Patent: Canon EF-M 10mm f/2.8 Fisheye

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
btw: "no upgrade path" In form of "buying and using FF lenses on crop sensor cameras" is not important any longer in reality.
Hi 4 fun!

My question from above still stays unanswered yet. Although you've found the time to post here.

So I would still be interested why you think that an upgrade path is "not important any longer". Why?

And the same for this question:
What do you think will be Canons future product for birders, wildlifers and sports prosumers and all others that do not have the money to go fully FF with big whites but also want the speed and reach you can get today with a 7D2 and EF 100-400II or EF400/5.6?
 

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
i am neither Siri nor Alexa, so I don't have to answer every question, right? Go, ask Canon! :)

However, i exapect a "flagship" EOS M model (M5 successor) with a somewhat larger body/grip, top notch AF and fps, higher capacity battery and decent wheathersealing. a "mirrorfree 7D III". still smaller and less expensive than a FF EOS R. and if a few birders want to use it with tele lenses, no problem. EF 100-400 II will work just fine. no slapping mirror needed.

and birders with more budget will buy a FF EOS R model and use a 600/4 or whatever big white EF on it, until upcoming lighter, more compact RF DO tele lenses are launched.

people able to afford long white tele FF-glass should also be able to buy a FF camera, right?

Those who want it smaller and less expensive and (still) believe a crop sensor would give them a "reach advantage" (compared to cropping a high MP FF image), will go for EOS M and be happy with it.

also: a few EF-M lenses are no big investment. if you want to go FF later on, you just sell them or put them in a drawer and forget them.

so what "upgrade path" from EF-M lenses to RF would anyone need?
 
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Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
i am neither Siri nor Alexa, so I don't have to answer every question, right? Go, ask Canon!
No! I am asking you!
Because it wansn't the statement of Canon but YOURS!

An EF 100-400 II will only do fine as long as Canon is not letting EF die. But exactly that was your prediction.
So, please, tell me what Canon will do in your future as you can foresee everything so well.
And even if it is just your wish or dream, please tell me if you have dreamt of this either.
If not, you're dreaming a dream of fools, because you - once again - don't think of business.
And leaving such an interesting and well selling piece of market alone would be really foolish.

I was trying to give you a good chance to well spread your ideas of what Canon will or should do.
I wasn't offensive nor cynical nor fanboyish. I was just interested in your ideas.
But if you answer like you do now then I am sorry for you because it shows that you are not interested in real discussions but just to spread your limited and narrow point of view not caring about the whole picture but just about what you're interested in and everything else is not present for you.

Now I am sorry - indeed. For you!
 

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
it is not only "my humble opinion". Canon managers have said so very clearly in a recent interview re. EOS R and APS-C: it ain't going to happen, because it is not possible to make it small enough (due to size of R mount) and even more importantly: it does not make any sense.

No need to feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for Canon, if anything. :)

PS: any EF lens will keep working indefinitely ... also on EF-M and R-mount .. with any one of the 4 adapters.
 

flip314

EOS 80D
Sep 26, 2018
122
124
it is not only "my humble opinion". Canon managers have said so very clearly in a recent interview re. EOS R and APS-C: it ain't going to happen, because it is not possible to make it small enough (due to size of R mount) and even more importantly: it does not make any sense.

No need to feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for Canon, if anything. :)

PS: any EF lens will keep working indefinitely ... also on EF-M and R-mount .. with any one of the 4 adapters.
I suggest you go back and read that interview (and not some of the misleading news articles that read too much into it). What they clearly said was that EOS R was not going to replace EOS M. They haven't made any definitive statements on APS-C R bodies.

I can't imagine why they would make a 7D series camera out of EOS M. Firstly, the clear benefit of EOS M is its size, which is NOT something everyone wants from mirrorless, and definitely NOT what the 7D is targeted to. Secondly, I don't think they want to lose the 7D market by forcing all the people who would otherwise buy it to chose EOS M (and lose compatibility with the fancy new RF lenses that Canon wants to sell) or force them up to the 1DX series (probably out of their price range).

I guarantee that canon wants to sell RF lenses more than they want to sell EOS M lenses. The way you do that is to convince as many people as possible to buy EOS R bodies. Canon may phase out EF-S lenses so they can push the 80D crowd to EOS M (I'm not even convinced of this), but they would just be leaving money on the table by pushing 7D users to EOS M.
 
