Ron Martinsen Blasts the 7DII in his review

[Don Haines]

Just as with the original 7d, the "advanced" Af produced an awful lot of oof images- for newbs and advanced users alike.

100 percent agreement. I'd even bet that the same held true for most 5D3 and 1DX owners. We are not just talking about changing the number of AF points here, we are introducing zones, tracking, acceleration, and more. This is an AF system that is 20 times as complex as that found in lesser cameras.... of course it will be harder to learn... and of course there will be a learning curve.

There is nothing advanced about setting the camera in manual point select, focusing, and clicking the shutter. NOTHING. Any default af setting should be able to accurately focus on the set point, or even when set to automatic point selection. Its not that difficult at all. Whats' difficult is when that most basic of camera functions doesnt work well. And just to clarify, Im talking about still subjects/persons/landscapes.

You could just leave it in single point mode, but then why did you buy the camera???? It is a good starting point and a confidence builder, but if someone bought the camera for it's advanced AF capabilities, they had better expect to take the time and effort to learn how to use it properly.

We are talking the difference between a family sedan and a race car. If you have only driven a family sedan and then get into a race car, you don't expect to keep with the field at an Indy race... You start off driving slow and easy.... you learn new skills, you learn how it handles, you get experience, and you get better and better. To expect anything else is irrational.... It is the same with a camera.

What can be advanced is setting up focal (not everyone has the space) or other afma software. Its a pain in the arse, and wastes valuable time.

Calibrating your equipment is NEVER a waste of time. Trying to take a sharp picture with a lens that needs a 10 point AFMA adjustment is a lesson in futility.

 

[scottkinfw]

This isn't the camera for me to begin with. I don't have a dog in this fight. That said, I don't see what he is complaining about. But then again, I don't have a 4K monitor. Then again, maybe that is his problem as I don't see the pics being displayed that way generally speaking, in the near future.

sek

 

[adhocphotographer]

Horses for courses.... If it fits your needs get it, if not... don't!

 

[AccipiterQ]

I was disappointed in the 7Dii when it came out (you can see my post history)....but I just have to ask....was this guy shooting in JPG??? I noticed he mentioned turning off noise reduction and letting canon's software do that after. Based on the reviews I don't think he shoots RAW, which is what a huge portion of the people using this for wildlife/sports photos would be doing.

 

[ashmadux]

Just as with the original 7d, the "advanced" Af produced an awful lot of oof images- for newbs and advanced users alike.

And yet, somehow – miracle upon miracle – my 7D managed to deliver a very high percentage of crisply focused shots with a diverse array of lenses in a wide variety of settings...and the keeper rate with my 1D X is even higher. So either I've had some Canon bodies with exceptionally good AF performance, or you've had some Canon bodies with some exceptionally poor AF performance. I'm not that lucky, so either you're unlucky and keep getting defective cameras (except that amazing T2i of yours), or one of us is doing something wrong that's leading to OOF shots. Except my shots are usually in focus.

Your rationale is a bit too basic.... There will be variation in cameras, thats not hard to figure out. And yep, there were MANY happy 7d users. I actually was one, for the first year. then the AF broke, and canon wasnt able to fix it after 4 attempts. I had to junk it, and trust me i loved that body. So yep, i was there with you, for a time. The sensor had its own issues, with on/off mosquito noise, which was confirmed by canon.

I can say that i am entirely NOT happy that my t2i is my workhorse. The 7d was it's replacement. And the 6d was....but its all about performance. The t2i' + 70-200mk2 AF and performance is utterly dependable, with thousands of frames of people and style over the years. A lot of photogs in these forums go crazy when you have a different opinion or experience...and its kind of nonsensical.

We can argue semantics, and different experiences, but i think we can all agree that point, focus, shoot, is not that hard.

I wouldn't want other photogs going through Af problems either. We pay good money for this kit.

 

[Marsu42]

Calibrating your equipment is NEVER a waste of time. Trying to take a sharp picture with a lens that needs a 10 point AFMA adjustment is a lesson in futility.

Well, depends on the aperture used and other factors that have an impact on pixel sharpness - but for +-10, it's certainly "worth it". For smaller values, it's debatable how much fuzz really makes a difference, esp. as the afma required varies with subject distance and you can only set 1 or 2 (newer cameras) values.

Having said that: superheros always use proper afma

This is my first post, but not my last, here.

