POLL? How many are preordering the EOS R?

Perhaps not, but the assertion that there is no great difference between them because you can not afford them certainly is.

You also, by extension, can’t afford a Gulfstream, but a jet is greatly different from a lens. So is a cinema camera.

A fundamental difference between the 28-70 and the products you mentioned is their markets. The latter (notwitstanding the Leica lens) will mostly be purchased by businesses, at whom they are aimed. Many businesses may buy 28-70/2 lenses (event photographers for example might be able to replace multiple primes with it), but a sizable portion of owners I expect will be enthusiasts.

It's not asinine to claim that objects that are priced beyond my means share one property: they are priced beyond my means to purchase them. I would buy a Red if I could afford it. But I have budget constraints. These budget constraints are objective facts. They refer to measurable properties that are valid for any rational person. These properties are also social facts. They, as such, can be described and explained by refering to the distribution of wealth in this society. A jet also belongs to the category, things SDZ cannon afford. A jet shares a property with the Red camera: I lack the means to buy it. It does not matter what distinguishes a jet from a camera. I'll buy neither.

If these considerations seem silly what talking about cameras and lenses, they are very difficult matters when one is forced to compare medicines and food, rent and clothes, etc. Marginal analysis can make clear why a $3,000 lens may be uneconomic for even a business when a $1,799 lens would be good enough.
 
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It's not asinine to claim that objects that are priced beyond my means share one property

Agreed. Where we part is the idea that things sharing a single property demonstrates that there is no great difference between them.

Marginal analysis can make clear why a $3,000 lens may be uneconomic for even a business when a $1,799 lens would be good enough.

Agreed again, though I don’t think most would consider a 100% increase marginal (comparing the $3k and $1.8k items). Also, they may consider the ability for one $3k item to stand reasonably in the place of multiple less expensive items (say f/1.4 primes, which are the same amount wider than f/2 as f/2 is than f/2.8, but are less flexible and for thus working photographers often necessitate dedicated camera bodies).
 
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It's not asinine to claim that objects that are priced beyond my means share one property: they are priced beyond my means to purchase them.
It's not reasonable to suggest that your personal threshold for affordability is relevant to anyone but you. You went to the trouble of looking up and actually linking products in a different league aimed at a different market, and then persisted in defending them as appropriate comparators not meaningfully different from the RF 28-70/2. That's where you crossed over into asinine commentary.
 
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well, i'd argue that "consumer products" with prices above national median (net) monthly income levels are beyond "affordable".

while in the past electrical household products such as stoves, washing machines, fridges etc where in that range, we are luckily beyond that thanks to sufficient global competition for these products. Today it is typicallly only cars in the "need a loan to buy" product category. at least in economically well developed countries.

imaging gear priced beyond 3000 USD/€ are pure "luxury goods" in the same category as luxury watches, jewellery, works of art, etc.

of course true fanbois (Canon or any other brand) will consider any price "justified" and even the most exotic product follies a "piece of art", be it a "normal fov" lens like a Z 58mm/0.95, a standard tele zoom like a "grandmaster" 70-200/2.8 or a "standard zoom" like a 28-70mm/2.0 or "middle-class" cameras with pedestrian specs priced at 2500 USD/€. in reality a manual focus 58/1.2 lens irca zeiss Otus are asinine "Ford Edsel" type products in late 2018.

all of those high priced imaging products are objectively outside the realm of being "affordable" to regular income earners in even the most affluent countries on this planet.

it is also an objective fact that the highly oligopolist nature of the imaging gear industry and their extremely "proprietary" technology and "anti competition business practices" are the main reason for those high prices. basically it is a state similar to the car industry up to the 1970s, before japanese (remember those early datsuns and hondas?) and later on korean manufacturers (remember those first, sorry little hyundai ponyies and see where Hyundai and Kia are today) broke the price regime of the US and European car makers oligopoly. up until then every last Buick or oldsmobile clunker and every sorry Fiat or Renault rust heap cost an inordinate amount of money and could still be sold to customers who had little or no choice.

regrettably the only joint/common standard initiative in the digital imaging gear market was and still is (Micro) Four Thirds ... unfortunately with a sensor too small to effectively compete. not oin gear size, not in performance, not in price. duh.

unfortunately nobody saw fit to join forced abd enter the market with a common, OPEN STANDARD mirrorfree FF-sensored system about 5 years ago, when the window of opportunity was wide open.

