Not to be mean... but how does this person/group get work?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chisox2335

EOS RP
Mar 6, 2014
242
0
jdramirez said:
I didn't want to be sugar and honey in my email and a complete asshat on here. So I kept the tone. Though I could entirely see how getting an email like that out of the blue would be... Let's just say a different experience.

JClark said:
jdramirez said:
Here is a copy of the email I sent.

Michael,

I'm a local photographer with some proficient skills. Last night I came across your advertisement for wedding photography on Craigslist (in the photography gear section). I perused your images/catalog with the link provided and I wasn't impressed.

My initial response wasn't how could you sell these services, but rather who would look at these sample images and as a consequence, desire to hire you. I realize the wording is quite harsh, but I don't write to be mean. Rather I write to explain that I linked the images on a forum for discussion.

I saw technically lacking in the images in regards to framing, lighting, focusing, etc. The consensus of many was that there are many offerings available and your services may be at the low end of the marketplace.

I won't hide that I have been a vocal critic of the sample images. Some in the thread thought it was not fair to criticize the work presented without allowing you the opportunity to voice a counter argument.

The link has since been redacted as root folders lead to personal information which need not be disseminated. If you would like to participate in this frank and admittedly uncomplementary discussion, we would welcome your voice and perspective.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=25994.0

-Joe D.
That's just... wow. I really can't imagine my reaction if some random stranger sent me that, unsolicited, for apparently no reason whatsoever. Jeebus.
My first feeling was....well this just got awkward haha
 

jdramirez

EOS 5D MK IV
May 31, 2011
2,944
0
42
Anonymity on the interwebs is a growing plague in our society. If you have a stand, it doesn't matter the vector in which it is conveyed. Have the gumption to stand behind it, but the flexibility to change if the counter argument warrants it.

PureClassA said:
Wow. Well I tip my hat to your being honest enough in owning your position to this this guy in an open invitation. Don't see that too often these days.

Obviously I've made it clear previously (as have others) I agree with you. It's not some random Joe posting iphone pics on facebook. If he's actually advertising himself as someone for hire, he is by definition a professional, albeit perhaps not a very good one. He has opened himself fairly to critique, just as any of us have who have our real identities/websites visible on our CR profiles.

I know I'm not near the best thing out there, but I also know I wouldn't post nothing but a bunch of generically shot pictures I could have taken with my wife's $150 Fuji Point & Shoot and call it my "sample of work".

If you're going to hold yourself out for hire in such an artistic and technical business, you should have enough sense to try and learn SOMETHING about your trade before getting to this point.
 

JClark

EOS T7i
Aug 4, 2013
64
0
jdramirez said:
Anonymity on the interwebs is a growing plague in our society. If you have a stand, it doesn't matter the vector in which it is conveyed. Have the gumption to stand behind it, but the flexibility to change if the counter argument warrants it.
Sorry - couldn't disagree more. As much as anonymity (or perhaps lack of appreciable accountability) certainly does plague interactions on the Internet, the corollary of "I'm not rude - I just tell it how it *really* is" is just as pernicious, and sadly, less and less confined to online interactions. And in this case, the guy that put his work out there already has accountability to the marketplace. If his work is bad, and his marketing is bad, it won't sell. Problem solved.

Dropping a stranger a random, aggressive and insulting email is bad enough. To claim that you are doing some sort of a service, or that you have a duty of some sort to take a stand against what is, in your opinion, poor work, is self-justifying nonsense.

Finally, while the way in which it's conveyed absolutely matters. Or at least it does if your true desire is to assist the recipient to become a better photographer/technician/businessperson. If that's truly your goal, then there's nothing to be served by taking such an aggressive initial stance that, more likely than not, will simply alienate the person on the other end of the conversation.

But I don't really think that was your goal.
 

JClark

EOS T7i
Aug 4, 2013
64
0
Chisox2335 said:
jdramirez said:
I didn't want to be sugar and honey in my email and a complete asshat on here. So I kept the tone. Though I could entirely see how getting an email like that out of the blue would be... Let's just say a different experience.

