Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Should

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

godefroyr said:
Canon is behind in terms of DR and this is no more acceptable
less than 1EV difference between the D850 and the 5D Mark IV is no longer acceptable? it's really to the point of practicality a non-issue.

canon has other deficiencies it needs to solve more.
 

The Fat Fish

VFX Artist
Jul 29, 2017
89
54
26
Exeter, UK
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Spot on. I saved up in preparation for the 6DII and now there's no way I'd get one. I also don't think the 5DIV is worth the money costing as much as the D850 and A7RIII. Where does this leave me? Not buying Canon.

I am one consumer but I won't be alone in this.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,228
417
Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

AdjustedInCamera said:
I question if they actually know the enthusiast market. Again recently we saw 'Canon asks professionals what they want in a mirrorless camera'. Canon always seem to ask the professionals, who obvs. know their stuff, but I question if they are actually more likely to buy it versus the enthusiast.
I think that the responses to each Canon release highlights this. Almost every model, the release of the specifications results in 'unexciting' or 'what, no xxxxxxx'. But when people buy it they almost always (bar the 6D2 which was more contentious) say 'not much technologically new but a much better tool and so much fun to use'.
Pros rarely chase the spec sheets - what they want is a camera that makes them want to use it and streamlines the way they work and each Canon model seems to do this and gets a solid following. And at the lower end of the market, the new camera buyer wants to buy a camera 'like the professional uses - the ones I see at the Olympics and Uncle Bill's wedding'. The average user does not read sites like this.

I think things are changing, though. Trial-by-social-media is filled with self-opinionated nobodies who vary from out-and-out trolls to people who know squat about what is being discussed and they drown out the thoughtful considered comments from people worth listening to. And for that reason alone Canon need to start adding a few goodies to their next couple of releases.
 

RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
2,816
35
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Canon needs to stop dumbing down their proconsumer bodies. Nikon but their best AF in both the D5 and D500. Can crippled the 7D M2 (compared to the 1Dx / 1Dx M2).

Same for FPS.

Canon is afraid that the 7D M2 will eat their lunch (i.e., cannablize the 1Dx) but it seems that Nikon is doing that instead. I hear more about people switching from Canon to Nikon (granted there are more Canon photographers) today than I did in the best.

For a while Canon had a lead but after the problems with the 1D Mark III they became too conservative.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,228
417
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

The Fat Fish said:
Spot on. I saved up in preparation for the 6DII and now there's no way I'd get one. I also don't think the 5DIV is worth the money costing as much as the D850 and A7RIII. Where does this leave me? Not buying Canon.

I am one consumer but I won't be alone in this.
Fair enough. But out of interest, what feature of the D850 and A7r3 will enable you to take better pictures or make your photography easier.
I really like the look of the D850 as a general tool and would, if I were buying afresh, offer a strong alternative for my Canon gear. But for the things I take it will not really do much the 5D4 cannot - at the ISOs I often use for wildlife, the sensor gives no better image quality. The AF tracking is limited by me, not the camera. And the Canon has an excellent range of lenses. The only thing I might find useful is the in-built focus stacking.

I think it is easy to see a camera as 'better spec' and spend heaps on it only to find out it does not actually affect day-to-day activity that much at all, after spending hundreds (if not thousands) on making the switch.
 

slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
3,211
731
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Innovated Yes, most Innovated, No. Most dependable, by far.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

RGF said:
Canon is afraid that the 7D M2 will eat their lunch (i.e., cannablize the 1Dx)
this is a common theory, yet kind of unproven.

for the 7D Mark II or even the 5D Mark IV to have 1DX AF it would actually require 3 DIGIC chips in a much smaller body.

there could very well be good reasons for not placing 1 series AF on other cameras.

versus the hyperbolic theory that they do it to protect the 1 series. protect the 1 series against what?
 

aceflibble

EOS RP
May 8, 2015
296
62
Innovation? Hell no.

But when it comes to lenses they're still often the best overall, and though the bodies are outclassed in many ways, they're still good enough to keep up with most industries and applications.

This is why I have multiple systems. My Fujis are for fun stuff. Phase for absolute top digital quality. Canon as the workhorse. If I were buying all-new today, I'd probably go to Nikon or Sony (probably Sony, because Nikon's grip shapes cramp my hands), but as it stands, switching everything over would cost too much to be worth it for what little I'd gain, especially as it'd mean giving up a few key lenses in addition to the sheer monetary cost.

