Patent: 83mp full-frame image sensor from Canon

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,298
205
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
If that 83 MPixel beast has a switch between full 83 MPix and the quarter of it, 20.7 MPix I am interested. ~21 MPixel is a good resolution for a lot of things. And it should provide very clean images due to the 1:1 mapping of the four R-G-B-G-Pixels into one final image pixel including good DR. No bayer decoding might make it a very fast format during viewing/postprocessing.

In some situations the full potential of this High Res sensor might be useful so I would accept giantic files and long processing time with ease. EDIT: And it would be interesting for use with EF-S lenses with very good res - thinking of 10-22 which is far from perfect but good enough for my ultrawide requirements.

Only thing I do not understand: Why not 3840 x 3 pixels wide for 4k material with no crop but 3x3 pixel binning. Or do they use crop in the size of super 35 with 2x2 pixel binning which would make sense.
 
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canonnews

EOS RP
Dec 27, 2017
344
296
Canada
www.canonnews.com
Point taken but I usually travel to do landscapes and I wouldn't consider any single card slot camera acceptable for travel unless it can direct write to media through a port. Even if I'd never had a card failure, which I have, one copy of a file while traveling just doesn't work for me. Yes I could bring along a laptop or back-up gizmo but a second card slot takes up a lot less room in my bag and I can carry a copy of all my files in a card safe in my pocket. Less stress about what's going on back at the hotel with my gear which means I can relax and focus on tasks at hand.
any modern Canon allows you to backup a full sized jpeg to your phone, and thus to the cloud.
dual card slots won't save you if someone steals your camera/robs you.
 

boiseblake

I'm New Here
Feb 27, 2015
9
9
Why would dual cards slots have any importance for a landscape shooter? This dual card slot meme is comical, it's like some kind of mass delusional hysteria foist upon us by marketing departments and 'influencers'.
Aside from the above response (yes, I too have had cards fail) having dual card slots can be useful for high res (high file size) so you can keep shooting without having to swap cards in inclement weather. Granted you won't have back up in that circumstance but having the ability is nice.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,814
3,322
The equation you use for system resolution is an inaccurate one - see http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html
The important point in all of the formulas, however, is that the overall resolution of the system always contains components from both the resolution of the lens and and the sensor (and any other component, importantly diffraction is one of them). The overall resolution is never completely independent of the resolution of the sensor or resolution of the lens. But, that doesn't mean that the lens cannot outresolve the sensor or vice versa within the equation for the overall resolution.. A lens can have a higher resolution than a lens and vice versa.: see https://luminous-landscape.com/do-sensors-out-resolve-lenses/
 
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Sharlin

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 26, 2015
1,066
579
Turku, Finland
Didn't you, yourself, say a tripod would be necessary for such a camera doing landscapes? I don't know what your use case is, but I know mine like the back of my hand. My work is all hand held and models are often moving, not static. Flash is not always an option.
It was not me who said that. I was just curious, since naively it seems to me that in general, when shooting moving subjects (or indeed even living subjects trying to stay still) without flash you need a fast shutter speed anyway.
 
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Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,653
468
Germany
(...no snark intended...)

Please enlighten...what are the downsides of more pixels?
There were some answers already but I haven't read one argument yet (maybe missed it):
Diffraction limit!
The more MP on the same area the smaller the pixels are.
the smaller they are, the closer they come to the wave lenght(s) of light, the less an aperture stop down can bring you an increase in resolution.
But as the resolution is increased by the number of pixels, maybe that's irrelevant to some ;)
 

criscokkat

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2017
287
248
Madison, WI
It was not me who said that. I was just curious, since naively it seems to me that in general, when shooting moving subjects (or indeed even living subjects trying to stay still) without flash you need a fast shutter speed anyway.
I expect the High rez R and maybe the 1dxiii to have ibis. I'll be surprised if the R mount didn't, with the lack of IS on the flagship 2.0 lens. We've seen the patents for several years now, and have had verification that they are going to add it in the future. Its by far the most logical choice. It's also very logical that it wasn't put on the current aps-c versions of this chip if it is the same, as the mount communication with the lens seems like it might be critical for maximum performance. I'm wondering if their implementation will use microfocus adjustments as well to counter z axis shifts.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,552
771
I pulled up the patent and skimmed thru it. What the patent is about is a very complex method for improving the accuracy of DPAF. It involves changes in af accuracy when a subject color changes.