Reactions: Maximilian

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
I can't imagine why they would make a 7D series camera out of EOS M.
Well, and I can't imagine why Canon would want to stick a puny little APS-C crop sensor into their R range with perfectly designed for FF image circle R mount. It would be totally wasteful ... casting pearls before the swine, really. Does not make any sense at all.
Especially when EF-M mount parameters are perfectly well chosen for mirrorfree APS-C.
Canon had 2 mounts in the past DSLR-era: EF (exclusively FF) and EF-S (exclusively APS-C).

And they are going with 2 mounts for mirrorfree:
* EOS M ... exclusively APS-C.
* EOS R ... exclusively FF.

Plain to see and obvious. Choose one or the other. Or both. Anything else is delusional/wishful thinking by some 7D owners. :)
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
Plain to see and obvious. Choose one or the other. Or both. Anything else is delusional/wishful thinking by some 7D owners.
Or purely twisting arguments as long as they fit to your perspective only. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

flip314 said it also that the interview was interpreted - maybe in a wrong way. But other articles - esp. here at canonrumors.com - have stated that it could be interpreted in different ways as well.
So feel free to see the plain and obvious in your individual narrowed perspective.
Feel free to state something but not answering questions that show that your line of argument is not the only possibility in the world.

I am out of this discussion, because if you are ignoring the different facts/interpretations of your own arguments then there is no reason to argue with you any more.
 

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
any "different" interpretation of the "no APS-C in EOS R" interview statement is nothing but wishful thinking largely the very same same people who seriously thought Canon would bring mirrorfree Ff cameras with EF mount. Totally delusional. o_O:D
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
Okay, as you still seem to prefer twisting facts I am not out of this yet.
...any "different" interpretation of the "no APS-C in EOS R" interview statement...
Please show me the site where this has been differently translated.
I posted a APS-C rumor where canonrumors.com quoted this interview as
Asked about EOS M and EOS R and how they fit in the Canon lineup (Google translated):
That’s right. Since EOS R is a full-size system, it can not be downsized to EOS M size. EOS M has a role/existence value as an APS-C system.
They also directly showed, that your interpretation of that quote is wrong
While I think he’s saying that EOS M will always be an APS-C system, the EOS R form factor will not be shrunk. That doesn’t mean we won’t see an APS-C EOS R body. If we’re going to get a mirrorless replacement for the EOS 7D series, it will have to be in the EOS R form factor purely for ergonomics, build quality and usability.
Who is delusional now?
 

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
That’s right. Since EOS R is a full-size system,
now, how much clearer can a statement be? EOS R is FF.
Anybody who interprets it as "EOS R currently is FF, but may well also be APS-C in the future" is ... wrong. Because then the Canon guy would likely have added something along the lines of "but we don't rule out anything, including APS-C sensor in the future". He did not. Quite the opposite, he explained, why it would make no sense at all:
because it can not be downsized to EOS M size.
Any "alternative interpretation" is totally delusional.

APS-C in EOS R is not needed. It does not make any sense. For APS-C sensors Canon has the excellent EOS M series ... small, good and relatively inexpensive - everything a crop system should be. If it is bigger or more expensive it better be FF.

It is almost inconceivable to me, how some people have difficulty understanding this absolutely clear statement and the absolutely clear logic behind it.
 
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Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
Absolutely delusional now! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I off here and leave this thread again to those who prefer talking about fisheyes.
 
Reactions: tron

eosuser1234

EOS 80D
Jul 16, 2013
137
18
Japan.
I have a Rokinon fish eye for my eos M5, and an 8-15mm fisheye for my 7dm2 and 6D. The 8-15mm fisheye on the M5 is really unbalanced. I hope a 7dm3 replacement is available in a M version. The current M cameras focusing in low light is so bad, let alone, the shutter has a huge delay in releasing in dark environments when a flash is attached.
 

nchoh

EOS 80D
Apr 3, 2018
198
103
Calgary
For those who cannot break it down...

A - [Since EOS R is a full-size system,]
B- [ it can not be downsized to EOS M size.]


A - here EOS R is being referred to as the system.
B- here EOS M is being referred to as the body.

