"Sony A7R III is Pretty Much the New Canon 5D for Pros"

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,970
502
neuroanatomist said:
[quote author=choosehandsafety.com]Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".
My hand size is 7.4", so pretty much spot-on male average. Sounds like you have small hands, a weak grip, or both.
[/quote]

I wrote about this relaxing and recalibrating my hands/habits to learn a new grip recently here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33528.msg688331#msg688331

If anyone finds the A7/A9 body a good fit for an f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime for day long shooting, you must have small hands to tune of 2-3 sigma smaller than mean. There's just no room for your fingers and you need to make an 'iron claw' hold with your index fingers, middle finger and thumb... just like I used to on my T1i with my 24-70 f/2.8L I. Not fun at all. Pass.

- A
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,091
1,567
Canada
Wait a minute..... does this mean that the Sony A7R III really is better than the 5D?

How does it compare to the 5D2?
 

9VIII

EOR R
Feb 8, 2013
1,843
0
IglooEater said:
neuroanatomist said:
OSOK said:
Sony is immensely popular among the under 25 crowd.
Is the under 25 crowd a big demographic for spending >$3000 on a camera body and hundreds to thousands more on lenses?
I doubt there are any statistics to demonstrate that, however I think his point is that in 60 years, the sub-25 crowd of today will be the only crowd.
That’s an interesting concept, but to use myself as an example, I was over 25 when I bought my first EOS body, though I did have two different Canon P&S bodies before that. One Superzoom I was moderately happy with, and a stupid pocket sized camera that just sucked at everything (except being cheap, which is why I bought it after breaking the control pad on my first camera while camping).
I am (almost) entirely glad the P&S market is dead, for what I was trying to do from the start I should have never used anything but EOS (using a high magnification Macro adapter for the Superzoom, which gave impressive results, but was entirely frustrating to use nonetheless because the camera completely lacked manual focus capabilities).

The question remains, what is the average age of the first time ILC buyer? I had no concept of trying to invest in a system with expensive glass until I was older (even though I really could have started much sooner).

There’s probably a significant percentage of people using Sony bodies just to access old lenses, and by “probably” I mean half the people you see talking about Mirrorless at all are using it with old lenses. The value proposition of getting one body with “infinite” mounting options for hundreds of cheap old lenses is hard to resist (I can’t say it wasn’t a factor in my decision to get a Fuji).

That brings us to the question of how many Mirrorless users have any intention of buying new lenses? (I don’t have any Fuji glass.)
What future does that market actually have?

If people buy Canon glass for Sony bodies, are the just as likely to get a Canon body later?
 

NancyP

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 17, 2013
1,297
14
I can see the appeal of being able to use some old lenses on MILCs. I use old lenses sometimes on my 6D classic. M42 and Nikon F mounts work fine on Canon.

As for size, there is a certain personal preference involved, as well as hand size. I have a size 6 to 6 1/2 in latex gloves, used to use smaller cameras, I like the feel of the "standard" 5/6/7D body. Rebels are too tiny, 1Ds are too heavy (and expensive - I just don't "need" a 1D series camera).
 

9VIII

EOR R
Feb 8, 2013
1,843
0
ahsanford said:
neuroanatomist said:
[quote author=choosehandsafety.com]Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".
My hand size is 7.4", so pretty much spot-on male average. Sounds like you have small hands, a weak grip, or both.
I wrote about this relaxing and recalibrating my hands/habits to learn a new grip recently here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=33528.msg688331#msg688331

If anyone finds the A7/A9 body a good fit for an f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime for day long shooting, you must have small hands to tune of 2-3 sigma smaller than mean. There's just no room for your fingers and you need to make an 'iron claw' hold with your index fingers, middle finger and thumb... just like I used to on my T1i with my 24-70 f/2.8L I. Not fun at all. Pass.

- A
[/quote]

This is something that I’ve always been surprised to hear so many people have so much trouble with.

Starting with the 1100D on a 400f5.6, holding the entire setup by the body is never an option. Even when the camera is facing straight down I never allow the full weight of the lens to pull on the mount.
It was no different when I had a 5D2 (and the mount on the 5D2 already felt sloppy in comparison).

Regardless of whether or not your camera “looks” like the mount is going to rip off with a big lens attached, I can only imagine how much stress is going into the mount using a 70-200f2.8 and gripping just the body. I know I’ve seen people do it lots in videos, but I guarantee even a 1D will be flexing the mount, even the EF mount is just not big enough, and heaven forbid a Nikon user try anything similar.

