New mid-level DSLR and EOS M5 Mark II the next ILC’s from Canon? [CR1]

QuisUtDeus

EOS 80D
Feb 20, 2019
115
80
Yes we should all roll over and just take what's given to us and have no expectations from companies but still gleefully give them thousands of our dollars. We should talk about how blessed and amazing our lives are like people do on Facebook.
You should give a company thousands of dollars for their products if you feel their products are worth it. If you'd rather purchase a competitor's product, you are perfectly free to purchase that instead. If no one makes the product you want (for the price you wish to pay) you're out of luck.

Your deliberate mischaracterization of malarcky's point is telling.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,074
1,293
Yes we should all roll over and just take what's given to us and have no expectations from companies but still gleefully give them thousands of our dollars. We should talk about how blessed and amazing our lives are like people do on Facebook.
No, but nor should we expect companies to give us everything we want for free.

See, you’re not the only one who can employ hyperbole.
 
Reactions: stevelee

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,184
465
Canon will never compete with Sony...
:ROFLMAO: Let me take a stab at one sided rhetoric...

Sony will never compete with Canon. Sony's only hope to stay close was to provide adapters for Canon glass, but they can't adapt Canon's new RF mount. If Canon has made more lens improvements like the 28-70 f/2, 50 f/1.2, 15-35 f/2.8 IS, and half size 70-200 f/2.8 IS then all bets are off. Canon officially won the race. Sony has nothing even close, as they are still working on f/1.4 primes and f/2.8 zooms that aren't even as sharp nor weather sealed.

Canon does a bazillion yen in R&D around lenses that have to be built to a higher technical level than anything Sony would dream of.

What does Sony have? Maybe a few kit lens sales, but other than that everyone using Sony is using adapted glass. And let's not forget that Canon's share of weather sealed bodies is 9,001 TIMES greater than Sony's. Sony is literally TWO AND A HALF DECADES behind Canon weather sealing technology. How can you close that gap and catch up?

Canon: 1
Sony: Lost

:LOL: That was fun.
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,184
465
Dustin Abbott <http://www.dustinabbott.com> has some interesting things to say when he performed a 3-way comparison between the Canon 24-70mm f2.8, Tamron G2 24-70mm f2.8 VC and the Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 Art. When tripod shooting the Canon yields slightly better results on the edges/corners (sharper for example - this is wide-open) but when hand-holding, the VC in the Tamron yielded better results. Now, individual results I'm sure would vary based on many variables, mainly how steady can you hold your camera. Still, I found it an interesting test/review...
Interesting since it was his individual reviews that resulted in me getting the Canon over the Tamron. I have two Tamron lenses and really like them. But I couldn't ignore the sharpness and micro contrast in the Canon 24-70 vs. the Tamron 24-70 while looking over his samples.

To be sure the Tamron is a good lens and it's a close call, but I had to go Canon on that one.
 

flip314

EOS 80D
Sep 26, 2018
122
124
Same here.

What many need to consider is that this is an evolutionary change, not a revolutionary change.

When we went from film to digital, it was a revolutionary change. We changed from analog to digital, we went from dark rooms to computer screens.

Mirrorless is evolutionary. Our workflow remains the same, the sensors are basically the same. A Mirrorless camera is a DSLR being used in liveview mode with an extra display (EVF) and no mirror.
MF to AF was also a revolutionary change. While I'm convinced RF/mirrorless will win and EF/DSLR will go away, I don't think it will be anywhere near as fast as the FD to EF transition was. I think people who are suggesting that FD to EF is a good metaphor for EF to RF are going to be surprised when EF hangs around for much longer than they expect.
 

malarcky

EOS M50
Nov 30, 2016
26
6
Yes because you exhibit the same superiority complex that you're criticizing in your post.
I don't use projection tactics in my responses to posts. My post was directed towards people who are on these forums who want to act like the Canon engineers are manipulative in their actions towards the market. My point is to the posters who don't feel like they need to pay any heed to the engineers that spend their hard earned time and engineering expertise to deliver products that we, as consumers, are sometimes taking for granted. I'm just making an observation. That should be clear to posters who actually understand my previous post, and the message I was attempting to deliver in that post. Only those who want to take what I said personally would respond in a fashion that is acting as though I was targeting a specific poster. Nowhere did I insinuate that I am doing that, as I am just making a generic statement that is prevalent in many posts on camera forums in general. The Canon engineers (and other manufacturers engineers) are doing their best to deliver products that put a smile on our faces, and to insinuate that they are deviantly manipulating their products to structure the market in a way that hampers their ability is just not where I believe they are, in their heart of hearts. I believe that we are enjoying the best that they have to offer, without a vested interest in hampering their products to structure their product lines. Of course some people will disagree, and that's their right to do so. Of course there is concern as to these product line placements, but they are giving us some really great products that should be celebrated, across the board.

