"Sony A7R III is Pretty Much the New Canon 5D for Pros"

[ahsanford]

Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...

Yes, they announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales...in one country (the US), for a two month period (Jan-Feb, 2017). Do you have any data on global market, or on a more meaningful time frame than two months? If not, stating that they're #2 on FF ILC sales is overreaching, much as you can look at a broken analog clock at one of two specific times during the day and conclude it is accurate.

Neuro, don't take this away from Sony. They've worked so hard to be #1 in the #2 business.

- A

 

[Mikehit]

Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...

Yes, they announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales...in one country (the US), for a two month period (Jan-Feb, 2017). Do you have any data on global market, or on a more meaningful time frame than two months? If not, stating that they're #2 on FF ILC sales is overreaching, much as you can look at a broken analog clock at one of two specific times during the day and conclude it is accurate.

That 2-month period is also when they had a big discount promotion.

I think we can safely assume Canon know about people wanting 4k etc. And the 5DIV sensor has already been proven to be good enough that the differences to Sony sensors are pretty much meaningless (yes, inferior but not meaningfully so). And Canon have decided that these are not the major factors in the market (for some people, yes, for the majority probably not).

The only way Canon (or any company) will listen is not in people emailing them but people buying competitor products. They don;t care about people who say 'your products are inferior but I will buy them anyway'.

But that has been done to death so many times.

 

[SecureGSM]

Are you saying that Canon 5D IV dynamic range isn’t wide enough for you?

Check the following image then. It is too large for me to attach but here is the link:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8NNYvxCULh3lKydY2

This scene has a very wide DR from bright blue sky to dark areas indoor. I have taken 3 bracketed exposures just in case but ended up processing a single 0EV exposure instead. There is plenty of juice and an extra 1stop of DR hidden in 5D IV dual pixel RAW files.

What is lacking in Canon 6D mk ii (no 4K, dynamic range etc) or Canon 5D mk iv (not full 4K, better dynamic range, etc) ..? Listen to consumers' voice and not limiting its capabilities. Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...

 

[Takingshots]

Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...

Sony is working hard to move up their sales... the trend is there. And now with their A7Riii, it seems to show that they are adding features their customers are calling for (but not everything given in consideration to their A9 mkt).
Someone on the forum stated that Nikon(not Canon) affected by Sony progress(sales). Sony is lacking in lens which Canon excels in and I also love Canon colors.
Will Canon be still number 1?; I hope so.
Only time will tell in this rapid changing tech world ... On a separate note I remember "Rim" once was a force in the business world with their iconic clickety keys... Now under a different name, they have moved into a software company (hardware is made by other company).
Yes, they announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales...in one country (the US), for a two month period (Jan-Feb, 2017). Do you have any data on global market, or on a more meaningful time frame than two months? If not, stating that they're #2 on FF ILC sales is overreaching, much as you can look at a broken analog clock at one of two specific times during the day and conclude it is accurate.

 

[ahsanford]

Only time will tell in this rapid changing tech world ... On a separate note I remember "Rim" once was a force in the business world with their iconic clickety keys... Now under a different name, they have moved into a software company (hardware is made by other company).

Mirrorless is not to SLR what iOS/Android was to Rim. The notion that Canon may similarly get relegated to the dustbin of history based on nothing more than Sony's perceived innovation momentum is farcical.

If we're talking about computational photography, lightfield stuff, sure -- that's a next-level / someday tech that could fundamentally alter how we take pictures. But Sony's just offering new cameras at a faster rate than Canon with more 'horsepower' on the spec sheets (at presumably lower margins, higher excess/obsolescence charges, etc.).

In that sense, Sony is fighting a conventional war against a much larger and more savvy adversary. I wish them luck.

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

What is lacking in Canon 6D mk ii (no 4K, dynamic range etc) or Canon 5D mk iv (not full 4K, better dynamic range, etc) ..? Listen to consumers' voice and not limiting its capabilities. Sony is now Rank #2 in full frame bodies in sales ...

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

At most the D850 has 0.8 of a stop advantage over the 5D MkIV, at ISO 40. The biggest difference between the two is in the high ISO range where the 5D MkIV bests the D850 by a full stop.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850

 

[ahsanford]

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

+1. Sony and Nikon folks stopped talking about DR. This year, all they are talking about is FPS / megapixels / throughput in the $3k non-gripped FF market space. (Didn't you get the memo?)

- A

P.S.

 

[privatebydesign]

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

+1. Sony and Nikon folks stopped talking about DR. This year, all they are talking about is FPS / megapixels / throughput in the $3k non-gripped FF market space. (Didn't you get the memo?)

- A

P.S.

Ah yes, the fps, IF you go to 12 bit RAW's OR spend $1,000 on a grip, battery, and charger.

I read the small print on the memo

 

[SecureGSM]

There is an additional stop of information hidden in the auxiliary sub-frame of 5D IV that can be utilised. This negates D850 0.8 of a stop low ISO advantage. The sensor in 5D IV is very good.

