Sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly

[BillB]

The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.

The 5D Mark IV is a different story. It wasn't received by the industry with huge delight, but it wasn't criticized other than the 4K capability. As a stills camera, it is good. While it has been easily surpassed by the D850 in every single area except for DPAF, it is still a great camera that is relevant to the features and quality expected today. It literally only has DPAF as an advantage and nothing else in comparison to the D850.

The 6D2 is being torn to pieces over its questionable IQ, and that was unexpected as the rest of the camera's specs were weak and should have been the focus of the negative reviews. It was a surprise that the IQ stole the spotlight of negativity. The articulating screen is nice, but no one cares when it is attached to a sub-par body.

The 6D and 5D3 generation did not get leapfrogged by Nikon's D610, D750 and D810 nearly as bad as the 6D2 and 5D4 have by the D850 and who knows how stacked the D760 will be.

Canon either blundered or is genius in their assessment of the market. There's no in between. To me, it looks like they are pushing upmarket. This is evident by their total and intentional crippling of video capability in their DSLR except the 1DX2. The 6D2 was the full frame 80D Canon users wanted and nothing more. May be popular within their own ecosystem, but is not popular in the wider industry. Canon offers the entry level Rebel popular stuff, and a couple nice enthusiast cameras. Then it jumps to pro bodies at the 5D series and up. The 6D2 is a bit of an oddball as it's there for the large customer base of entry level and enthusiast body owners who want to make the jump to a FF sensor and not much more. It serves that purpose perfectly. These are people who don't need 5D features or specs. They just want a FF sensor wrapped by enthusiast features and body.

There you have it. If you fall into the target market - it isn't such a bad camera. For everyone else, it is relic from the past being sold as a new body.

As for the 5D Mark IV, Canon users with arsenals of serious glass will not care one bit what Nikon is doing - that camera will churn out great IQ day in day out. It is still an amazing body regardless of how good the D850 is.

I'm not quite sure how a camera that meets need of its target audience is obsolete, especially a camera introduced at the $2000 price point. A lot of very good photographs can and will be taken by 6DII cameras, just like a lot of very good photographs were taken by 6Ds. Often, camera specs don't have any practical impact on the quality of the photograph. At least as far as I am concerned, the 6DII's articulated screen and touchscreen focussing are useful features, which don't square with your contention that there is nothing new in the 6DII.

 

[Sarpedon]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.

I agree with you.
But when you have several people starting accounts simply so they can complain about the latest Canon camera, it is hard to not be cynical.
If someone posts and is willing to participate in discussion that is one thing, but when all they do is repeat the same tired old criticisms and don't actually bring anything new to the table I think it is acceptable to call them out. And if that means overreacting to some seriously held opinions then that is collateral damage.
In any social interaction, people 'earn the right' to have their opinions taken seriously and that applies to internet forums as much as meeting people in a bar or at any other social gathering. If at a social gathering someone you did not know decided to criticise something you think seriously about without any pre-amble or any explanation of where they are coming from, would you give them the time of day?

My point wasn't so much that trolls shouldn't be confronted (though I think that's often a waste of time). It's that the "collateral damage" you speak of isn't a minor, incidental by-product of trolls, but a major factor in the tenor of this forum's worst threads; and that it's something that comes not only from dealing with trolls, but from the bad habits and character traits of the people who are lashing out indiscriminately, which is why I said people should take responsibility for their behavior.

To take the scenario you lay out: if some random person came up to me and started rudely criticizing something I thought seriously about, with no preamble, I'd tell him off. But if someone came up to me and stated his disagreement plainly, I wouldn't tell him off. My point is that the second guy in this hypothetical comes to this forum and often gets yelled at, and that people start yelling at the first guy even when he's not there.

I also think some (emphasis on "some"!) of these trolls are just people being a little hysterical because some new camera didn't have the feature they were expecting. Those people should have their mistakes explained to them politely. I've seen that happen and it's much more effective. Too often, though, someone drops in to insult that person and brag childishly about Canon's market share.

 

[Don Haines]

The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.

The 5D Mark IV is a different story. It wasn't received by the industry with huge delight, but it wasn't criticized other than the 4K capability. As a stills camera, it is good. While it has been easily surpassed by the D850 in every single area except for DPAF, it is still a great camera that is relevant to the features and quality expected today. It literally only has DPAF as an advantage and nothing else in comparison to the D850.