JClark said:
jdramirez said:
Here is a copy of the email I sent.

Michael,

I'm a local photographer with some proficient skills. Last night I came across your advertisement for wedding photography on Craigslist (in the photography gear section). I perused your images/catalog with the link provided and I wasn't impressed.

My initial response wasn't how could you sell these services, but rather who would look at these sample images and as a consequence, desire to hire you. I realize the wording is quite harsh, but I don't write to be mean. Rather I write to explain that I linked the images on a forum for discussion.

I saw technically lacking in the images in regards to framing, lighting, focusing, etc. The consensus of many was that there are many offerings available and your services may be at the low end of the marketplace.

I won't hide that I have been a vocal critic of the sample images. Some in the thread thought it was not fair to criticize the work presented without allowing you the opportunity to voice a counter argument.

The link has since been redacted as root folders lead to personal information which need not be disseminated. If you would like to participate in this frank and admittedly uncomplementary discussion, we would welcome your voice and perspective.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=25994.0

-Joe D.
That's just... wow. I really can't imagine my reaction if some random stranger sent me that, unsolicited, for apparently no reason whatsoever. Jeebus.
My first feeling was....well this just got awkward haha
Ya think? :)
 

RLPhoto

Gear doesn't matter, Just a Matter of Convenience.
Mar 27, 2012
3,778
0
San Antonio, TX
www.Ramonlperez.com
jdramirez said:
Here is a copy of the email I sent.

Michael,

I'm a local photographer with some proficient skills. Last night I came across your advertisement for wedding photography on Craigslist (in the photography gear section). I perused your images/catalog with the link provided and I wasn't impressed.

My initial response wasn't how could you sell these services, but rather who would look at these sample images and as a consequence, desire to hire you. I realize the wording is quite harsh, but I don't write to be mean. Rather I write to explain that I linked the images on a forum for discussion.

I saw technically lacking in the images in regards to framing, lighting, focusing, etc. The consensus of many was that there are many offerings available and your services may be at the low end of the marketplace.

I won't hide that I have been a vocal critic of the sample images. Some in the thread thought it was not fair to criticize the work presented without allowing you the opportunity to voice a counter argument.

The link has since been redacted as root folders lead to personal information which need not be disseminated. If you would like to participate in this frank and admittedly uncomplementary discussion, we would welcome your voice and perspective.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=25994.0

-Joe D.
Wow. More power to you I suppose. :eek:
 

jdramirez

EOS 5D MK IV
May 31, 2011
2,944
0
42
I wouldn't call this a tenet of my very being... But I took a position and I'm willing to keep it unless there is sufficient reason for me to move from said opinion/position.

You are right... I don't have any altruistic desire to help the guy be a better photographer, though having this discussion behind his back does have a certain ring of sophomoric caddiness. If people think he should have the opportunity to defend his work, I don't disagree. Maybe these images are old and his current catalog is excellent. Maybe he charges $20 and a piece of cake because he feels that every wedding, regardless of how meager the means, should be documented. I don't know until I hear.



JClark said:
jdramirez said:
Anonymity on the interwebs is a growing plague in our society. If you have a stand, it doesn't matter the vector in which it is conveyed. Have the gumption to stand behind it, but the flexibility to change if the counter argument warrants it.
Sorry - couldn't disagree more. As much as anonymity (or perhaps lack of appreciable accountability) certainly does plague interactions on the Internet, the corollary of "I'm not rude - I just tell it how it *really* is" is just as pernicious, and sadly, less and less confined to online interactions. And in this case, the guy that put his work out there already has accountability to the marketplace. If his work is bad, and his marketing is bad, it won't sell. Problem solved.

Dropping a stranger a random, aggressive and insulting email is bad enough. To claim that you are doing some sort of a service, or that you have a duty of some sort to take a stand against what is, in your opinion, poor work, is self-justifying nonsense.

Finally, while the way in which it's conveyed absolutely matters. Or at least it does if your true desire is to assist the recipient to become a better photographer/technician/businessperson. If that's truly your goal, then there's nothing to be served by taking such an aggressive initial stance that, more likely than not, will simply alienate the person on the other end of the conversation.