You hold the lens, and the body just floats on the back. The 40mm Pancake and included Kit lens are my only lenses too small to be used as the primary grip.
The camera grip is mostly just a surface for more buttons and to help you aim.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,091
1,567
Canada
neuroanatomist said:
Hand sizes for males range from 6.25" to 8.1" with an average hand size of 7.44". Female hand sizes overlap, but are generally somewhat smaller, with an average size of 6.77".

My hand size is 7.4", so pretty much spot-on male average. Sounds like you have small hands, a weak grip, or both.
My hand size is 8.6". A disadvantage when trying to fumble with controls on tiny cameras, but fortunately, (tonight is Halloween), an advantage dressing up as the Frankenstein monster :)
 

tiggy@mac.com

Pentax K-1000
Jan 20, 2014
484
159
Thetford, VT
www.ForestMetrix.com
I agree that the form factor and the lens selection prevent me from seriously considering a switch, but I do have to say that they're really knocking down the deal-breakers. A couple years ago it looked insurmountable, but now there are just two or three things that would prevent this from being better than my 5D4...

- Better glass selection and/or adapted glass that performs decently in autofocusing/fps departments
- Form factor that allows for long use with heavy lenses with large hands (I am NOT a fan of the 1dx-type cinder block form factors and weights, but something more normal would be needed)
- Complete service department re-do. Sony is truly awful here. Personal experience both buying from them and - long ago - working for them. I'll also throw into this category a general reliability/toughness issue. My 1DX has thrown from a golf cart onto a metal bar by a 4-year-old (with a 6-pound lens on it), and the resulting dent appears to have affected its function not at all.

Sony just fixed:
- Battery life
- Menu system insanity
- Lack of joystick
- 2 cards
- Menu access during card writing
- FPS

At this pace, I expect they will very soon become a quite reasonable choice.
 

candc

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 22, 2013
1,263
6
Wautoma, WI USA.
I like the size of the a7rii with normal size lenses. Its about the same as the old film cameras like the ae1-p that I started out with. Its the grip that's the problem, there is not enough finger space between it and the lens. I think they should move the mount over to the side more. I've never used an a6000 but I think that's the way they are and I don't see as many complaints about them.

The lens selection is quite good nowadays. Sony has come out with some good ones lately and there are the baitis and loxia lines. I have been using the 12-24 f/4 and 55 f/1.8 the most lately. Most ef canon and sigma lenses work well and I also use my fd lenses. the fd 50 f/1.2l, the fd 80-200 f/4l, fd 28 f/2.8 are very good. You can't beat the Sony for mf lens use. I recently picked up the laowa 15 f/2 and like it a lot. The new 24-105 and 100-400 look great and are on my radar.

Sony is missing supertelephoto fe lenses. I am not sure I would want to be using an Fe camera with those anyway so I think I will stick with canon for that.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
tiggy@mac.com said:
Sony just fixed:
- Battery life
- Menu system insanity
- Lack of joystick
- 2 cards
- Menu access during card writing
- FPS

At this pace, I expect they will very soon become a quite reasonable choice.
I hope so, competition is good for us customers.
 

nonac

EOS RP
Apr 19, 2012
284
0
56
Missouri
martybeckphotography.com
Ive never even held a Sony in my hands, but I can tell from looking at it that it would not work for me ergonomically. I shoot lots of sports freelance for local newspapers and that tiny little body looks very uncomfortable. My 1dx is perfect, and I can't shoot my 5d3 or 7d mkII without the grips on them because they feel awkward without them. I hope when Canon finally comes out with a "Pro" mirrorless, the form factor is close to the same.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,558
1,994
9VIII said:
Starting with the 1100D on a 400f5.6, holding the entire setup by the body is never an option. Even when the camera is facing straight down I never allow the full weight of the lens to pull on the mount.
It was no different when I had a 5D2 (and the mount on the 5D2 already felt sloppy in comparison).

Regardless of whether or not your camera “looks” like the mount is going to rip off with a big lens attached, I can only imagine how much stress is going into the mount using a 70-200f2.8 and gripping just the body. I know I’ve seen people do it lots in videos, but I guarantee even a 1D will be flexing the mount, even the EF mount is just not big enough, and heaven forbid a Nikon user try anything similar.