Welcome! Just remember: don't mention the war dynamic range :->

 

[ashmadux]

@ashmadux

My experience is consistent with you in that when my M gets everything right it produces better images than my 7d, I put this down to the later generation digic. However there are many situations where the m just won't deliver for me where my 7d will. I'll jump to the defence of both models where I feel appropriate as I think both were unfairly maligned by lazy or time-pushed reviewers. That said I would also be the first to agree with anybody who said that neither were perfect when new and less so now. I would also like to thank the reviewers for making the M so inexpensive. Keep the 'bad' reviews of the 7d2 coming wink wink.

What I cannot fathom is how you can find the image quality of the T2i better than the 7d.
Same sensor. Same digic generation.

I can only therefor assume you had a bad copy of the 7d, or that you didn't have sufficient time to set it up to your liking. I was about 4 weeks in before I was happy with the AF, sorry, delighted with the af.

The raw recipe took me a little while too, favouring luminance NR over colour NR helps a lot. The jpegs from my m are definately superior, when everything else on the m is behaving.

Hehe ive had this convo a million times in these forums but its all good. Im not complaining, Im just sharing my experience. Ive stated before- my 7d was gold for a year, then it went crazy and canon couldnt fix it. Thats that story.

The 7d and t2i sensors are from the same family, but they are not the same. The t2i does not exhibit the same noise levels, and is very very clean at iso 100/200. The M has the same sensor as the t4i- a bit sharper with the penalty of slightly more noise. It has more noise than the t2i, but its not overly offensive. I only state facts- i have years of usage with these models and Im a SUPER pixel peeper. IQ is of ultra importance to me, as a creative.


Personally, i love my M, while others hate its very existence. It takes great photos, and you cant get the 22/f2 on standard bodies.

The main reviews i believe is TDP. That guy bryan knows his stuff. All the data is there.

 

[ashmadux]

I have the set of test shots from the recent rental i did. Af was basically a disaster. I was going to use it for a test shoot, but very glad the weather didnt hold up- it would have been a complete waste of time. Sot Af helped, but even with that, the images were not as good as my M, and nothing close to my old workhorse t2i. Without af accuracy, the camera is a brick. There's nothing left to do with it.

Believe what you will, but i do i have the proof. the 7d2 is completely off my list, and especially without the touch screen, the 70d is back on my (eventual) buy list. I learned my painful lessons with the first 7d. Not again.

You can stop right there. I have a 70D and I am very happy with it, the AF is great.

I was lucky enough to be able to spend 30 minutes playing with a friend's 7d2 last , it had just arrived. Here's the rub . . .

If you could not get good, sharp pictures from the 7dII then DO NOT buy the 70D.

The 7dII from that 30 minutes is perfectly capable of nailing just about anything (reasonable) we threw at it last night and we got quite inventive by the end. If you honestly believe that the 7dII AF system is not good enough for you to take pictures with there will be no point trying the 70d.

I'm sorry to be blunt but as others have said you really are pushing credibility suggesting that the AF system is so bad.

Have some perspective. You dont see me here trying to discredit the AF as not bein ggood enough.... I stated that I along with others had problems with the AF, as did I. If you works for you, great.

"But it worked for me!" Is not a rational response - you cannot discredit someone else's experience because it wasn't your own. That's just being foolish.

This is a photog forum, is it that hard to figure that many people in here know how to use cameras? You guys are a trip.

 

[fragilesi]

Have some perspective. You dont see me here trying to discredit the AF as not bein ggood enough.... I stated that I along with others had problems with the AF, as did I. If you works for you, great.

Fascinating. So what did you mean when you said:-

I have the set of test shots from the recent rental i did. Af was basically a disaster. I was going to use it for a test shoot, but very glad the weather didnt hold up- it would have been a complete waste of time. Sot Af helped, but even with that, the images were not as good as my M, and nothing close to my old workhorse t2i. Without af accuracy, the camera is a brick. There's nothing left to do with it.

I would hate to see just what you would write if you were trying to "discredit" something.

"But it worked for me!" Is not a rational response - you cannot discredit someone else's experience because it wasn't your own. That's just being foolish.

This is a photog forum, is it that hard to figure that many people in here know how to use cameras? You guys are a trip.

I'd have a think about what you've written so far before you accuse others of being irrational. It seems the large majority can get this AF system to work for them much better than you are suggesting it did for you. If you're in a minority of people that can't it has to be worth questioning your experience, I know that if I was in your shoes I would. I'd at least wonder if the copy I rented had a fault or if I had missed something.

 

[ashmadux]

Just as with the original 7d, the "advanced" Af produced an awful lot of oof images- for newbs and advanced users alike.