But I don't really think that was your goal.
 
Aug 23, 2013
2,300
21
Bahia Brazil
;)
jdramirez said:
You are right... I don't have any altruistic desire to help the guy be a better photographer, though having this discussion behind his back does have a certain ring of sophomoric caddiness. If people think he should have the opportunity to defend his work, I don't disagree. Maybe these images are old and his current catalog is excellent. Maybe he charges $20 and a piece of cake because he feels that every wedding, regardless of how meager the means, should be documented. I don't know until I hear.
JClark said:
jdramirez said:
Anonymity on the interwebs is a growing plague in our society. If you have a stand, it doesn't matter the vector in which it is conveyed. Have the gumption to stand behind it, but the flexibility to change if the counter argument warrants it.
Sorry - couldn't disagree more. As much as anonymity (or perhaps lack of appreciable accountability) certainly does plague interactions on the Internet, the corollary of "I'm not rude - I just tell it how it *really* is" is just as pernicious, and sadly, less and less confined to online interactions. And in this case, the guy that put his work out there already has accountability to the marketplace. If his work is bad, and his marketing is bad, it won't sell. Problem solved.
Believe. I know some "photographers" who do weddings through a payment $ 20 and a piece of cake. The next day, they deliver a CD with JPEG photos and run away.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
jdramirez said:
You are right... I don't have any altruistic desire to help the guy be a better photographer, though having this discussion behind his back does have a certain ring
Maybe he'll read this thread without participating. Those who do feel some bit of altruism could offer gentle constructive/instructive feedback on a few of his images in-thread, or post the title of your favorite book on event photography.
 

jdramirez

EOS 5D MK IV
May 31, 2011
2,944
0
42
I should clarify... It isn't that I don't help people... I really like mentoring new photog, but I generally don't offer unsolicited advice... Oddly enough, I'm willing to throw someone so far under the bus they are hitting the sewer system. I'm joking of course, I usually don't offer criticism... Unless I'm being snarky. Huh.

Orangutan said:
jdramirez said:
You are right... I don't have any altruistic desire to help the guy be a better photographer, though having this discussion behind his back does have a certain ring
Maybe he'll read this thread without participating. Those who do feel some bit of altruism could offer gentle constructive/instructive feedback on a few of his images in-thread, or post the title of your favorite book on event photography.
 

PureClassA

Canon since age 5. The A1
Aug 15, 2014
1,611
181
Mandeville, LA
Shields-Photography.com
(Ok, to the mystery photographer who receives a rather unnerving email today....)

So far as offering advice of a technical nature, that strobe needs to be bounced or other wise diffused. That is a basic photography no-no of firing a hot shoe mounted strobe nakedly at the subject (especially a person at those ranges). What you get are those sorts of shots this post originated with. Harsh, flat, heavy shadow cast light.

Granted there are some situation where you may have little other option or perhaps it's being used VERY lightly as a fill flash in an otherwise decently lit environment (or even daylight).

I do NOT do weddings. I just don't have the time needed to constantly dedicate to such intricate events throughout the year. I have a very good friend and true Pro I refer to. That said, the ONE wedding I have done (for a good friend because they really wanted me to do it) had a reception in a very dimly lit banquet hall with about a 9ft white acoustic tile drop ceiling. The Camera was a 6D with a $75 Yongnuo 560 III strobe on the hotshoe. Full manual. Lens was the Sigma 35 ART. First shot was f4 (accidentally a stop too shallow. I wasn't paying attention). The second shot of the bride was at f2.The flash is at a high angle, bouncing almost entirely off the ceiling, with the pull-out diffuser panel over the strobe. Both at ISO 400 and 1/125sec. There. Particulars out of the way, we can discuss the results.

Few if any harsh shadows. Nice soft, relatively even light. It's not the best in the world, but I grabbed the first two I could find. The wedding itself was outdoors and therefore not applicable. Oh.... and white balance. If shooting jpg, for pete's sake make sure you set a Flash White Balance. But preferably, shoot in RAW. Don't ask the camera and flash to guess the settings. Learn to control them yourself manually if you want things to look good.