The 6D2 is being torn to pieces over its questionable IQ, and that was unexpected as the rest of the camera's specs were weak and should have been the focus of the negative reviews. It was a surprise that the IQ stole the spotlight of negativity. The articulating screen is nice, but no one cares when it is attached to a sub-par body.

The 6D and 5D3 generation did not get leapfrogged by Nikon's D610, D750 and D810 nearly as bad as the 6D2 and 5D4 have by the D850 and who knows how stacked the D760 will be.

Canon either blundered or is genius in their assessment of the market. There's no in between. To me, it looks like they are pushing upmarket. This is evident by their total and intentional crippling of video capability in their DSLR except the 1DX2. The 6D2 was the full frame 80D Canon users wanted and nothing more. May be popular within their own ecosystem, but is not popular in the wider industry. Canon offers the entry level Rebel popular stuff, and a couple nice enthusiast cameras. Then it jumps to pro bodies at the 5D series and up. The 6D2 is a bit of an oddball as it's there for the large customer base of entry level and enthusiast body owners who want to make the jump to a FF sensor and not much more. It serves that purpose perfectly. These are people who don't need 5D features or specs. They just want a FF sensor wrapped by enthusiast features and body.

There you have it. If you fall into the target market - it isn't such a bad camera. For everyone else, it is relic from the past being sold as a new body.

As for the 5D Mark IV, Canon users with arsenals of serious glass will not care one bit what Nikon is doing - that camera will churn out great IQ day in day out. It is still an amazing body regardless of how good the D850 is.

I'm not quite sure how a camera that meets need of its target audience is obsolete, especially a camera introduced at the $2000 price point. A lot of very good photographs can and will be taken by 6DII cameras, just like a lot of very good photographs were taken by 6Ds. Often, camera specs don't have any practical impact on the quality of the photograph. At least as far as I am concerned, the 6DII's articulated screen and touchscreen focussing are useful features, which don't square with your contention that there is nothing new in the 6DII.

I shot a lot of star pictures last weekend, the tilt-swivel screen was a fantastic feature to have......

I shot a lot of birds from my canoe tonight.... the extra AF points were great to have......

I shot a lot of pictures last month inside a poorly lit cottage, the high ISO was great to have.....

The extra megapixels make cropping better and capture more detail, it's great to have.....

I shot some cloud time lapse, another function that's great to have......

I put the camera on a tripod beside a feeder, wireless control is great to have......

The in body stabilization of video really works, a great feature to have.....

There is a lot more to a camera than a sensor!

 

[deadwrong]

Hey, I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL. Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.

Nikon is stepping up with the d850 and giving just about exactly what most want in a good all around camera and creating some excitement.

I would say the 5div has the DPAF is all it has going for it at the moment in my eye.


6dii was a big JOKE. Sorry for all those that got suckered into buying that.

 

[Jopa]

Hey, I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL. Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.

Nikon is stepping up with the d850 and giving just about exactly what most want in a good all around camera and creating some excitement.

I would say the 5div has the DPAF is all it has going for it at the moment in my eye.


6dii was a big JOKE. Sorry for all those that got suckered into buying that.

You must be a real troll pro unlike the other amateurs with their old school Canon cameras on this forum. I would love to see your work and learn from you...

 

[stevelee]

Of course all of our electronic gadgets are obsolete by the time they come to market. One can choose between what is available at a given time or wait for the next great thing. One might continue to wait ad infinitum and never be bothered with the expense of purchases and the burden of using actual cameras and taking actual pictures.

 

[unfocused]

...I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL...

...Nikon is stepping up with the d850...

I see your screen name remains 100% accurate.

Seriously, if you are that excited about the new Nikon or the next Sony, by all means buy it. I only ask that you post some pictures so we can all see how these cameras have made you a great photographer. (Might be good to post some before and after shots comparing Canon to Nikon or Sony.)

 

[Mikehit]

Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.

Why would a camera costing 5G be laughable in 6-8 months? If your opinion of a camera changes just because a manufacturer has brought out another model then that says more about you than it does about the qualities of the camera.