Had Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus, Sigma, Ricoh, Cosina, Samsung, Samyang, Leica - or just some of them - joined forces for a mirrorfree 36x24mm "FF" system back in 2012, instead of all trying their own proprietary systems with wrong sensor tech (sigma, Fuji) and/or too small imaging circle stuff, they could have broken the Canon/Nikon/Sony triopol and had a realistic chance to be the leading force in the market by today.

and all of us "non-fan boys" would have a choice of reasonable, non-exotic and affordable imaging gear along the lines of eg the new, compact, decent Samyang AF lenses - but without any compromises in functionality as a result of "reverse engineering" of proprietary tech which the triopol refuses to license.

as it stands, we can only hope for the next wave of disruptive technology to open a new window of opportunity. it will likely be the paradigm shift technology that finally frees us from large glass optics ... multi-camera/lightfield type computational imaging. Lytro and Light (L16) were "too weak, too little, too early", but it will happen, eventually.

unfortunately we are still a number of years away from that. meanwhile canon, nikon, sony can continue to offer exotic follies like f/0.95 lenses at 5k a pop or 28-70/2.0 zooms at 4k a pop ... INSTEAD OF "truly useful to many users" products like an up-to-date, decent IQ 50/1.4 IS lens priced at a reasonable, fair and affordable 399 usd or €.

so much for "affordable" and "imaging gear" market.
 
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well, i'd argue that "consumer products" with prices above national median (net) monthly income levels are beyond "affordable".

while in the past electrical household products such as stoves, washing machines, fridges etc where in that range, we are luckily beyond that thanks to sufficient global competition for these products. Today it is typicallly only cars in the "need a loan to buy" product category. at least in economically well developed countries.

imaging gear priced beyond 3000 USD/€ are pure "luxury goods" in the same category as luxury watches, jewellery, works of art, etc.

of course true fanbois (Canon or any other brand) will consider any price "justified" and even the most exotic product follies a "piece of art", be it a "normal fov" lens like a Z 58mm/0.95, a standard tele zoom like a "grandmaster" 70-200/2.8 or a "standard zoom" like a 28-70mm/2.0 or "middle-class" cameras with pedestrian specs priced at 2500 USD/€. in reality a manual focus 58/1.2 lens irca zeiss Otus are asinine "Ford Edsel" type products in late 2018.

all of those high priced imaging products are objectively outside the realm of being "affordable" to regular income earners in even the most affluent countries on this planet.

it is also an objective fact that the highly oligopolist nature of the imaging gear industry and their extremely "proprietary" technology and "anti competition business practices" are the main reason for those high prices. basically it is a state similar to the car industry up to the 1970s, before japanese (remember those early datsuns and hondas?) and later on korean manufacturers (remember those first, sorry little hyundai ponyies and see where Hyundai and Kia are today) broke the price regime of the US and European car makers oligopoly. up until then every last Buick or oldsmobile clunker and every sorry Fiat or Renault rust heap cost an inordinate amount of money and could still be sold to customers who had little or no choice.

regrettably the only joint/common standard initiative in the digital imaging gear market was and still is (Micro) Four Thirds ... unfortunately with a sensor too small to effectively compete. not oin gear size, not in performance, not in price. duh.

unfortunately nobody saw fit to join forced abd enter the market with a common, OPEN STANDARD mirrorfree FF-sensored system about 5 years ago, when the window of opportunity was wide open.