This is a very basic need-to-know, proper use of a strobe for anyone that is going to present themselves as professional. I would suggest you not use the pictures you linked as samples....EVER. Take the time to learn the craft before asking people for money. Same goes for any profession or business. Read this forum. Lots of good info here and plenty of genuine masters of the trade to help you.
 

Attachments

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
Since this seems to really be a thread involving people giving unsolicited advice/opinions, I'll offer mine:

When someone says "not to be mean" they are about to be very mean – this is no exception.

This group attack on someone who never asked to be critiqued strikes me as the sort of "mean girl" behavior I would expect of junior high students, not adults.

Pretending to do this under the guise of offering constructive criticism is very transparent, since the individual never asked for anyone's advice and I'm not sure what qualifies anyone on this forum to offer that criticism (actually, I think the photographers on this forum most capable of offering constructive criticism are not the ones who feel the need so strongly to do so on this thread).

As an aside, I personally would take 1,000 of these posed, straight-on-flash-on-the-camera shots any day over one of the annoying "aren't-we-cute-and-funny-doing-gangsta-poses-in-our-$5,000-wedding-dresses" poses that seem to be so popular among wedding photographers today. (And yes, I fully intend to be mean.)

Finally, I'm a little p.o.'d that the O.P. has unilaterally elected to involve the entire Canon Rumors community in his antics. If the victim of this internet gang bang does happen to read this thread, I wish to state that the behavior of a handful of people should not be construed as representative of the entire Canon Rumors community.
 

jdramirez

EOS 5D MK IV
May 31, 2011
2,944
0
42
It sure as heck does... it's in the Geneva Convention. Now that is out of the way...

There is probably an underlieing current of frustration from talented individuals who are trying to make a living out of doing this... I'm not one of them... but I take umbrage to those selling subpar services. Even more so, I find it hard to believe that there is a market willing to pay for the services... but I have already covered that.

I'm sure I'm being churlish... I do that from time to time. But I think there are plenty of circumstances where we as a community call shenanigans on something that is not what it claims to be. Saying one has 20+ years of experience and having an end product as demonstrated... well... there is an incongruity of both logic and belief.

And for me at least... I don't think i was every offering constructive criticism... it was just 200 proof criticism. Potent... knock you on your ass and wake up with D!(k$ drawn on your face potent.

So there's that.

unfocused said:
Since this seems to really be a thread involving people giving unsolicited advice/opinions, I'll offer mine:

When someone says "not to be mean" they are about to be very mean – this is no exception.

This group attack on someone who never asked to be critiqued strikes me as the sort of "mean girl" behavior I would expect of junior high students, not adults.

Pretending to do this under the guise of offering constructive criticism is very transparent, since the individual never asked for anyone's advice and I'm not sure what qualifies anyone on this forum to offer that criticism (actually, I think the photographers on this forum most capable of offering constructive criticism are not the ones who feel the need so strongly to do so on this thread).

As an aside, I personally would take 1,000 of these posed, straight-on-flash-on-the-camera shots any day over one of the annoying "aren't-we-cute-and-funny-doing-gangsta-poses-in-our-$5,000-wedding-dresses" poses that seem to be so popular among wedding photographers today. (And yes, I fully intend to be mean.)

Finally, I'm a little p.o.'d that the O.P. has unilaterally elected to involve the entire Canon Rumors community in his antics. If the victim of this internet gang bang does happen to read this thread, I wish to state that the behavior of a handful of people should not be construed as representative of the entire Canon Rumors community.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
unfocused said:
This group attack on someone who never asked to be critiqued
While I generally agree with the sentiment that people should be left to live their lives in peace, in the Internet age the very act of posting to a public portfolio and soliciting business can reasonably be construed as an invitation to critique. He hung out a shingle, the public is entitled to comment on it. If this were a personal photo site for the use of his friends and family I'd say we should keep our comments to ourselves.

That being said, I believe critique should be gentle and constructive unless the person is doing real harm. I've not seen the web site, but I find it hard to believe that a photo portfolio could meet that standard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.