 

[Ladislav]

Bla bla bla. Is your car obsolete because some other manufacturer released a car which has better acceleration?

 

[LonelyBoy]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.

I agree with you.
But when you have several people starting accounts simply so they can complain about the latest Canon camera, it is hard to not be cynical.
If someone posts and is willing to participate in discussion that is one thing, but when all they do is repeat the same tired old criticisms and don't actually bring anything new to the table I think it is acceptable to call them out. And if that means overreacting to some seriously held opinions then that is collateral damage.
In any social interaction, people 'earn the right' to have their opinions taken seriously and that applies to internet forums as much as meeting people in a bar or at any other social gathering. If at a social gathering someone you did not know decided to criticise something you think seriously about without any pre-amble or any explanation of where they are coming from, would you give them the time of day?

And I just got a warning for observing the same thing. It's a shame; if CRGuy's preference is to allow new users to come in and be inflammatory, and punish those who call out the antisocial behavior, there's not much point in clicking past the front page to see what might be coming out soon.

 

[scyrene]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.

I agree with you.
But when you have several people starting accounts simply so they can complain about the latest Canon camera, it is hard to not be cynical.
If someone posts and is willing to participate in discussion that is one thing, but when all they do is repeat the same tired old criticisms and don't actually bring anything new to the table I think it is acceptable to call them out. And if that means overreacting to some seriously held opinions then that is collateral damage.
In any social interaction, people 'earn the right' to have their opinions taken seriously and that applies to internet forums as much as meeting people in a bar or at any other social gathering. If at a social gathering someone you did not know decided to criticise something you think seriously about without any pre-amble or any explanation of where they are coming from, would you give them the time of day?

My point wasn't so much that trolls shouldn't be confronted (though I think that's often a waste of time). It's that the "collateral damage" you speak of isn't a minor, incidental by-product of trolls, but a major factor in the tenor of this forum's worst threads; and that it's something that comes not only from dealing with trolls, but from the bad habits and character traits of the people who are lashing out indiscriminately, which is why I said people should take responsibility for their behavior.

To take the scenario you lay out: if some random person came up to me and started rudely criticizing something I thought seriously about, with no preamble, I'd tell him off. But if someone came up to me and stated his disagreement plainly, I wouldn't tell him off. My point is that the second guy in this hypothetical comes to this forum and often gets yelled at, and that people start yelling at the first guy even when he's not there.

I also think some (emphasis on "some"!) of these trolls are just people being a little hysterical because some new camera didn't have the feature they were expecting. Those people should have their mistakes explained to them politely. I've seen that happen and it's much more effective. Too often, though, someone drops in to insult that person and brag childishly about Canon's market share.

Yeah. It is very hard to tell sometimes, maybe a lot of the time - I think part of the problem is the 'true' trolls have created and sustained a narrative, and other people repeat it without realising its provenance or unreliability. I always try to give new people the benefit of the doubt, but I also don't want to be naive. And mostly people do have their mistakes calmly explained, but after a while, it gets very trying. In your scenario, instead of it being face to face, imagine if you got a letter every few days appearing to be from a different person each time, but essentially saying the same thing. Wouldn't you eventually tire of politely replying?

And sure, the sarcastic pre-emptive 'Canon is doomed' posts from regulars aren't very funny but I don't think they make much difference - naysayers pop up anyhow.

 

[Ian_of_glos]

Hey, I like the 5div for stills.......TODAY, but by this time next year......these cameras are NOT future proofed AT ALL. Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.

Nikon is stepping up with the d850 and giving just about exactly what most want in a good all around camera and creating some excitement.

I would say the 5div has the DPAF is all it has going for it at the moment in my eye.


6dii was a big JOKE. Sorry for all those that got suckered into buying that.

Sorry, but I do not understand these comments. What happens to a camera after 6-8 months to render it obsolete? Do some of the functions stop working, or are you just saying that there might be a camera available by then that has some slightly better features? If the latter then I fail to see how that invalidates the choices we make today - there will always be some better features in the future, but if you think that is important then you are completely missing the point of photography. A competent photographer will be able to produce good results with just about any camera that is available today.
Recently I went on holiday to the far east and as I was going to be visiting some areas with a high crime rate I decided to take my 5D mark 3 rather than risk losing my new 5D mark 4. The results I obtained with the 5D mark 3 were excellent and there were only a very few occasions where I missed the ability of my 5D mk 4 to focus in very low light. Overall the 5D mark 3 did very well - not bad for a camera which you believe became obsolete over 5 years ago.

