Sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly

[Aglet]

You can look at all the comments, FM forums etc. I won't waste any more time with links to all the topics, the issue is very much real, but of course some say "I shoot sports at f2.8 anyway" and ignore the problem. This is not the only fiasco Canon had, they just manage to "hide" much better than Nikon - you can read into the second case and you'll know that they probably made similar "offers" to other cases just to close and hide it.

Yes, the issue is real, but how do Canon 'hide it much better' if people report it on the internet? What you are talking about is whether the company admits liability.

years back, when I actually was an all-Canon camp, i discovered a WB bug in DPP and reported it... guess what the first thing the Canon support guy said to me on the phone?...

"Please don't post this on any internet forums!"

Numerous DPP updates later, bug remained.
Not sure if it's still there... don't care. quickly outgrew DPP

 

[Aglet]

What 'truth'?
So what you are saying is that if Nikon and Sony make advances and Canon do nothing they will go under. Yep and they will deserve it. You could equally say that if Sony rest on their laurels and do nothing over the next 5 years and Canon keep as they are, then Sony will go under.
So what is the point of your comment?

Here's a question: who has made more gains in sensor performance in the last 3 years? I would say it is Canon. I agree that Canon has not caught up with Sony sensor but Canon sensor 2013 vs 2017 shows greater advance than Sony 2013 vs 2017. Sony are now realising the disadvantages of making a great leap forward.

seriously, dude, what kind of rabbit-hole logic is that?...
I only hear stuff like that when I talk to an old war-vet buddy when he's high :-\

maybe you should take a closer look at the sensors Sony has produced in the last year.
Like the one in the Fuji medium format
the a9 that has nearly 700 AF points on it and and pumps out 20 fps

or the FF 42MP unit; more MP, still low noise and good DR and 12 fps

The high sensitivity 12.x MP sensor of the A7s2 that not only has great specs but can do 4k video too.

and I don't know if they make the 20MP MFT sensor in the latest Olympus but that is a wicked performing little device that, according to Bill's website, exceeds theoretical performance for an MFT sensor!

You not payin' attention there, buddy. They've been ahead for a while and they're really good at innovating while Canon is still playing catch-up.

 

[Mikehit]

What 'truth'?
So what you are saying is that if Nikon and Sony make advances and Canon do nothing they will go under. Yep and they will deserve it. You could equally say that if Sony rest on their laurels and do nothing over the next 5 years and Canon keep as they are, then Sony will go under.
So what is the point of your comment?

Here's a question: who has made more gains in sensor performance in the last 3 years? I would say it is Canon. I agree that Canon has not caught up with Sony sensor but Canon sensor 2013 vs 2017 shows greater advance than Sony 2013 vs 2017. Sony are now realising the disadvantages of making a great leap forward.

seriously, dude, what kind of rabbit-hole logic is that?...
I only hear stuff like that when I talk to an old war-vet buddy when he's high :-\

maybe you should take a closer look at the sensors Sony has produced in the last year.
Like the one in the Fuji medium format
the a9 that has nearly 700 AF points on it and and pumps out 20 fps

or the FF 42MP unit; more MP, still low noise and good DR and 12 fps

The high sensitivity 12.x MP sensor of the A7s2 that not only has great specs but can do 4k video too.

and I don't know if they make the 20MP MFT sensor in the latest Olympus but that is a wicked performing little device that, according to Bill's website, exceeds theoretical performance for an MFT sensor!

You not payin' attention there, buddy. They've been ahead for a while and they're really good at innovating while Canon is still playing catch-up.

You obviously need to re-read it in the context of deadwrong's comment.
I was showing the stupidity of his comment that 'if Canon does nothing they are sunk', showing it equally applies to any other manufacturer and as such is meaningless. I made no comment on the merits of any particular brand.