The effect is small. But, if we get into a high mp sensor where the dual pixels are spaced closely, we need more accurate focusing to get the full benefit of the higher pixel density. Thus, the more complex design. There are two ways given to accomplish the improvement which involves different pixel configurations.

This patent may very well be incorporated in the new 32mp APS-C sensor, and in a upcoming FF 83 MP sensor, but its about improving the AF accuracy.

"According to the present invention, it is possible to provide an imaging device in which a change in focus detection accuracy due to a color of a subject or a color shading is reduced. "

This is a more complicated version of the patent claims which discusses how its accomplished.

"
[Patent Claims]
[Claim 1]
An imaging element includes a plurality of imaging pixels on an imaging surface.
The imaging pixel
A plurality of divided photoelectric conversion parts for performing focus adjustment by the pupil division phase difference system ;
A lens for guiding light to the photoelectric conversion part ;
An internal lens arranged on the lens and the photoelectric conversion unit for the imaging pixel and arranged eccentrically toward the center of the imaging element group with respect to the center of the imaging pixel as it moves away from the center of the imaging element group, and focuses the incident light on the imaging pixel ;
A color filter for limiting a wavelength band of light guided to the photoelectric conversion part ;
It is an imaging pixel which **,
The first imaging pixel comprises a first color filter representing a first wavelength band and a first internal lens having a first eccentricity.
The 2 imaging pixel includes a 2 color filter which represents a 2 wavelength band longer than the first wavelength band, and a 2 internal lens which has a 2 eccentricity of which the first eccentricity is large.
The image sensor characterized by things.
[Claim 2]
An imaging element includes a plurality of imaging pixels on an imaging surface.
The imaging pixel
A plurality of divided photoelectric conversion parts for performing focus adjustment by the pupil division phase difference system ;
A lens for guiding light to the photoelectric conversion part ;
A color filter for limiting a wavelength band of light guided to the photoelectric conversion part ;
It is an imaging pixel which **,
A first imaging pixel ;
A first color filter expressing a first wavelength band and an internal lens between the lens and the plurality of divided photoelectric conversion parts are provided.
A 2 imaging pixel is provided with a 2 color filter which represents a 2 wavelength band longer than a first wavelength band and an internal lens between the lens and the plurality of divided photoelectric conversion sections.
The image sensor characterized by things. "
 
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mpb001

EOS T7i
Sep 10, 2016
75
60
I shoot with a 5DIV and I’m very happy with it. I would be more interested in a R Series camera in the 30-46 MP range with IBIS. As one person said, to get the most out of a system with 80 MP, you need the fast RF lenses and a really good tripod. At a time when many photographers, especially ones who travel are looking for lighter gear, I think that this high res system will benefit studio photographers the most and some landscape photographers. I am actually quite interested in the M6 II. If the DR is decent, I may go that route.
 

keithcooper

EOS 7D MK II
Anything is possible but I’d still prefer a solid tripod if I was after the best that 80MP could deliver along with the reassurance I’d have no issues once I’d packed up and gone home.
Sometimes I work in industrial environments where a tripod simply isn't an option - sure, I might like one, but getting the shot's what counts. 'Best' is an ill defined term for myself...

That and I've always regarded habitual use of tripods in landscape photography as a relic of the 19th century ;-) [YMMV ;-) ]
 
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AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,814
3,322
I shoot with a 5DIV and I’m very happy with it. I would be more interested in a R Series camera in the 30-46 MP range with IBIS. As one person said, to get the most out of a system with 80 MP, you need the fast RF lenses and a really good tripod. At a time when many photographers, especially ones who travel are looking for lighter gear, I think that this high res system will benefit studio photographers the most and some landscape photographers. I am actually quite interested in the M6 II. If the DR is decent, I may go that route.
It will also benefit bird photographers who are squeezing out every drop of resolution. We use shutter speeds of 1/3000s or faster for birds in flight and a tripod isn't required for that, and f/4 lenses are available. Also, for lighter travel, we can use shorter lenses than with lower resolution sensors.
 

