Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
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London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
ahsanford said:
rrcphoto said:
this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.
Sure, but the odds of Canon opening their mirrorless history books with a salvo including an f/2.8 UWA zoom seems awfully low.

Surely -- if the thin mount is chosen -- the opening battery of glass will be a combination of staple tools and things that would show off the smaller form factor:

35 f/slow
50 f/quick but not screamingly quick
24-something f/slow

...and so on. If Canon goes thin, I see them pointing squarely at an EF adaptor for the first few years for anyone asking for the f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes.
Check out the diagram in the patent. Connected onto a mirrorless body it's going to be small! A huge difference to the 16-35 on an adaptor. Remember, Canon aren't competing with themselves here. They're competing with Nikon and Sony. And to do so they have to innovate, so I think you're wrong about what lenses they'll launch with the lens.

They are competing with lenses such as the FE 16-35 2.8GM, and this new design seems to be squarely aimed at that. I wonder if the limitation to 30mm max is a way of either ensuring quality or reducing weight within the design.

I think a 24-70 2.8 or something approximating the range, is highly likely. Probably also an f/4 kit lens version.
 

Steve Balcombe

Too much gear
Aug 1, 2014
164
29
ahsanford said:
* Possibly make a full EF mount yet somehow allow some mirrorless-only lenses to nestle/telescope into the body where the mirror used to be (this is rather unlikely but a pretty neat idea)
Basically the same solution as EF-S, just another variation. Very neat as it totally avoids the need for an adapter.

I'm sure it would be no problem to piggy-back a more modern communications protocol onto the EF mount, or add two or three new pins which are out of reach of EF lenses.
 

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
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Steve Balcombe said:
Basically the same solution as EF-S, just another variation. Very neat as it totally avoids the need for an adapter.

I'm sure it would be no problem to piggy-back a more modern communications protocol onto the EF mount, or add two or three new pins which are out of reach of EF lenses.
I think it's highly unlikely now the new mirrorless camera will have an EF mount. That doesn't mean Canon won't produce mirrorless cameras with EF mount in the future, I'm sure they will. But I don't think that's what is coming next.

With the EF-S mount Canon had a solution that allows the use of the standard EF lenses on the crop bodies, so that when upgrading to full frame you can at least take some of your glass with you.

For that and many other reasons I think we're going to see the EF-M mount on the new camera, with full-frame EF-M lenses being useable on crop EOS-M cameras too. So, the EF-MF (or whatever they call it) mount will take both EF-M and EF-MF lenses, albeit with EF-M lenses having to run on a cropped mode.
 
The owner of the local camera store has seen the "Mirrorless 5D" in the wild. It can use both current EF glass, via adapter and there will be new mirrorless lenses like the EF-M. Flange size could not be ascertained before the "Mirrorless 5D" was placed into a camera bag and out of view. The EOS M5 flange/sensor/throat diameter is too small for full frame. The contact pin arrangement is in the "way" of the light path of full frame. Plan on being able to adapt Leica M glass to new FF Canon's. All EF glass will fit on the new body, via adapter. I'll bet the curved sensor patents are going to go with the new short distance lens designs, in the new "Mirrorless 5D".
 

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
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London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
JRWPIX said:
The EOS M5 flange/sensor/throat diameter is too small for full frame. The contact pin arrangement is in the "way" of the light path of full frame.
Not sure where this comes from, but check out the photo of the M5 compared to the A7RII. The mounts, including contact pin arrangement, are almost identical. The EF-M mount was *clearly* designed from the start to be able to deal with full-frame sensors.

JRWPIX said:
All EF glass will fit on the new body, via adapter. I'll bet the curved sensor patents are going to go with the new short distance lens designs, in the new "Mirrorless 5D".
No, that won't happen. Unless the sensor is going to be adjustable between curved and flat (which isn't impossible, but isn't easy) there is no way these two things can coexist. Either you have a flat sensor, or you lose compatibility with existing EF glass.
 

Attachments

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
993
209
jolyonralph said:
ahsanford said:
rrcphoto said:
this is the ONLY patent application that has been found to be specifically for a short registration distance stills camera, and really - the only sign of it.
Sure, but the odds of Canon opening their mirrorless history books with a salvo including an f/2.8 UWA zoom seems awfully low.

Surely -- if the thin mount is chosen -- the opening battery of glass will be a combination of staple tools and things that would show off the smaller form factor:

35 f/slow
50 f/quick but not screamingly quick
24-something f/slow

...and so on. If Canon goes thin, I see them pointing squarely at an EF adaptor for the first few years for anyone asking for the f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes.
Check out the diagram in the patent. Connected onto a mirrorless body it's going to be small! A huge difference to the 16-35 on an adaptor. Remember, Canon aren't competing with themselves here. They're competing with Nikon and Sony. And to do so they have to innovate, so I think you're wrong about what lenses they'll launch with the lens.

They are competing with lenses such as the FE 16-35 2.8GM, and this new design seems to be squarely aimed at that. I wonder if the limitation to 30mm max is a way of either ensuring quality or reducing weight within the design.