Regards the advances, I acknowledged that Sony and others were ahead of Canon but what this means is that their development curve is slowing up. Canon is behind in the technology which means they have more room for developments and they have closed the gap significantly: just look at the comparisons people make where 2 or 3 years ago, the comparison was 3-stop push. Now it is a 6-stop push and the occasions that a Sony can handle a situation that Canon cannot is becoming ever fewer. Despite deadwrong's facile comment there is no reason to believe that will not continue unless, of course, Sony develop a new sensor.

Perhaps it is you "not payin' attention there, buddy. "

 

[neuroanatomist]

They acknowledged it on the 1dx, not the mk2. Mine has splatter, though not as bad as the linked post. They took it in for cleaning 3 times but always come back the same. Won't say it's oil splatter. I'm a CPS platinum member and also bought their carepak for this camera, but if they won't acknowledge there's a problem it does me no good.

Do you mean they're not actually cleaning the sensor, or do new spots develop? How do you know they're oil and not dust?

What do you mean by 'acknowledge the problem'? If your sensor is getting dust on it, that's not a 'problem'. If it's getting oil splatters, that is a problem and Canon should correct it. But don't expect them to issue a recall for a handful of affected units.

 

[neuroanatomist]

years back, when I actually was an all-Canon camp, i discovered a WB bug in DPP and reported it... guess what the first thing the Canon support guy said to me on the phone?...

"Please don't post this on any internet forums!"

Numerous DPP updates later, bug remained.
Not sure if it's still there... don't care. quickly outgrew DPP

Interesting. When I reported a 1D X firmware bug with AFMA, they couldn't reproduce it. When I explained how to reproduce it (enabling orientation-linked AF point resulted in AFMA values not being stored), they were able to reproduce the problem. It was addressed in a firmware update released the following month.

So perhaps they simply couldn't reproduce your 'bug'.

 

[leGreve]

Since Canon has stopped with competing and innovation..... Nikon is about to unleash what we've hoped for with the latest Canon's.

Nikon D850 Full Specification
New 46MP FX Format sensor
AF system same as Nikon D5
4K Videos
full HD 120fps video
Tiltable LCD touchscreen
Improved dynamic range
Continuous shooting speed upto 8fps
Improved low-light performace
New and improved version of SnapBridge
No built-in GPS
Memory card slots: one SD and one XQD
Back illuminated buttons
Joystick selector
Built-in Bluetooth and Wi-Fi
8K time-lapse video capabilities
The D850 will be on display at the Photo+ Expo in October
No EVF or hybrid viewfinder
D850 LCD will have twice the resolution of the D810
SD slot will support UHS-II
Improved LiveView split-screen display
Improved silent shooting mode
Better battery life
lighter than the D810

The camera shipping of the camera will start from October and we can expect its official announcement on September 2017.

Dunno bout you.... but I'm personally done with shooting video / film with dslr and dslr lenses... and in terms of still quality, I do own a 5D4 now, but the 5D3 was good enough for stills already.
For video, I'll rely on my FS7 II and the Fujinon MK lenses or the Sony Selp 18-135...

I would expect that Nikon to be priced way too high for a stills camera with semi decent video abilities.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

The fact that Nikon had to replace D600 with D610 says alot. Not to mention the various shutter issues of D750. But yes, the yet to be released camera body is always the perfect one that will mark the begining of Canon's doom ;D

Same thing with the d800, which first came ass 2 models, then a year later comes the d810...

If history repeats, there will be a d860 released next year. So hope your bank account is ready for that!

 

[Aglet]

years back, when I actually was an all-Canon camp, i discovered a WB bug in DPP and reported it... guess what the first thing the Canon support guy said to me on the phone?...

"Please don't post this on any internet forums!"

Numerous DPP updates later, bug remained.
Not sure if it's still there... don't care. quickly outgrew DPP

Interesting. When I reported a 1D X firmware bug with AFMA, they couldn't reproduce it. When I explained how to reproduce it (enabling orientation-linked AF point resulted in AFMA values not being stored), they were able to reproduce the problem. It was addressed in a firmware update released the following month.