100 percent agreement. I'd even bet that the same held true for most 5D3 and 1DX owners. We are not just talking about changing the number of AF points here, we are introducing zones, tracking, acceleration, and more. This is an AF system that is 20 times as complex as that found in lesser cameras.... of course it will be harder to learn... and of course there will be a learning curve.

There is nothing advanced about setting the camera in manual point select, focusing, and clicking the shutter. NOTHING. Any default af setting should be able to accurately focus on the set point, or even when set to automatic point selection. Its not that difficult at all. Whats' difficult is when that most basic of camera functions doesnt work well. And just to clarify, Im talking about still subjects/persons/landscapes.

You could just leave it in single point mode, but then why did you buy the camera???? It is a good starting point and a confidence builder, but if someone bought the camera for it's advanced AF capabilities, they had better expect to take the time and effort to learn how to use it properly.

We are talking the difference between a family sedan and a race car. If you have only driven a family sedan and then get into a race car, you don't expect to keep with the field at an Indy race... You start off driving slow and easy.... you learn new skills, you learn how it handles, you get experience, and you get better and better. To expect anything else is irrational.... It is the same with a camera.

What can be advanced is setting up focal (not everyone has the space) or other afma software. Its a pain in the arse, and wastes valuable time.

Calibrating your equipment is NEVER a waste of time. Trying to take a sharp picture with a lens that needs a 10 point AFMA adjustment is a lesson in futility.

Don, we are actually totally in agreement.

I meant single 'manual' point selection. Also I noted the 7d2 rental did get much better when using spot af point mode- but oddly the regular single point did not work at all, and it could not focus with a 24-105 (IS on, heh), wide or telephoto. Advanced modes are not necessary for my work - but i dont consider spot AF advanced at all. this is an indication that i likely had a bad unit.

Calibrating unfortunately is a MUST. Im also very aware of the technical reasons why lenses and bodies just wont work well together in some instances, thanks to Canon techs, not my opinion. But that kind of information is well beyond even the techies like myself.

I bet that many or these guys making snarkly comments have NEVER sat with an actual tech in front of a screen (at the repair center) to evaluate AF accuracy after a repair. I have. It was awesome. Canon can give you a camera that is not tweaked properly, but if you cant see it, then its a wash.

 

[ashmadux]

Have some perspective. You dont see me here trying to discredit the AF as not bein ggood enough.... I stated that I along with others had problems with the AF, as did I. If you works for you, great.

Fascinating. So what did you mean when you said:-

I have the set of test shots from the recent rental i did. Af was basically a disaster. I was going to use it for a test shoot, but very glad the weather didnt hold up- it would have been a complete waste of time. Sot Af helped, but even with that, the images were not as good as my M, and nothing close to my old workhorse t2i. Without af accuracy, the camera is a brick. There's nothing left to do with it.

I would hate to see just what you would write if you were trying to "discredit" something.

"But it worked for me!" Is not a rational response - you cannot discredit someone else's experience because it wasn't your own. That's just being foolish.

This is a photog forum, is it that hard to figure that many people in here know how to use cameras? You guys are a trip.

I'd have a think about what you've written so far before you accuse others of being irrational. It seems the large majority can get this AF system to work for them much better than you are suggesting it did for you. If you're in a minority of people that can't it has to be worth questioning your experience, I know that if I was in your shoes I would. I'd at least wonder if the copy I rented had a fault or if I had missed something.

Sorry but i have to go there. You don't make any sense, and your approach to someone else's experience is unfortunately quite popular (and misguided) in these photo forums. Again, I encourage the use of PERSPECTIVE (Sorry, caps).

Your argument is full of holes. Here's why.

You were not there to see an experienced photog (I am ) have the AF problems in action. Nope.
The AF was NOT working well. This is a fact. You have no information to discredit it. Nothing.
You havent seen the files. Or have you?
OBVIOUSLY it was the unit that i had. I cant speak for other units. Crazy, thinking, right?
What "majority" are you speaking of? That you even know of? Show us your sampling data and method of how you reached this conclusion. Anything?...oh..NOPE. Oh.. you read forums.....riiiiiiight.

If the camera was not working as it should, what should i write? a glowing review?

You are being fairly ridiculous, and while i probably dont have the nicest tone, it not personal at all. But i believe in talking what you know. You dont have enough info for the statements you are making.

 

[Eldar]

Maybe we could stop giving this guy more attention now? ... :

 

[Lawliet]

This is an AF system that is 20 times as complex as that found in lesser cameras.... of course it will be harder to learn... and of course there will be a learning curve.

Much of the learning curve could be sidestepped with proper documentation, of course.
It's like having to rely on the various scene modes for exposure, an additional layer that makes understanding the underlying mechanics guesswork.