 

[Sharlin]

To think about all the pros who still earn their bread with such antiquated equipment as the 5D3, or even one of the pre-X 1D's, or - gasp - the original 6D! I can't fathom how anyone could pay real money for photos that are obviously technically inferior :

 

[Sarpedon]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.

I agree with you.
But when you have several people starting accounts simply so they can complain about the latest Canon camera, it is hard to not be cynical.
If someone posts and is willing to participate in discussion that is one thing, but when all they do is repeat the same tired old criticisms and don't actually bring anything new to the table I think it is acceptable to call them out. And if that means overreacting to some seriously held opinions then that is collateral damage.
In any social interaction, people 'earn the right' to have their opinions taken seriously and that applies to internet forums as much as meeting people in a bar or at any other social gathering. If at a social gathering someone you did not know decided to criticise something you think seriously about without any pre-amble or any explanation of where they are coming from, would you give them the time of day?

My point wasn't so much that trolls shouldn't be confronted (though I think that's often a waste of time). It's that the "collateral damage" you speak of isn't a minor, incidental by-product of trolls, but a major factor in the tenor of this forum's worst threads; and that it's something that comes not only from dealing with trolls, but from the bad habits and character traits of the people who are lashing out indiscriminately, which is why I said people should take responsibility for their behavior.

To take the scenario you lay out: if some random person came up to me and started rudely criticizing something I thought seriously about, with no preamble, I'd tell him off. But if someone came up to me and stated his disagreement plainly, I wouldn't tell him off. My point is that the second guy in this hypothetical comes to this forum and often gets yelled at, and that people start yelling at the first guy even when he's not there.

I also think some (emphasis on "some"!) of these trolls are just people being a little hysterical because some new camera didn't have the feature they were expecting. Those people should have their mistakes explained to them politely. I've seen that happen and it's much more effective. Too often, though, someone drops in to insult that person and brag childishly about Canon's market share.

Yeah. It is very hard to tell sometimes, maybe a lot of the time - I think part of the problem is the 'true' trolls have created and sustained a narrative, and other people repeat it without realising its provenance or unreliability. I always try to give new people the benefit of the doubt, but I also don't want to be naive. And mostly people do have their mistakes calmly explained, but after a while, it gets very trying. In your scenario, instead of it being face to face, imagine if you got a letter every few days appearing to be from a different person each time, but essentially saying the same thing. Wouldn't you eventually tire of politely replying?

And sure, the sarcastic pre-emptive 'Canon is doomed' posts from regulars aren't very funny but I don't think they make much difference - naysayers pop up anyhow.

I respectfully disagree! Those sarcastic posts pop up all the time. They're in nearly every page of every gear talk thread. One just popped up right now!

I'm also not sure that the trolls are responsible for the narrative. You can see the same complaints echoed in the camera press. The trolls, I think, just exaggerate it. (For instance, the Canon 6D II's dynamic range is perfectly adequate for the majority of scenarios. It isn't terrible by any means. But it is below average in its class. The camera press highlights the latter because comparisons are what they do, and the trolls run with it and exaggerate because that's what they do.)

I get that these people, appearing one after another on so many threads, are trying, but that gets back to my point about people being responsible for their own behavior. When someone's default mode of expression is condescension and sarcasm, something is wrong.

 

[scyrene]

I'm also not sure that the trolls are responsible for the narrative. You can see the same complaints echoed in the camera press. The trolls, I think, just exaggerate it. (For instance, the Canon 6D II's dynamic range is perfectly adequate for the majority of scenarios. It isn't terrible by any means. But it is below average in its class. The camera press highlights the latter because comparisons are what they do, and the trolls run with it and exaggerate because that's what they do.)

I get that these people, appearing one after another on so many threads, are trying, but that gets back to my point about people being responsible for their own behavior. When someone's default mode of expression is condescension and sarcasm, something is wrong.