I don't think anybody would dispute that Sony and Nikon are leagues ahead of Canon in terms of sheer technology, but there's more to working photography than just having the latest function or the broadest dynamic range. It'd sure be nice if Canon would come up with fresher ideas to match the others, but they don't need to as long as they at least maintain a practical system with very good pro support and service.

Fact is, right now every system offers something the others don't, and none of them are bad. It's basically impossible now to buy a dud body or an under-performing lens. Some systems give you more cutting-edge functions, but those same systems are also the ones with the more lacking fundamentals. Some systems may only give you the basics, but they do so at a very high quality and/or backed up with better service.
 

Jack Jian

I'm New Here
Feb 14, 2018
20
21
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

godefroyr said:
Canon is behind in terms of DR and this is no more acceptable, even if their DSLR camera are excellent compromises...
While it'll be appreciated to have better DR as other's do, it's a nonsense to say "is behind in terms of DR and this is no more acceptable". Everytime I see people say they need more DR, I took it as "I am a very very poor photographer who don't know what I am doing." The only time when I need a high dynamic range is only when I shoot a sun backlit portrait without a flash.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,619
2,105
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

alienman said:
It seems like the “I switched from canon to _____” confessions are tallying up day by day.
[stentorian referee voice] In this corner, wearing the black-and-white colors of truth and weighing in at 130 million points, we have Facts and Data. And in this corner, wearing the iridescent color of inconsistency and weighing in at some undefined amount of fluff, we have Anecdotes and Opinion. Let the bout begin!

The thing is...Canon has gained market share over the past few years. Don't let reality knock you on your ass with a hard uppercut.
 

Isaacheus

EOS RP
Jun 22, 2017
208
16
New Zealand
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Mikehit said:
The Fat Fish said:
Spot on. I saved up in preparation for the 6DII and now there's no way I'd get one. I also don't think the 5DIV is worth the money costing as much as the D850 and A7RIII. Where does this leave me? Not buying Canon.

I am one consumer but I won't be alone in this.
Fair enough. But out of interest, what feature of the D850 and A7r3 will enable you to take better pictures or make your photography easier.
I really like the look of the D850 as a general tool and would, if I were buying afresh, offer a strong alternative for my Canon gear. But for the things I take it will not really do much the 5D4 cannot - at the ISOs I often use for wildlife, the sensor gives no better image quality. The AF tracking is limited by me, not the camera. And the Canon has an excellent range of lenses. The only thing I might find useful is the in-built focus stacking.

I think it is easy to see a camera as 'better spec' and spend heaps on it only to find out it does not actually affect day-to-day activity that much at all, after spending hundreds (if not thousands) on making the switch.
Not who you were replying to but was in the same position :went with the sony a7r3 instead of a 6dmk2 and a new lens or the 5dmk4 on its own.

There are a few things both the canon's meant I'd compromise on, where the sony had fewer and smaller ones.

1080 120fps
FF 4k - I understand the 6dmk2 not having this in full frame but the 5dmk4 felt behind for it

Tilting screen for landscape - this may be the biggest one, the dynamic range of the 6dmk2 really threw me off it, having the dynamic range of the first 6d limit a few of my timelapses meant there was no point trying. The 5dmk4 would have worked if the screen was there. Some compositions are far harder to monitor without the screen for timelapse

Peaking and zebras for landscapes, just makes things easier, not a major on its own but it's hard to go back now

USB charging

Ibis is nice, being able to use primes for handheld video is very useful. Something I really can't do on the Canon 6d or 5dmk3. I assume the same for the newer ones too

There are a few others, but you get the idea. The canons are decent reliable cameras, but there are things they just cannot shoot compared to other options in class.
 

docsmith

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 17, 2010
869
249
Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Hesbehindyou said:
Here's the problem:

Canon responds to the needs of, and builds products differentiated for, two groups: professionals and consumers.

We are enthusiasts. Canon does not respond to our desires - we're too small a market.
I almost completely agree with this and love the direction you are going. But I would further subdivide as Canon does make camera's for enthusiasts. The enthusiast market is great. I would argue that a lot of enthusiasts own 80D's, 7DII's, 6DII's, 5DIV's, and even 1DX's.