 

[fragilesi]

Sorry but i have to go there. You don't make any sense, and your approach to someone else's experience is unfortunately quite popular (and misguided) in these photo forums. Again, I encourage the use of PERSPECTIVE (Sorry, caps).

Your argument is full of holes. Here's why.

You were not there to see an experienced photog (I am ) have the AF problems in action. Nope.
The AF was NOT working well. This is a fact. You have no information to discredit it. Nothing.
You havent seen the files. Or have you?
OBVIOUSLY it was the unit that i had. I cant speak for other units. Crazy, thinking, right?
What "majority" are you speaking of? That you even know of? Show us your sampling data and method of how you reached this conclusion. Anything?...oh..NOPE. Oh.. you read forums.....riiiiiiight.

If the camera was not working as it should, what should i write? a glowing review?

You are being fairly ridiculous, and while i probably dont have the nicest tone, it not personal at all. But i believe in talking what you know. You dont have enough info for the statements you are making.

Look, you said you didn't try to discredit the AF performance when you did. That's just fact as shown above.

You had trouble making a simple mode of AF to work that I as a pretty inexperienced photographer (just 3 years as a very part time hobbyist) had no issue with. Then again it is what I use the most.

You used this experience to suggest that the reviewer in question was right about the camera. Not that you had a bad copy or might have made some mistake but presented it as evidence he was right.

I say, based on my brief experience, the one other person I know who raves about the camera and yes the majority of reviewers that you either made a mistake or had a unit that wasn't working correctly. I am also seeing daily new galleries of excellent images shot with this camera that simply wouldn't be possible with the AF system as you describe it.

So, I'll try once again. Although we only have your word for it I take at face value everything you have said about your rental experience with that one copy of the camera. I accept it, I would hate to think that I had spent so much time debating this with the kind of person that would make such a thing up. Just take it from me, I'm in no way denying what you say happened, okay? I don't think I have ever said that you didn't have this experience.

What I have said is that if you really are attempting to present that as being typical of the experience that 7dII users who work with the camera will have then you are pushing the bounds of credibility.

For what it's worth, no you don't have the nicest tone but what the hell, it's not like we're neighbours so we don't have to put up with each other any more than we need to do we?

 

[papa-razzi]

I really wish some of these people making such great generalisations would go out and buy one of these other more advanced cameras and see just how well it really does. We've had the sensor thing and I think most agree there are other, better sensors out there but struggle to see quite why people see it as such an earth-shattering deal breaker in a camera of this type.

Go out and buy the latest Sony then, let's see how it copes with being battered, how long it lasts, how reliable it is, whether it can focus as well as the new Canon. Because unless it can saying that Canon is over-priced or based on old tech is to miss the point. It's innovative to put some new tech in a camera, it's actually bloody hard to make it reliable and resilient. That's the difference,

Reliable and resilient? Ugh! You do realise that means your camera will be even more out-dated in a few years time? Why would you want a perfectly good camera that will produce great images for years, when you could be replacing it every year and living on the cutting-edge of tech? Get hip, daddy-o, and swing with the times!

Replacing quite expensive gear every year? I replace my gear when it's broken and have paid off, not sooner. Who needs cutting-edge technology, when previous generation is 95% as good as the new one? Unless you're a pro and can deduct new gear from taxes (which still isn't that easy and cheap) or a rich person, who don't need to think abot paying bills and feeding family, because his income exceeds majority of popuplation, I don't think there are that many people, than can afford spending for 5D3 or 1Dx every year. A new 5D body every year basicly means around 250 USD spend monthly. In my world, this is not a spare change to me, especially for a hobby and not a working tool.

Khalai, read Lintoni's quote again. Sarcasm. I think you missed that.

 

[Marsu42]

I would hate to see just what you would write if you were trying to "discredit" something.

LOL

 

[Khalai]

Reliable and resilient? Ugh! You do realise that means your camera will be even more out-dated in a few years time? Why would you want a perfectly good camera that will produce great images for years, when you could be replacing it every year and living on the cutting-edge of tech? Get hip, daddy-o, and swing with the times!

Replacing quite expensive gear every year? I replace my gear when it's broken and have paid off, not sooner. Who needs cutting-edge technology, when previous generation is 95% as good as the new one? Unless you're a pro and can deduct new gear from taxes (which still isn't that easy and cheap) or a rich person, who don't need to think abot paying bills and feeding family, because his income exceeds majority of popuplation, I don't think there are that many people, than can afford spending for 5D3 or 1Dx every year. A new 5D body every year basicly means around 250 USD spend monthly. In my world, this is not a spare change to me, especially for a hobby and not a working tool.