It's a bit confusing but basically it means that the R cameras can never be as small as the M cameras, which doesn't preclude them from having APS-C sensors... because the throat and the flange distance of the R system is bigger than the M system, so (to be pedantic) the EOS R system can not be downsized to EOS M body size, (even though it can have an APS-C sensor.)
 

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
... which doesn't preclude them from having APS-C sensors...
exactly that's the delusional/wishful/imagined part NOT included in the interview.

The Canon guy said: "EOS R is an FF system."
And he says: R-mount too big for APS-C cameras, we got M for that.

At least to me the meaning is clear: EOS R = FF all the way, exclusively. EOS M = APS-C, all the way, exclusively.
 

nchoh

EOS 80D
Apr 3, 2018
198
103
Calgary
For those who cannot break it down...

A - [Since EOS R is a full-size system,]
B- [ it can not be downsized to EOS M size.]


A - here EOS R is being referred to as the system.
B- here EOS M is being referred to as the body.

It's a bit confusing but basically it means that the R cameras can never be as small as the M cameras, which doesn't preclude them from having APS-C sensors... because the throat and the flange distance of the R system is bigger than the M system, so (to be pedantic) the EOS R system can not be downsized to EOS M body size, (even though it can have an APS-C sensor.)
exactly that's the delusional/wishful/imagined part NOT included in the interview.

The Canon guy said: "EOS R is an FF system."
And he says: R-mount too big for APS-C cameras, we got M for that.

At least to me the meaning is clear: EOS R = FF all the way, exclusively. EOS M = APS-C, all the way, exclusively.

No. In the article that has been quoted, the quote is;
"Since EOS R is a full-size system, it can not be downsized to EOS M size "

Article is linked below for reference;
https://www.canonrumors.com/another-interview-about-the-eos-r-and-talk-of-an-aps-c-eos-r-body/
 
Reactions: Maximilian

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
OMG. "full-size" = "full frame" sensor, what else.

see same google translation of multiple occurences of the term in the very interview:
(About full size mirrorless camera)
- Another thing about EOS M. In the impression at the recital, I felt that EOS M will continue and strengthen in the future.
That's right. Since EOS R is a full-size system, it can not be downsized to EOS M size. EOS M has a role / existence value as an APS - C system.
Although it has already deployed the EOS M series featuring small size and light weight as a mirrorless camera, it was a piece lacking "full size mirrorless camera" in the lineup.
The bots at Google are simply not yet smart enough to translate "full size" in context of cameras/imaging sensors as "full frame".

Really amazing, how hard some people try to read the exact opposite into an entirely clear statement.
 
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Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
OMG. ... Really amazing, how hard some people try to read the exact opposite into an entirely clear statement.
OMG??? o_O
Did you ever look into the mirror after such an ingenuous statement?
If not, try it out - especially try it while thinking if somebody could have understood something (some statement, some interview) better than you actually did.
Enjoy the result :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
2,446
245
Germany
No. In the article that has been quoted, the quote is;
"Since EOS R is a full-size system, it can not be downsized to EOS M size "

Article is linked below for reference;
https://www.canonrumors.com/another-interview-about-the-eos-r-and-talk-of-an-aps-c-eos-r-body/
Thanks, nchoh , for trying to second me but as 4fun was not willing or able to read the interview as you, me, canonrumors and others did it will not help to post that link again.
I tried so before in post #14 but it didn't get through.
 

4fun

picture? perfect!
Nov 19, 2018
181
53
OMG??? o_O
Did you ever look into the mirror after such an ingenuous statement?
If not, try it out - especially try it while thinking if somebody could have understood something (some statement, some interview) better than you actually did.
Enjoy the result :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Even after looking in the mirror I cannot detect any trace of ambiguity in the (translated) interview. It is as clear as day that the Canon guy is saying EOS R = FF. EOS M = APS-C.

True, he does not add: "exclusively". But it is not necessary to understand his statement. Unless someone really tries hard to mis-understand it to mean what they wish for. BIG chunky body with crop sensor inside and R mount up front for little money along with an equally good and affordable Canon RF 150-600/3.5-5.6 IS lens and a few equally good and inexpensive shorter "RF-S" crop zooms. "Just like EF-S back in the day". But ... it ain't gonna happen.
 
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