So perhaps they simply couldn't reproduce your 'bug'.

No, they certainly could.
Sample files were requested and provided along with workflow settings that exhibited the bug.
I even provided examples using other raw software processing for comparison. I had to do some crazy stuff in photoshop to replicate the effect that was in the DPP bug but did so in order that they could see what was happening to cause the problem.
Support contact escalated and there was a lot of back and forth between me and Canon support on the topic for a while and I certainly commend them for taking interest in it and trying to correct it.
Unfortunately I never got a direct response from the software team as to whether that problem was fixed as my support liaison wasn't privy to that info.

It was an otherwise decent bit of software, especially considering the price.
I made a lot of use of it initially for batch processing and global edits but it was pretty darn slow.

Since I was starting to make more use of other raw processing software i didn't follow up on it and abandoned DPP.

 

[Aglet]

You obviously need to re-read it in the context of deadwrong's comment.
I was showing the stupidity of his comment that 'if Canon does nothing they are sunk', showing it equally applies to any other manufacturer and as such is meaningless. I made no comment on the merits of any particular brand.

HAHA! OK, perhaps I didn't recognize you were responding "in kind" to that previous comment cuz it just seemed to extend the level of WT? way out there.

Regards the advances, I acknowledged that Sony and others were ahead of Canon but what this means is that their development curve is slowing up. Canon is behind in the technology which means they have more room for developments and they have closed the gap significantly: just look at the comparisons people make where 2 or 3 years ago, the comparison was 3-stop push. Now it is a 6-stop push and the occasions that a Sony can handle a situation that Canon cannot is becoming ever fewer. Despite deadwrong's facile comment there is no reason to believe that will not continue unless, of course, Sony develop a new sensor.

Sony, and everyone else in the sensor biz, are already bumping into the practical limits of physics.
This is certainly one area where Canon definitely has more "headroom."

It's gonna take some pretty clever innovation to improve on what we have now to any substantial degree.
Crikey! We're literally counting individual photons and electrons here already!
(And like a bad poker player, Canon's still slipping in a few extra )

If anyone wants an introduction to quantum physics, just ponder your camera's sensor!

Perhaps it is you "not payin' attention there, buddy. "

HAHA! Yes, perhaps. We're still waiting for sarcasm and hyperbole fonts.

 

[Cthulhu]

They acknowledged it on the 1dx, not the mk2. Mine has splatter, though not as bad as the linked post. They took it in for cleaning 3 times but always come back the same. Won't say it's oil splatter. I'm a CPS platinum member and also bought their carepak for this camera, but if they won't acknowledge there's a problem it does me no good.

Do you mean they're not actually cleaning the sensor, or do new spots develop? How do you know they're oil and not dust?

What do you mean by 'acknowledge the problem'? If your sensor is getting dust on it, that's not a 'problem'. If it's getting oil splatters, that is a problem and Canon should correct it. But don't expect them to issue a recall for a handful of affected units.

Because it's not solid and will sometimes fringe, they're fairly easy to distinguish from dust if you've seen them before. Oddly enough it's also on the upper left corner. I'll be sending it in again this month, it's actually already boxed. What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly. Ironically the camera could be run over by a truck and they'd just ship me a new one...

 

[neuroanatomist]

[What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly.

I have no doubt that that is their policy, unless and until they have sufficient evidence to document that there is a problem. No doubt people with oily 1D X sensors were told the very same, until the service advisory was issued.

 

[Mikehit]

Because it's not solid and will sometimes fringe, they're fairly easy to distinguish from dust if you've seen them before. Oddly enough it's also on the upper left corner. I'll be sending it in again this month, it's actually already boxed. What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly. Ironically the camera could be run over by a truck and they'd just ship me a new one...