criscokkat

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2017
287
248
Madison, WI
It will also benefit bird photographers who are squeezing out every drop of resolution. We use shutter speeds of 1/3000s or faster for birds in flight and a tripod isn't required for that, and f/4 lenses are available. Also, for lighter travel, we can use shorter lenses than with lower resolution sensors.
Sometime in the next 20 years the average photographer will take one frame from a short video and refocus it/change the aperture using some future version of photoshop, lightroom or other software. Everything will be shot at f/16 or something ridiculous and all bokeh will be simulated. The google pixel and iPhones already do a limited version of this. What will be disturbing is that if every photo is essentially a deeply photoshopped version of a real scene, how would you ever spot deep fakes? [insert bad photo edit sleuthing scene from the judge dredd movie here]
 

Graphic.Artifacts

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 1, 2017
465
270
any modern Canon allows you to backup a full sized jpeg to your phone, and thus to the cloud.
dual card slots won't save you if someone steals your camera/robs you.
Why would I keep my back-up with the camera? I keep a copy of every raw image on a card in a card safe in a secure location on my person at all times. I've been doing this for decades. I have a pretty good idea of what my requirements are. If your requirements are met by a single card slot that's up to you. Mine are not.
 
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RayValdez360

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2012
431
187
any modern Canon allows you to backup a full sized jpeg to your phone, and thus to the cloud.
dual card slots won't save you if someone steals your camera/robs you.
it helps you can drop the camera and run. still have the photos in your pocket
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,814
3,322
Sometime in the next 20 years the average photographer will take one frame from a short video and refocus it/change the aperture using some future version of photoshop, lightroom or other software. Everything will be shot at f/16 or something ridiculous and all bokeh will be simulated. The google pixel and iPhones already do a limited version of this. What will be disturbing is that if every photo is essentially a deeply photoshopped version of a real scene, how would you ever spot deep fakes? [insert bad photo edit sleuthing scene from the judge dredd movie here]
Art Morris in his birdsasart blog a few days ago showed how he had improved an image of a bird on a beach using PS to remove darker pebbles and other tricks and move a piece of greenery from close to he bird to further away to improve the composition!
 

Graphic.Artifacts

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 1, 2017
465
270
Why would I keep my back-up with the camera? I keep a copy of every raw image on a card in a card safe in a secure location on my person at all times. I've been doing this for decades. I have a pretty good idea of what my requirements are. If your requirements are met by a single card slot that's up to you. Mine are not.
edit....this site has become increasing about telling long time investors in Canon's system that they really don't need something if Canon latest gizmo doesn't have it. That's a pretty odd way to look at the world IMO.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
4,166
1,740
Irving, Texas
So you hand hold at a higher ISO (and shutter speed) to avoid (your) motion blur and subject movement?
My goal is to keep ISO at 100 as much as possible. If I do bump it up, I try not to go above ISO 400. Sometimes my composition must be adjusted quickly and I may not be able to get completely stationary enough to get a shake free shot. Like I said, my use may be different from yours. Were I to get an 80 megapixel camera for this kind of work, I would find IBIS to be very useful just like I do with my Olympus. IBIS and IS is not a solution for subject movement. So again, why do you buy IS lenses if you are rock steady? If you are trying to suggest that IBIS would not be useful, though you buy IS lenses, I think the point of what I think you are trying to say is just B.S. Why do you buy IS lenses? I can answer that for you, because nobody can always be rock steady at slow shutter speeds.. I shot several images this past weekend with a shutter speed of 1/60th of a second at ISO 100 @ f/1.2 and a 6 stop ND filter as the sun was going down and shining straight into the camera. Ibis would have helped a great deal. I've been published twice, so I am getting fairly decent at what I do. You wouldn't balk at at lens with IS, so what is the problem with in camera image stabilization?

By the way, last November I did two model boot camps where the outdoor temps were below freezing. Being from Texas I don't have cold weather clothing. There was a whole lotta shakin' going on. ;)
 
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Bahrd

Red herrings...
Jun 30, 2013
42
16
any modern Canon allows you to backup a full sized jpeg to your phone, and thus to the cloud.
dual card slots won't save you if someone steals your camera/robs you.
What's more probable? A camera robbery or a card failure?