You hold the lens, and the body just floats on the back. The 40mm Pancake and included Kit lens are my only lenses too small to be used as the primary grip.
The camera grip is mostly just a surface for more buttons and to help you aim.
Although you can only imagine the stress on the mount, no doubt Canon's engineers have tested it and considered it in their design parameters. The lens mount will hold a 70-200/2.8 just fine. Although a lens of that mass does have a tripod collar/foot for balance on a tripod, the body+lens combo is designed to be carried on a neck strap attached to the strap lugs on camera body. Canon provides no other way to carry the combo (although personally, I sometimes attach a BlackRapid strap to the tripod foot). Conversely, with heavier supertele lenses like the 300/400 f/2.8 and 500/600 f/4, there are strap lugs on the lens itself and Canon includes a wide strap to carry the lens. From that, it's clear that the mount is designed to support lenses except the large superteles.
 

candc

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 22, 2013
1,263
6
Wautoma, WI USA.
neuroanatomist said:
9VIII said:
Starting with the 1100D on a 400f5.6, holding the entire setup by the body is never an option. Even when the camera is facing straight down I never allow the full weight of the lens to pull on the mount.
It was no different when I had a 5D2 (and the mount on the 5D2 already felt sloppy in comparison).

Regardless of whether or not your camera “looks” like the mount is going to rip off with a big lens attached, I can only imagine how much stress is going into the mount using a 70-200f2.8 and gripping just the body. I know I’ve seen people do it lots in videos, but I guarantee even a 1D will be flexing the mount, even the EF mount is just not big enough, and heaven forbid a Nikon user try anything similar.

You hold the lens, and the body just floats on the back. The 40mm Pancake and included Kit lens are my only lenses too small to be used as the primary grip.
The camera grip is mostly just a surface for more buttons and to help you aim.
Although you can only imagine the stress on the mount, no doubt Canon's engineers have tested it and considered it in their design parameters. The lens mount will hold a 70-200/2.8 just fine. Although a lens of that mass does have a tripod collar/foot for balance on a tripod, the body+lens combo is designed to be carried on a neck strap attached to the strap lugs on camera body. Canon provides no other way to carry the combo (although personally, I sometimes attach a BlackRapid strap to the tripod foot). Conversely, with heavier supertele lenses like the 300/400 f/2.8 and 500/600 f/4, there are strap lugs on the lens itself and Canon includes a wide strap to carry the lens. From that, it's clear that the mount is designed to support lenses except the large superteles.
I've noticed that some lenses seem sloppy on the camera. You would think that's a big deal and cause serious iq problems. I don't recall reading any articles about how mount flexing or a sloppy lens fit affects image output. Maybe its not as big a deal as it seems to be?
 

Takingshots

Eos R
Feb 6, 2015
80
2
Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,558
1,994
Takingshots said:
perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.
Why should Canon change a strategy that's manifestly succeeding?

Oh, right...because you want them to make a camera just for you. Well, good luck with that... ::)
 

JBSF

EOS 80D
Dec 19, 2014
110
52
Takingshots said:
Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.
You mean, let's get Sony to change the A7r3 into a Canon, so that we can convince Canon to change the 5D4 into a Sony.
 

docsmith

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 17, 2010
853
235
I find it interesting that the general assumption is "Good for Sony = Bad for Canon," iplying that Sony's growing market share is eroding Canon's. But that isn't the case. Sony really is making inroads, but it seems to be at the expense of other manufacturers and not Canon.

So, if anything, "good for Sony = bad for Nikon, etc"
 

Takingshots

Eos R
Feb 6, 2015
80
2
Mikehit said:
Takingshots said:
perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.
in what way?
What is lacking in Canon 6D mk ii (no 4K, dynamic range etc) or Canon 5D mk iv (not full 4K, better dynamic range, etc) ..? Listen to consumers' voice and not limiting its capabilities. Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,970
502
Takingshots said:
Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.
A battery grip would help for hand width, but not for finger length. Either the grip is too close to the mount for your fingers, or the grip is not thick as it ought to better pull the knuckle portion of your hand further away from the mount. (It's easier to just point out how close the mount is to the grip.)

- A
 

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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,558
1,994
Takingshots said:
Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...
Yes, they announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales...in one country (the US), for a two month period (Jan-Feb, 2017). Do you have any data on global market, or on a more meaningful time frame than two months? If not, stating that they're #2 on FF ILC sales is overreaching, much as you can look at a broken analog clock at one of two specific times during the day and conclude it is accurate.