I think that Canon is doing their best to deliver a premium product, and the impression I get from a lot of posters is that the engineers are manipulative more than they are intuitive. I'm not going to go into my perspective at length, but the products we are able to enjoy from Canon and other competitive manufacturers are of the highest quality that they are putting their namesakes on. The impression I get of these combative posts that only serve to muddy the waters is just fodder for the excitable persons who are on these forums to lessen the realization that these products we are purchasing today are marvels of technology. I see no need to keep hammering the suspicion that these manufacturers are crippling some products in order to boost the sales of others. Some people may disagree with that notion, and that's their right to do so.

To act like we (you and I and everyone else), as a consumer of cameras, can critique the manufacturers without any serious regard to what these engineers actually face in real time is what my post was about. It's not fair to take for granted what the deliberative features these products are actually facing when they release a new, or updated model, and then spread a rumor as to how they are dumbing down their products in order to sell more of other product lines. I believe that we are enjoying the best of what they have to offer, yet I get the impression that other posters just want to spread conspiracy theories about why they are manipulating certain models in order to advance or retard other product sales.
 
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privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,408
429
119
Fair enough but Nikon was also wiped out by Canon EF. Pros wanted the better autofocus and would switch systems to get it. My guess is that once there's an RF system to switch to (trinity zooms, a few other key lenses, and a pro body), Pros will want the better lenses that the SLR film-flange makes impossible, and will switch systems to get them.
Nikon took the complete opposite approach to AF and tried, remarkably unsuccessfully and with staggering incompetence, to maintain compatibility with the F mount. A decision that ended up being a nightmare of incompatibility across lenses and bodies, throw in their early digital attitude that there would never be a need for ff sensors and the corresponding pro F mount lenses without the image circle to cover either the film frame or the ff digital sensors that eventually arrived and it is a shock that Nikon didn't disenfranchise every single Nikon shooter over that 2000's period.

Most pros I know spend a fraction on camera gear that even comparatively modest forum posters do and I've never met one who said a lens they owned, however modest it was, wasn't good enough.

The difference between mirrored and mirrorless is simply that, one has an optical viewfinder and one has an electronic viewfinder. Personally whilst I do see some of the advantages of EVF's I have yet to use one I'd take over an OVF for hours a day day after day.
 

slclick

Blessed Be The Fruit Loops
Dec 17, 2013
2,865
303
It's going to take much more than a sensor's performance to get me to switch to something other than Canon. I can't be the only one who also values environmental toughness, battery life+ inter body compatibility, menu system(HUGE factor) ergonomics and most important ,lens selection. I fiddled with Nikon, Oly and Panasonic, only to sell it off with not nearly the resale value of Canon gear. I hold Sonys and just cannot fathom them becoming an extension of my hand like a 5D series body. I'm good.
 

SwissFrank

EOS RP
Dec 9, 2018
260
98
Will it help me take better pics? probably not
By "it" do you mean the R? If so, my answer is yes. I got absolutely perfect focus with the EF 50/1.2 on my 1DsIII about 10% of the time. On the R, with the RF 50/1.2, I nail it 90% of the time. And the ability to use my old Leica 35/1.4 ASPH on an adapter is huge in terms of image quality and portability.
 

max_sr

EOS M50
Jan 8, 2019
30
22
It's going to take much more than a sensor's performance to get me to switch to something other than Canon. I can't be the only one who also values environmental toughness, battery life+ inter body compatibility, menu system(HUGE factor) ergonomics and most important ,lens selection. I fiddled with Nikon, Oly and Panasonic, only to sell it off with not nearly the resale value of Canon gear. I hold Sonys and just cannot fathom them becoming an extension of my hand like a 5D series body. I'm good.
That whole menu system thing is funny, because the Sony system is essentially the same as the Canon one, with the only difference being that there are a lot more things to adjust on the Sony cameras and therefore their menu is larger. And the form of a handgrip is the most subjective thing about a camera. The Canon DSLR grips aren't deep enough for my hands. Does that mean their bodys have bad ergonomics in general? Or maybe just for me?
 