Khalai, read Lintoni's quote again. Sarcasm. I think you missed that.

Well if that is truly the case, it was very well hidden In that case, please ignore my previous post.

 

[Pierce]

Hi,

Ive been reading and watching dslr videos for a while just as the 5d mk iii was released. Then I fell out of photography and didnt bother with it until I went on holidays with my G10 last year which I love, but wanted it to be "better". I started cheap, real cheap.

Purchasing a 100d and a 40mm and 50mm it was a great start. Quickly followed by a 17-40 f4 l and a 300mm f4 l(omg what a lens!).

Anyways that was a 9 point af system which was pretty weak. But I still think I took some of my best shots with this camera even to this day! The picture of the car is 100d, 50mm f1.8

I am rambling a bit because this thread is about the 7d mk ii not my progress as a photographer. I purchased a 2nd hand 7d late last year knowing the 7d mk ii would come out "soonish" from the chatter on the forums here.

That was a monster and its 19 point af system taught me a lot. It taught me how to use my 100d!

I have used the 7d mk ii for a few outings. Its focus system is quite frankly crazy fast.

Its production of images is very good too. I of course would love an FF but I cannot justify an FF until the new model chatter calms down. It would be nice to be spoilt between a 6d mk ii and a 5d iv

I took the following picture while walking, I didn't frame it, look through the viewfinder or anything.

Now I am not saying that people that are having issues are trolls or up to no good, but from my path learning this art is that the camera is the most insufferable method of capturing an image. But the only way to do so. If you are having issues with the camera and you are confident it is not you the user you should consult who you purchased it from.

But what I am saying is that it takes practice, patience and a bit of confidence getting to know your camera and your gear. I could of thrown my 100d in the bin because I couldnt get sharp images. With practice and a bit of know how I was able to take a picture of a race car in the night and get it to look sharp.

I am a professional in other industries, but I wouldn't go on site to a customer with a product ive never taken out of the box other than a few pictures in the bed room or chasing after the dog and say this is awesome(or terrible). That is setting yourself up for a fall.

I just wanted to post these pictures because I feel the camera is getting bashed a bit hard, could of been better, old technology, no dymanic resolution, autofocus sucks, its noisy, its that its the other.

My experience as a general causal user is that this is a capable camera in my hands, I cannot imagine what a professional who holds this camera in their hands 8+ hours a day and depends on it for their lively hood can get out of it.

Anyways just my opinion and my experience. I do look forward to finding some more action type photos to take picture of and hope to do so over the christmas with a bit of nature etc. If I get any good shots I will post them on CR.

Merry Christmas to all & a Happy New year.

Pierce

 

[neuroanatomist]

...there were MANY happy 7d users. I actually was one, for the first year. then the AF broke, and canon wasnt able to fix it after 4 attempts. I had to junk it...

Ok, now I get it. If you have a unit that is or becomes defective, that entire model is junk.

I repeat: Whatever, bub.

 

[ashmadux]

Look, you said you didn't try to discredit the AF performance when you did. That's just fact as shown above.

You had trouble making a simple mode of AF to work that I as a pretty inexperienced photographer (just 3 years as a very part time hobbyist) had no issue with. Then again it is what I use the most.

You used this experience to suggest that the reviewer in question was right about the camera. Not that you had a bad copy or might have made some mistake but presented it as evidence he was right.

I say, based on my brief experience, the one other person I know who raves about the camera and yes the majority of reviewers that you either made a mistake or had a unit that wasn't working correctly. I am also seeing daily new galleries of excellent images shot with this camera that simply wouldn't be possible with the AF system as you describe it.

So, I'll try once again. Although we only have your word for it I take at face value everything you have said about your rental experience with that one copy of the camera. I accept it, I would hate to think that I had spent so much time debating this with the kind of person that would make such a thing up. Just take it from me, I'm in no way denying what you say happened, okay? I don't think I have ever said that you didn't have this experience.

What I have said is that if you really are attempting to present that as being typical of the experience that 7dII users who work with the camera will have then you are pushing the bounds of credibility.

For what it's worth, no you don't have the nicest tone but what the hell, it's not like we're neighbours so we don't have to put up with each other any more than we need to do we?

I hear that. All i did was agree with the (apparently disliked) reviewer based on my usage. I cannot say if that situation is typical...heck i hope not.

Photog neighbors...that would actually be very cool.


Cheers, happy shooting (with good Af, heheh )