of recomposing, I am thinking: With Eye-AF that might have been a keeper. And every portrait photographer knows, how awful it feels to sort out a picture with perfect expression, because of missed focus! Just like every landscape photographer knows the pain of not enough DR in a critical moment.

Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony. If your camera breaks today, what would you buy? Sony has earned the trust of a lot of people to give you the newest and most advanced technology in every iteration. Nikon at least tries to keep up. But Canon lost a lot of trust. They released cameras which they crippled on purpose so you have to spend more money. Why would you want to stay with a company like that?
I shoot with the original 6D as well. I've had very few problems with portrait sessions, but it did take a while to get reliable at focus+recompose (as there's only one usable focus point). It's a good skill to have. I have had a few circumstances where it just seemed to REFUSE to autofocus (well-lit, close but not super close to subject, using a rented 24-70 f2.8 ii), but I just manually focused and moved on. (I never experienced that with my 70-200 f2.8 ii.) Anyway, I'm waiting to see what Canon does in FF mirrorlesss. Other than "it's getting old", I've really enjoyed the Canon gear I have. I'm skeptical of Sony, I don't enjoy my Sony a6000 much at all. We use it when we just can't carry a big camera, but it makes me sad to use it. That camera was so over-hyped. I consider the a6000 autofocus barely usable but the reviews when it came out claimed it was the best... fastest... ever. I will rent any Sony camera first if I ever consider purchasing one again. I pretty much do that with all camera gear now.

"Its no joke that you see every youtuber on the planet switching to sony." - If I made my living via ads vlogging about camera gear, I'd be using whatever camera was newest on the market too. It's new and people are searching on that term to lean about it, and that's where the money is. I don't blame them. But don't be shocked (or saddened) when they flood back to Nikon or Canon as those mirrorless offerings come out. They'll be the new hot thing, and keywords sell ads. But I think you're making a huge mistake thinking this is the general consumer market migrating to Sony. It's youtube vloggers. Sure, they're influencing some people, but they'll change like the weather. It's just whatever brand is "hot" at the moment.

I'm not sure how many Sony items you've ever purchased, but they have (historically at least) provided terrible (totally absent?) customer service. Stereo receivers, laptops, you name it. I hope they're getting their act together with professional camera services, but I have my doubts. Fool me 8 times, shame on you...
 

eosuser1234

EOS 80D
Jul 16, 2013
135
17
Japan.
In business, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting difference results is the weakspot that Canon seems to need to address.