Well sure, I guess it's more complicated than I made it sound. DPR certainly stokes the fires - and fwiw I think they mostly genuinely believe their own hype re dynamic range etc. And skimming the comments on there, the level of debate here is much better, even with trolls and suchlike - at least things get discussed, dissected, and there are people willing to explain and provide evidence where possible. I think a lot of the trolling is casual folk spun off other forums, who come here and take a pop because they find it amusing somehow.

But as for sarcasm, I'll have to repeat myself - why should the regulars here have infinite patience? Especially when vocal newbies almost immediately reach for terms like 'fanboy' and 'shill', when mostly all people here are doing is saying, hey maybe Canon knows more about selling cameras than randoms on the internet?

With regard to the 6D2 in particular, I think even the most pro-Canon people here have accepted its weaknesses. But it has been perplexing to see the tone of discussion turn around once its DR was shown to be less good than the 5D4's (or 80D's), because all the other reasonable wishes from 6D users were granted, from what I can gather. Even more perplexing is the AF point spread, which is 100% normal for a FF camera and not in any way defincient compared to other Canon bodies or other brands, but which has already been accepted as truth by most of the vocal critics here.

 

[stevelee]

Sarcasm is given credit for the invention of potato chips. Supposedly some wealthy lady kept complaining that the potatoes weren't sliced thin enough. The exasperated chef sliced them ridiculously thin for her.

 

[LonelyBoy]

I'm also not sure that the trolls are responsible for the narrative. You can see the same complaints echoed in the camera press. The trolls, I think, just exaggerate it. (For instance, the Canon 6D II's dynamic range is perfectly adequate for the majority of scenarios. It isn't terrible by any means. But it is below average in its class. The camera press highlights the latter because comparisons are what they do, and the trolls run with it and exaggerate because that's what they do.)

I get that these people, appearing one after another on so many threads, are trying, but that gets back to my point about people being responsible for their own behavior. When someone's default mode of expression is condescension and sarcasm, something is wrong.

Well sure, I guess it's more complicated than I made it sound. DPR certainly stokes the fires - and fwiw I think they mostly genuinely believe their own hype re dynamic range etc. And skimming the comments on there, the level of debate here is much better, even with trolls and suchlike - at least things get discussed, dissected, and there are people willing to explain and provide evidence where possible. I think a lot of the trolling is casual folk spun off other forums, who come here and take a pop because they find it amusing somehow.

But as for sarcasm, I'll have to repeat myself - why should the regulars here have infinite patience? Especially when vocal newbies almost immediately reach for terms like 'fanboy' and 'shill', when mostly all people here are doing is saying, hey maybe Canon knows more about selling cameras than randoms on the internet?

With regard to the 6D2 in particular, I think even the most pro-Canon people here have accepted its weaknesses. But it has been perplexing to see the tone of discussion turn around once its DR was shown to be less good than the 5D4's (or 80D's), because all the other reasonable wishes from 6D users were granted, from what I can gather. Even more perplexing is the AF point spread, which is 100% normal for a FF camera and not in any way defincient compared to other Canon bodies or other brands, but which has already been accepted as truth by most of the vocal critics here.

Amen. And you're not even allowed to point it out.

 

[Quirkz]

Do i spend 5G's on a camera that will be laughable in 6-8 months? Sony will be next with the A7riii.

Why would a camera costing 5G be laughable in 6-8 months? If your opinion of a camera changes just because a manufacturer has brought out another model then that says more about you than it does about the qualities of the camera.

Ironically, Sony is notorious for 'obseleting' it's cameras very quickly with a new model every couple of years

 

[jeffa4444]

I was at a sporting event yesterday I counted twenty two press photographers, one had a Nikon cameras, one had Sony cameras and twenty Canon. I guess Canon must be quaking in their boots at the lack of innovation and competitive products they have in the market!

 

[Talys]

I was at a sporting event yesterday I counted twenty two press photographers, one had a Nikon cameras, one had Sony cameras and twenty Canon. I guess Canon must be quaking in their boots at the lack of innovation and competitive products they have in the market!

As Mikehit pointed out, they're surely all A9's with metabones sporting Canon glass

Many folks who really like other systems acknowledge that the high end Canon glass is superior, but add the caveat, "if you really need that kind of thing". WHY ELSE DO YOU BUY A HIGH END BODY?