When you say 'acknowledge the problem' do you think it is a design fault or a something that happens more often than you think it should.
When something is moving as fast as the shutter at 14/16 fps I think bits flying around is to be expected. Some demanding users are on record as saying 'what do you expect' - others believe it should not happen. So in some ways I can understand Canon's response in that if it is not a faulty part or it is not a design fault why should they do anything other than clean it up and send it back? Why do you think replacing the shutter assembly will solve anything?

 

[Cthulhu]

Because it's not solid and will sometimes fringe, they're fairly easy to distinguish from dust if you've seen them before. Oddly enough it's also on the upper left corner. I'll be sending it in again this month, it's actually already boxed. What I mean by acknowledge the problem is that on the phone they swear there's no such problem and therefore will only do a sensor cleaning, despite oil re-surging on the same area of the sensor, otherwise they might replace the shutter assembly. Ironically the camera could be run over by a truck and they'd just ship me a new one...

When you say 'acknowledge the problem' do you think it is a design fault or a something that happens more often than you think it should.
When something is moving as fast as the shutter at 14/16 fps I think bits flying around is to be expected. Some demanding users are on record as saying 'what do you expect' - others believe it should not happen. So in some ways I can understand Canon's response in that if it is not a faulty part or it is not a design fault why should they do anything other than clean it up and send it back? Why do you think replacing the shutter assembly will solve anything?

I mean it happens on my body and not on others, what is this nonsense drivel you came up with? Whether or not you expect and understand it, I don't and neither does Canon. Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

 

[unfocused]

...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient.

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel,is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.

 

[privatebydesign]

...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient.

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel,is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.

This https://garypoulton.com/tag/nikon-d600-sensor-problems/ is an oil splatter issue. A few bits here and there that anybody with can clean or clone out isn't, there is far too much talk of 'issues' when in reality the perceived symptoms are not "issues" or "problems" of any consequence.

P.S. I am not frustrated. I never sent in my 1DS MkIII's for their oil splatter recall because I cleaned the sensor myself anyway, and if the 1DX MkII gets a recall for the same thing they won't get my two for that either.

 

[Cthulhu]

...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient.

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel,is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.

This https://garypoulton.com/tag/nikon-d600-sensor-problems/ is an oil splatter issue. A few bits here and there that anybody with can clean or clone out isn't, there is far too much talk of 'issues' when in reality the perceived symptoms are not "issues" or "problems" of any consequence.

P.S. I am not frustrated. I never sent in my 1DS MkIII's for their oil splatter recall because I cleaned the sensor myself anyway, and if the 1DX MkII gets a recall for the same thing they won't get my two for that either.

Do you use your bodies for work?

 

[privatebydesign]

...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient.

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel,is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.

This https://garypoulton.com/tag/nikon-d600-sensor-problems/ is an oil splatter issue. A few bits here and there that anybody with can clean or clone out isn't, there is far too much talk of 'issues' when in reality the perceived symptoms are not "issues" or "problems" of any consequence.

P.S. I am not frustrated. I never sent in my 1DS MkIII's for their oil splatter recall because I cleaned the sensor myself anyway, and if the 1DX MkII gets a recall for the same thing they won't get my two for that either.

Do you use your bodies for work?

Yes, and I have done since 1978 when we constantly worried about our film getting scratched during processing. If people are so worried and obsessive about a few dust and oil spots that only show at small apertures in even toned areas of an image they really are worrying about the wrong things.

 

[unfocused]

...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient.

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.

This https://garypoulton.com/tag/nikon-d600-sensor-problems/ is an oil splatter issue. A few bits here and there that anybody with can clean or clone out isn't, there is far too much talk of 'issues' when in reality the perceived symptoms are not "issues" or "problems" of any consequence.

P.S. I am not frustrated. I never sent in my 1DS MkIII's for their oil splatter recall because I cleaned the sensor myself anyway, and if the 1DX MkII gets a recall for the same thing they won't get my two for that either.