SwissFrank

EOS RP
Dec 9, 2018
260
98
difference between excellent lens performance and slightly more excellent lens performance pales in comparison to the difference between manual focus and autofocus. I don’t imagine owners of the 16-35/2.8 or 70-200/2.8 MkII lenses were rushing out to buy the MkIII versions. And that’s assuming the lenses are better, the 24-105 is essentially identical between EF and RF.
Right, but the difference between the EF 50/1.2 and RF isn't the difference between the typical MkII/MkIII lens difference. It's night and day. It's more than night and day.

And adding IS to the 16-35 (or now 15-35, apparently) and 24-70 I'll agree isn't going to be useful 2/3 of the time, but is going to be huge the other 1/3. You're right (in your separate comment about people shooting) that you can't shoot long exposures of moving people, but people slow down at night and in formal situations and reflexively hold still for a photo as well.

Finally the f/2.0 will be compelling to some people.

Also we've been talking image quality and lens spec, but don't forget size is important to many, and price is important to all. Doing away with retrofocus on wide-angles makes for sharper lenses, but also smaller lenses, and also cheaper lenses. Any EF SLR would be a little smaller AND cheaper without the mirror box, etc.

that’s assuming the lenses are better, the 24-105 is essentially identical between EF and RF.
The R+RF 24-105 is enough smaller than a 5D+24-105 MkII that it will be compelling for some, such as smaller (female) travel shooters.

(I never traded up my 24-105 MkI on grounds of size, actually, and the RF is substantially sharper than the similarly-sized MkI.)

they’ve explicitly stated that both systems will continue to be developed in parallel for some time to come.
Sure, I'd say the same in their shoes. If they think like I do, they're 90% sure that "some time to come" might turn out to be more like three years, but further recognize they may be misreading the market and don't want to say anything that precludes selling SLRs for another 15.

On the balance, all of these little improvements may add up to an advantage for the RF-based system, but seem unlikely to be a massive driver of MILC adoption among pros.
1) for some high-end customers, I bet there's going to be some advantage in the RF lens line or R autofocus that compels them to switch. Something that's a theoretically-nice-to-have for you or me will be enough by itself to seal the deal for some. 2) as you sketch out, some buyers won't feel compelled but instead see just a large number of small improvements as being enough to change. 3) with groups 1 and 2 moving, what keeps Canon churning out EF kit to keep the remainder happy? There are ten RF lenses (and apparently two more not announced specifically) in a time period with not a single EF. RF lens designs (except telephotos) and full-sensor AF features (face recognition, etc.) simply cannot be rolled out for the SLRs. A few years of that is going to be a reason to move as well.

(I haven't said this clearly but I see the SLR support going on for a decade or more, with perhaps just 1-2 models, a little like the pellicle mirror Canons did, as a special version for nature shooters and diehards. And the coming glut of EF glass on Ebay will make low prices which will make EF SLRs attractive to budget-minded shooters who still want newer camera features going forward.)
 

SwissFrank

EOS RP
Dec 9, 2018
260
98
Sometimes it's hard to imagine that the camera consumer community aren't the most brazen, and feckless people in the world. It's almost as though they are always telling us how bad the engineers are doing based on their personal knowledge of what's possible in technology advancements. There is a sense that they are always more knowledgeable than the camera brand manufacturers are, because there's always shortfalls in the designs that they are producing.
Yeah I saw that a lot in like the 2000s, when every time Canon released a non-IS lens, every single review would be forehead-slapping, OMG why didn't Canon think to make this IS? As if Canon would forget that IS was even possible, and it's something you could bolt on to anything as simply as putting feet on the focusing scale.

(The answer clearly is that on many lenses it'd be impossible, or make the lens twice the weight and/or size and impossible to sell.)


Sometime these brands are competing with themselves, such as the video capabilities being dumbed down so that the consumer is forced to buy a product in the dedicated video camera line instead of having those capabilities in the DSLR line. Everyone knows (they would make you think), beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these manufacturers are holding back certain features to make these devices more competitive in their own line of products.
This too is surely happening at times. As a lifelong software engineer I just cannot see a reason the R lacks two memory slots or a larger battery, other than they're dumbing it down a bit to make room above for a "pro" model with higher margin.
 