Had Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus, Sigma, Ricoh, Cosina, Samsung, Samyang, Leica - or just some of them - joined forces for a mirrorfree 36x24mm "FF" system back in 2012, instead of all trying their own proprietary systems with wrong sensor tech (sigma, Fuji) and/or too small imaging circle stuff, they could have broken the Canon/Nikon/Sony triopol and had a realistic chance to be the leading force in the market by today.

and all of us "non-fan boys" would have a choice of reasonable, non-exotic and affordable imaging gear along the lines of eg the new, compact, decent Samyang AF lenses - but without any compromises in functionality as a result of "reverse engineering" of proprietary tech which the triopol refuses to license.

as it stands, we can only hope for the next wave of disruptive technology to open a new window of opportunity. it will likely be the paradigm shift technology that finally frees us from large glass optics ... multi-camera/lightfield type computational imaging. Lytro and Light (L16) were "too weak, too little, too early", but it will happen, eventually.

unfortunately we are still a number of years away from that. meanwhile canon, nikon, sony can continue to offer exotic follies like f/0.95 lenses at 5k a pop or 28-70/2.0 zooms at 4k a pop ... INSTEAD OF "truly useful to many users" products like an up-to-date, decent IQ 50/1.4 IS lens priced at a reasonable, fair and affordable 399 usd or €.

so much for "affordable" and "imaging gear" market.

Really? why go FF? you have the rebel line if you want affordable, you have the M camera and lenses, if you want to buy Pro gear then you are not looking for affordable? you speak of home appliances, do you know how much a pro grade mixer is worth from a good brand? a pro stove? LG sells waching machines for 3k-4k and these aren't pro level
 
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Really? why go FF? you have the rebel line if you want affordable, you have the M camera and lenses, if you want to buy Pro gear then you are not looking for affordable? you speak of home appliances, do you know how much a pro grade mixer is worth from a good brand? a pro stove? LG sells waching machines for 3k-4k and these aren't pro level

i do NOT consider imaging gear as "pro", only because it has an FF sensor inside. :)

No acceptable reason, why a camera with pedestrian specs like EOS R [minus video recording st*ff] should not be available as low as 999,-
 
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i do NOT consider imaging gear as "pro", only because it has an FF sensor inside. :)

No acceptable reason, why a camera with pedestrian specs like EOS R [minus video recording st*ff] should not be available as low as 999,-

Thats your choice, you have cheaper options, if its about price , and they say the camera is only 5% of the photo
 
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Thats your choice, you have cheaper options, if its about price , and they say the camera is only 5% of the photo

No, i have no choice. I want a universally capable stills-only FF for little money. Plus a few matching, moderately fast lenses. "Pro" or not I don't care.
But ... I will "eventually" get pretty exactly what I want, because I am right in the middle of of the (relatively) largest imaging gear market niche: stills, enthusiast. :)
 
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docsmith

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If they expand it to 16-35 and 70-200 also f/2, I might bite on a body.
Yeah, combine this with Don's sentiment that for work, at times he needs all the light he can get, this is why there might be a large market for these lenses.

But as others have noted, it might not be a 70-200, so let's play with this. It would be nice if Canon released similar lenses with the same filter size (which they occasionally do), so if we reverse the general math on the 95 mm front filter of the 28-70 (that is a big boy), 95 x 2 = 180 mm. The 28-70 is a 2.5x zoom, if Canon repeated that, then we'd be looking at a 70-175 f/2. Final calc to ballpark the lens, but 200/2.8 = 71.4 mm. 71.4/77 = 92.7%. So reversing and applying the max focal length / max aperture = filter size calc, 95x2*92.7% = 176 mm.

I could see the tele being somewhere between 70-135 f/2 and 70-180 f/2, but, if I were to guess, I think we could be looking at a BIG 70-175 f/2. No complaints here. Weight would likely be an issue, but if they could control that, that would be one popular lens.
 
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No acceptable reason, why a camera with pedestrian specs like EOS R [minus video recording st*ff] should not be available as low as 999,-
No reason acceptable to you. You don't get to decide what is acceptable for anyone else. Obviously there are acceptable reasons to price it at $2300 for the many people who will buy it, and for Canon.