What's your point?

That because it's not a problem for you, then no one is allowed to say it is a problem? Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

That Nikon has had problems as well, so therefore it should be okay? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

That we used to have to deal with film scratches. Yeah, well, we used to have to develop film and print photos using noxious chemicals. Thank God those days are over. Trading one problem for another still means you have a problem.

As for cleaning the sensor yourself, the only sensor cleaning approved by Canon is using a blower -- no brushes, no liquids, no nothing. Yet we all know how ineffective that is. It seems like a Catch-22. Either send your camera in every week or two for a cleaning (and have it come back still needing to be cleaned, by the way) or risk voiding the warranty by cleaning it yourself.

I'm not saying Canon is terrible or doomed or that I should be able to push an underexposed image by six stops. Heck, I'm as big of a Canon fanboy as the next guy. But, when people reference a problem that has been well-documented by professionals, it's kind of pointless to argue that because you personally don't find it to be a problem, then no one else can talk about it.

The 1D X II is a great camera and has compensating advantages. But, that doesn't mean I have to be happy that anytime I shoot a scene outside, my $6,000 camera is going to leave spots all over the sky.

It is a problem. I have learned to live with it. Perhaps it is unavoidable with 1 Series cameras. I don't know. But, denying the facts only discourages Canon (and Nikon) from trying to fix it.

 

[Cthulhu]

...Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Whether it is dust or oil I don't know, but I can certainly confirm that the problem is real. When someone like Art Morris raises the issue, you know it's a problem. I do know that I have to clean the sensor about 10 - 20 times more frequently than I ever had to clean the 5D III or the 7D II, in fact with both of those an annual trip to CPS was sufficient.

I think a lot of the frustration 1D X II owners feel,is due to Canon's failure to be transparent about the problem.

This https://garypoulton.com/tag/nikon-d600-sensor-problems/ is an oil splatter issue. A few bits here and there that anybody with can clean or clone out isn't, there is far too much talk of 'issues' when in reality the perceived symptoms are not "issues" or "problems" of any consequence.

P.S. I am not frustrated. I never sent in my 1DS MkIII's for their oil splatter recall because I cleaned the sensor myself anyway, and if the 1DX MkII gets a recall for the same thing they won't get my two for that either.

Do you use your bodies for work?

Yes, and I have done since 1978 when we constantly worried about our film getting scratched during processing. If people are so worried and obsessive about a few dust and oil spots that only show at small apertures in even toned areas of an image they really are worrying about the wrong things.

I rarely ever shoot at very narrow apertures, occasionally f8-f11 when birding which is rare, but oil splatter will show if you need to push shadows in post even at medium apertures, sometimes at any aperture. Sometimes it'll show without any modification to the image, it'll likely show up in the sky or light colored backgrounds, like this nice custom painted backdrop I have to use soon. Currently my "few spots" have been replaced by a big ol' blotch, so it's boxed to be sent back to Canon.

You see I have a big project at the end of the month and can't trust my $6000 camera to not force me to correct dozens upon dozens of portraits, possibly discarding some, as it'll be printed and distributed nationwide. Currently I avoid having my main subjects on the left side of my images and often frame knowing I might have to crop that area out if it can't be fixed in post if oil shows up. I already know I'm going to have to bring an alternate black backdrop and had to schedule the shoot dates around having the camera serviced again.

Sooooo tell me again how that's worrying about the wrong things...

 

[Mikehit]

I mean it happens on my body and not on others, what is this nonsense drivel you came up with? Whether or not you expect and understand it, I don't and neither does Canon. Are you seriously saying it's ok and fine for anyone to be selling cameras that splatter oil on their sensors? Canon certainly is not, neither is Nikon or any other brand on earth.

Will you get off your high horse and stop going into a tantrum when someone disagrees with you. I asked a question of what you meant by 'problem' and posited why Canon take the view they did. I made no comment on its legitimacy.