The subset of people that are obsessed with what they do not have in their Canon camera vs what they do have is more about personality type than about markets. I deal with people that want more every day. It is really interesting, as they rarely consider the broader benefit and costs. They just want. They want and are convinced that any level of benefit is worth the cost (horrible business model, BTW). Once they have "X" they will want "Y." They are not technically wrong (usually) in that there is benefit to "X" and would be benefit from "Y", but these people are never pleased. It is a bit funny, because, at least those that I work with, they are not in positions of accountability. The rubber never really hits the road in their positions. Those that are, usually tend to be more strategic about what they want...but I digress.....

Overall, the two mindsets are both correct:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Things are always changing and it is rare to survive if you do not evolve
[*]It is foolish to not slow down and enjoy the benefits of your past efforts
[/list]

These two mindsets are not mutually exclusive, matter of fact, IMO, the balance of the two is critical. Slow and steady does win the race. It may annoy some people, but it is true more often than not.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,619
2,105
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Isaacheus said:
The canons are decent reliable cameras, but there are things they just cannot shoot compared to other options in class.
There is a very important distinction between 'things they just cannot shoot' and 'things I just cannot shoot with them'.

I'm not saying the former is never true, but for the most part when people state the former, what they really mean is the latter. This was Keith's point earlier in the thread.
 

CafferyPhoto

Commercial photog
I've been with Canon EOS since the 20D (T90 before that). I've been more than happy because of the automatic sensor cleaning, great low light AF and the great lenses. The big beef I have with them are things like only supplying the 500mb/s 4K on the 5DIV. I would own two of these beasts if they produced usable (smaller) 4K footage, but for now I have to wait until they finally decide to give the humans fire from Mount Olympus. I don't have room or need for more than two bodies - but what I need is two cameras with dual memory card slots, usable 4K video, and not huge bodies.

I need a main body and a backup body, both serving as 4K cameras for video work. I need simplicity.

If the 6D had two SD slots I would be all over that thing! C'mon Canon, I'm not getting any younger; at least release a firmware update for the 5DIV so we can have smaller 4K files.
 

IglooEater

EOS 6D MK II
Nov 15, 2014
904
0
Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Isaacheus said:
Getting the popcorn out for this comment section
Me too.
I read the post and I’m like, “seriously? We need a thread for this?”

On a side note, if the 5D IV is not majorly more advanced than the 5D II, Nikon’s improvements in the D850 over the D800 are even more dismal during a similar timeslot. I don’t think this is a Canon problem so msuch as an industry wide problem.
Oh, and for Sony mirrorless, they’re only starting to be products even worthy of being released, so what might be seen as innovation towards great products to some looked to others more like trying to fix under-engineered beta products.
 

docsmith

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 17, 2010
869
249
Re: Poll Added: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

Mikehit said:
The Fat Fish said:
Spot on. I saved up in preparation for the 6DII and now there's no way I'd get one. I also don't think the 5DIV is worth the money costing as much as the D850 and A7RIII. Where does this leave me? Not buying Canon.

I am one consumer but I won't be alone in this.
Fair enough. But out of interest, what feature of the D850 and A7r3 will enable you to take better pictures or make your photography easier.
Yeah, so Dustin's review, one's better in some areas, one's better in others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_WPjtjuMGk

The comparisons I've seen are all calling them ballparkish equal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=PgdNEAZ29Vg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlRRt7hbryY

So...Canon MUST EVOLVE.....yet are basically equal to the others..... ::)
 

FramerMCB

Canon 40D & 7D
Sep 9, 2014
391
82
52
Re: Here's Why Canon Doesn't Need to Innovate, But it Does.

keithcooper said:
Some innovation yes, but in general I broadly agree with the FS article.

Unfortunately, I'm minded to consider that many of the noise making whingers should probably pay far more attention to their basic photography skills ;-)

The whole 'lack of innovation' thing is largely driven by people who prefer to look to a tech fix, or simply 'buy their way' to better photos.

Much as with modern printers and people's 'print quality', the most significant areas for personal improvement in photography are usually not technically limited.

That's not to say we shouldn't welcome advances, just not use any perceived lack as cover for our own ineptitude ;-)
Amen!

A+.
 
Apr 20, 2015
6
0
Perception is reality! This is a lesson that Canon will begin to learn the hard way without innovation. I see many more videos and write-ups about Canon not being able to measure up to other manufacturers' innovation and this will begin to stick and impact their bottom line.
 
Feb 15, 2018
1
0
SoCal
Canon is behind, way behind. Any gig that I do that involves video simply cannot be done with a Canon camera. Period. Full stop. Their $5500 "flagship` camera tops out at 120fps in hd. How 2010 of them.... Sony here I come....