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,194
141
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
Just a user comment about DSLR vs. mirrorless - amateur, very critical in IQ, seeing cameras as a tool:

While ordering an M50 I was very sceptical if mirrorless is close to usability with dirty electronic viewfinders compared to these crisp optical VFs.

After 2 hours I was shure that a good EVF outperforms a standard OVF in terms of usability/flexibility.
  • I like exposure preview which helps especially in night shots.
  • I like to use the Technicolor Picture Style which is very flat. If you see blown out areas they are
blown out w/o interpreting histograms etc.!
  • Flexibly configurable information overlay in the VF.
  • CHOOSING AF POINTS ACCORDING TO MY NEEDS LEAVING THE CENTER AREA MOST OF THE TIMES.
  • PRECISE AND ACCURATE AF.
  • SAME WITH POOR MANS SUPERTELE (5.6 400) WITH 2x TC (f/11 AF, slow but dead on !!!).
  • 100% IMAGE FIELD JUST IN CHEAPEST CAMERAS
  • QUICK REPLAY OF LAST IMAGE SHOT IN EVF (good for those 50+ y.o. people with reduced close focus range)
The dowsides of EVF, lower brightness in bright sunlight and the larger power draw of mirrorless cameras will be reduced by brighter OLED displays and larger batteries. And if I have to pimp my M50 with a battery grip taking two 3000 mAh round 18650 cells by designing and printing one :)

On the neutral side: In my experience a "mediocre" viewfinder image is helpful to create better images - the flat Technocolor Picture Style helps because images seem to be flat, a little bit hazy. You have to get the right composition and light to bring the viewfinder image to life - a very good viewfinder image might make you lazy.

For me - despite I like optical and mechanical systems a lot - the DSLR is dead. My next cameras will be EVF/mirrorless cameras. Except ... Canon will make a combo system using a DSLR - EVF hybrid viewfinder: SLR = optical or mirror up and than OVR. Or they use a semitransparent mirror while using the sensor for AF avoiding alignment problems between PD AF sensor array and imaging sensor by using DPAF sensor :)
 

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,194
141
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
It's going to take much more than a sensor's performance to get me to switch to something other than Canon. I can't be the only one who also values environmental toughness, battery life+ inter body compatibility, menu system(HUGE factor) ergonomics and most important ,lens selection. I fiddled with Nikon, Oly and Panasonic, only to sell it off with not nearly the resale value of Canon gear. I hold Sonys and just cannot fathom them becoming an extension of my hand like a 5D series body. I'm good.
You are not the only one! While using "underdog cameras" just these are reliable, support photographic basic principles and a good lens selection.
Just used the now "old" EF 100 mm USM Macro on my M50 and it performs very very well. Not only optically but ergonomically while the combo is looking strange, maybe ugly.
 

koenkooi

EOS RP
Feb 25, 2015
262
126
You are not the only one! While using "underdog cameras" just these are reliable, support photographic basic principles and a good lens selection.
Just used the now "old" EF 100 mm USM Macro on my M50 and it performs very very well. Not only optically but ergonomically while the combo is looking strange, maybe ugly.
I liked the EF-S 60mm better on an M camera. For me it balanced better and the autofocus seemed to work better. The downside is that it's an EF-S lens, so it's pretty useless on my RP.
 

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,194
141
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
I liked the EF-S 60mm better on an M camera. For me it balanced better and the autofocus seemed to work better. The downside is that it's an EF-S lens, so it's pretty useless on my RP.
I own the EF-S 60mm too but having the great EF-M 32 with its close focus abilities the EF 100 is a better "real" tele option if you want to use just two lenses. Maybe the AF of the EF-S is a little bit faster because it has to move only ~25% of the mass compared to the EF 100 (0.6^^3).
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
:ROFLMAO: Let me take a stab at one sided rhetoric...
how about you try that again without quoting me out of context. and btw, lensrentals found the engineering and weathersealing,etc of the Sony 400mm G just as good as the new Canon 400mm III.

Sony's making great strides, and there's no way canon could (or should) try to complete with Sony Electronics (note, I stated Sony electronics, not sony imaging). whether they can catch up may become a bigger issue in the future.