But don't stress about it, just wait a few years and I'm sure you can pick up a used EOS R for a price you'll find acceptable.
 
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No, i have no choice. I want a universally capable stills-only FF for little money.
Then it's a good thing you live in the AvTvM Universe where that's possible, because out here in reality, you'd be f*ck'd, dude! ;)

Edit: actually, I'm wrong on that. There are a crap ton of 'universally capable stills-only FF for little money' available...just go to eBay and search "film SLR". :p
 
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It's not reasonable to suggest that your personal threshold for affordability is relevant to anyone but you. You went to the trouble of looking up and actually linking products in a different league aimed at a different market, and then persisted in defending them as appropriate comparators not meaningfully different from the RF 28-70/2. That's where you crossed over into asinine commentary.

My personal threshold for affordability was merely an example. I could have written the whole passage from the perspective of the generalized other. I didn't because personalizing as I did gives the reasoning I used the weight of someone who has actually thought through the issue as a practical task. I crossed over no line putting me into asinine commentary.
 
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My personal threshold...
I crossed over no line putting me into asinine commentary.
Based on your personal threshold, no. Based on the thresholds of others on this forum, absolutely. Most people would likely not consider a $3K lens and an $80K cinema video camera to be a reasonable comparison.
 
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Agreed. Where we part is the idea that things sharing a single property demonstrates that there is no great difference between them.



Agreed again, though I don’t think most would consider a 100% increase marginal (comparing the $3k and $1.8k items). Also, they may consider the ability for one $3k item to stand reasonably in the place of multiple less expensive items (say f/1.4 primes, which are the same amount wider than f/2 as f/2 is than f/2.8, but are less flexible and for thus working photographers often necessitate dedicated camera bodies).

Marginal Concepts

The claim that an increase or decrease is marginal of a quantity or quality means that the increase or decrease of a quantity or quality moves a limit or constraint. It does not mean large or small.
 
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tron

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Then it's a good thing you live in the AvTvM Universe where that's possible, because out here in reality, you'd be f*ck'd, dude! ;)

Edit: actually, I'm wrong on that. There are a crap ton of 'universally capable stills-only FF for little money' available...just go to eBay and search "film SLR". :p
The answer at least a few months ago was a EOS 6D. B&H sold them for 999 and it was offering at the same time an SD card 64gb extreme pro and a portable 4TB WD my passport disk. That offer was then but now you can get it also for 999 but with less gift value. For the record I do not work in that shop I cannot even buy from that shop due to living in different continent. But the point is that there are cheap FF DSLRs that are very decent by the way. (Obviously this answer is not meant for neuro who doesn't need one more FF camera but for fullstop)
 
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Don Haines

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Yeah, combine this with Don's sentiment that for work, at times he needs all the light he can get, this is why there might be a large market for these lenses.

At work, it is a question of the right tool for the job.... Sometimes that tool is a FF camera and a fast lens, most of the time it is any Oly and 12-50 lens (very light weight and easily fits in tool bag), and sometimes a phone camera....

There is no such thing as "pro gear", a pro uses whatever the job requires....
 
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There is no such thing as "pro gear", a pro uses whatever the job requires....

I'm a "professional amateur", but I totally agree with your comment.

I if I was a pro I'm sure my kit would be a bit different, or even perhaps not. Just doing what I do (Landscape and nature stills mostly) as a hobby and for therapy ;) my kit may sound a bit overboard, but for the most part I use everything I have rather quite often. If I left most of my stuff at home I would be frustrated I didn't have a certain lens etc for a certain scene I found....I'm very used to my kit and 1 lens forgot at home would be noticed quickly out in the feild.

I mentioned in a previous post that I thought the RF 28-70 F2 was an over-priced novelty item; for me and what I do it is, but for others it may be the cats meow.

I'm sure if I had a EOS-R and that lens for a day to use I'd have a blast with it and love it. (and probably wish I had the money to buy it)......but, it's not needed in my kit and world of photography.
 
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