I think a 24-70 2.8 or something approximating the range, is highly likely. Probably also an f/4 kit lens version.
If Canon is aggressive in introducing a FF mirrorless with a new mount, some small high quality zooms would seem to be a very important piece of the puzzle. Primes alone would't be enough. Wonder how big the new 70-200's will be, although they will be EF. At those focal lengths a new short flange distance mount wouldn't help make it any smaller or lighter. A telescoping design would though, or variable aperture.
 

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,477
103
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.
 

zim

EOR R
Oct 18, 2011
1,863
53
takesome1 said:
.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.
;D ;D ;D

and I'm watching Spider-Man! you just can't make coincidences like that up amazing :eek:
 

mb66energy

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 18, 2011
1,207
141
Germany
www.MichaelBockhorst.de
takesome1 said:
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.
I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs :)

16-30mm patent: good to see Canon pull advantages out of the missing mirror by using optimized lens designs!
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,052
317
Vancouver, BC
mb66energy said:
takesome1 said:
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.
I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs :)

16-30mm patent: good to see Canon pull advantages out of the missing mirror by using optimized lens designs!
I think that DSLRs aren't dead until there is are orders of magnitude leaps in battery technology.

There will always be a demand for a recording device where you can peer down a scope and not consume power. What if you're an investigator and you're taking a few dozen photos, but watching a location continuously for days? What if you're taking time lapses over a long period of time?

And as far as EVFs have come, they have a long, long way to go before they are indistinguishable from what one sees of light bent through glass.

I don't think that large, professional cameras are dead, period. There is no magic voodoo to make 1-4kg+ lenses fit in your pocket, and that means that until someone invents tricorders, there will always be a demand for a camera body that is appropriately sized and ergonomically designed for large telephoto lenses.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,307
569
Don Haines said:
Antono Refa said:
The Fat Fish said:
Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.
Not every patent turns into a lens.
It seems like every week there are one or more lens patents.... it has to be less than ten percent of them that result in a lens being made.
However, patents for a product like a mirrorless camera point to someone at Canon approving spending for R&D to develop a mirrorless system, that should be cause for discussion. Those who approve R&D budgets put money where they believe it will do some good. When it gets to the point of developing lenses and adapters, even giving dimensions for the mount, its a strong hint.
 

pj1974

EOS 7D MK II
Oct 18, 2011
592
53
Adelaide, Australia
Talys said:
mb66energy said:
takesome1 said:
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.
I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs :)

{Snip}
I think that DSLRs aren't dead until there is are orders of magnitude leaps in battery technology.

There will always be a demand for a recording device where you can peer down a scope and not consume power. What if you're an investigator and you're taking a few dozen photos, but watching a location continuously for days? What if you're taking time lapses over a long period of time?

And as far as EVFs have come, they have a long, long way to go before they are indistinguishable from what one sees of light bent through glass.

{Snip}
I agree, that there is a place for both DSLR and mirrorless.
Summary reasons: minimal battery usage & where the sensor is not exposed continually during 'preview'.
Quality of EVFs is improving, and in some situations are as good (or even better) than OVFs, but in other situations / scenarios, the OVF is superior. For sports, I believe DSLRs will continue to reign for some time.

I like the live view of modern Canon DSLRs, (especially those with DPAF)... it is like having most of the advantages of mirrorless and DSLR together in 1 body!

PJ

PS - good trick / idea to suck up spiders or breadcrumbs from a keyboard!
 

csibra

I'm New Here
Jul 21, 2017
18
12
Hungary
Canon Rumors said:
<p>A patent for an optical formula showing a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
<ul>
<li>Image height: 21.64mm</li>
</ul>
21.64mm height will be not enough for fullframe sensor height.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
Mt Spokane Photography said:
No, there have been several patents that were FF mirrorless related over the past few years, lenses, including a EF- new lens mount converter. We know what the news lens mount will likely look like, assuming that Canon decides to go with it, which looks likely.
would you mind stating the lens mount parameters you are referring to and/or provide link please? Must have missed it - or forgotten already. :)
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,052
317
Vancouver, BC
I don't know why there is so much speculation about EFM being full frame.

It's not going to happen. Based on what Canon has publically said on that DPR interview and what the person(s) told CR guy, it's something clever/elegant/imaginative (I forget the words used). There is absolutely nothing clever about an EFM to EF adapter, whether it's full frame or not, because, I mean, those already exist.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
993
209
csibra said:
Canon Rumors said:
<p>A patent for an optical formula showing a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
<ul>
<li>Image height: 21.64mm</li>
</ul>
21.64mm height will be not enough for fullframe sensor height.
I believe that the image height is the radius of the image circle not the diameter. A 24x36 image will fit within an image circle of 21.64mm.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,964
498
BillB said:
I believe that the image height is the radius of the image circle not the diameter. A 24x36 image will fit within an image circle of 21.64mm.
[Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]

- A
 

jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
1,076
281
49
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
ahsanford said:
[Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]
When the mount size and electrical contact positioning of the EF-M mount is almost *identical* to the Sony FE mount I can't see why we still have doubters. Well, I suppose in a world of Flat Earthers etc I shouldn't be that surprised. But the evidence is right there in front of your eyes. EF-M is full-frame capable. It was designed to be so, just as the Sony E/FE mount was.