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Canon-dual-pixel-technology
https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/canon-dual-pixel-mode-highlights-are-there

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

At most the D850 has 0.8 of a stop advantage over the 5D MkIV, at ISO 40. The biggest difference between the two is in the high ISO range where the 5D MkIV bests the D850 by a full stop.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850

 

[privatebydesign]

There is an additional stop of information hidden in the auxiliary sub-frame of 5D IV that can be utilised. This negates D850 0.8 of a stop low ISO advantage. The sensor in 5D IV is very good.

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Canon-dual-pixel-technology
https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/canon-dual-pixel-mode-highlights-are-there

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

At most the D850 has 0.8 of a stop advantage over the 5D MkIV, at ISO 40. The biggest difference between the two is in the high ISO range where the 5D MkIV bests the D850 by a full stop.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850

Yes that dual pixel RAW has so much potential, if only it was more easily liberated.

Canon remind me of their 5D MkII Live View - oh we can turn that into video capture if you think it will help sales - serendipity. Now we have class leading DR across the board in hefty RAW files that nothing seems able to use effectively.

I waited until the 1 series got dual pixel in the 1DX MkII because I believe we will be able to revisit those bloated RAW files in the future and pull that extra stop of goodness out of them.

I know when LR can extract it I will use it and damn the file size. Personally, for what I do, I'd rather have twice the file size at 21MP with one more stop of DR than twice the pixels and the same DR. However when the 5DSR MkII comes out with on sensor ADC and dual pixel RAW I'll get one if for nothing else than archiving thousands of slides.

 

[bhf3737]

Alot of good reviews at the pre-launch on the Sony A7riii. The pre-orders for the camera at B and H is good. Perhaps adding the battery grip for people with big hands would help. Change the menu system to Canon format and update Metabones to synn fluidly with this camera, perhaps we could force Canon to rethink their strategy on their current bodies.

I couldn't find "independent" reviews on the Sony A7riii, yet. The reviews so far were "staged" ones by those who were invited by Sony to their launch party and they used the camera in a controlled environment. They don't count for good field test reviews by professionals.
Sony's strategy to enter the market is to pay a a few bloggers (not photographers) and get paid by the mass enthusiasts! It may work for them in short term because they seek their cash cows among younger generation and tech savvy crowd. It is much much different than Canon's Explores of Light program which strictly relies on pros to advertise for its products.
Sony's ILC offering so far has been all about "try this camera, you will like it." Some tech and photo fans may fall for it and like to be part of the experiment. Many are unknowingly paying Sony, Metabones, etc., to beta-test their products. Imagine lab rats paying pharma companies to get new drugs tested on them every few months!!

 

[SecureGSM]

oh, you can utilise that extra stop in 5D IV Dual Pixel RAW files now. the feature is available for longer than a year. Current version of RawDigger will export sub-frames as a separate TIFF files to work with. exposure blending is easy.

p.s. I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.

Yes that dual pixel RAW has so much potential, if only it was more easily liberated.

Canon remind me of their 5D MkII Live View - oh we can turn that into video capture if you think it will help sales - serendipity. Now we have class leading DR across the board in hefty RAW files that nothing seems able to use effectively.

I waited until the 1 series got dual pixel in the 1DX MkII because I believe we will be able to revisit those bloated RAW files in the future and pull that extra stop of goodness out of them.

I know when LR can extract it I will use it and damn the file size. Personally, for what I do, I'd rather have twice the file size at 21MP with one more stop of DR than twice the pixels and the same DR. However when the 5DSR MkII comes out with on sensor ADC and dual pixel RAW I'll get one if for nothing else than archiving thousands of slides.

 

[Jopa]

I couldn't find "independent" reviews on the Sony A7riii, yet. The reviews so far were "staged" ones by those who were invited by Sony to their launch party and they used the camera in a controlled environment.

Temperature controlled environment is crucial for Sony

 

[Jopa]

I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.

Knowing how Canon releases firmware updates, I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[ahsanford]

I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.

Knowing how Canon releases firmware updates, I doubt it will ever happen.

Wow, I haven't seen Sexual Harassment Panda in ages. Nice work.

- A

 

[scyrene]

I've tried both the A9 and A7II, and when Sony makes a camera that I'm happy to hold in my hand for 12+ hours, I might consider one.
Until then, I want to avoid great pain in my right hand and I'll stick with Canon.

I learned decades ago that spec sheets don't make great cameras that are actually useable for heavy duty usage.

When Canon makes a FF camera that is comfortable for my hands, I might consider them. Until then, I will stick with manufacturers who make more sensible sized cameras, such as Sony.

Everyone varies. If you have large hands (like most alpha males do), then Canikon is good for you. If you have smaller hands (such as average males or most women) then they are clumsy and unwieldy. Sony is far from perfect, but it is a lot better than the giant FF cameras that Canikon make.

Personally, for me, the best camera as far as hand fit is concerned, has been Samsung's NX1. It has the perfect dimensions for my grip, it is an extension of my arm. None of Canon or Nikon's enthusiast cameras come close in comfort level when holding them, they all are so big that they feel like they are going to slip out of my hand.

Slightly adversarial tone there. I have smaller-than-average hands and have never had a problem with Canon FF cameras (I've never used a 1-series though). I think it's possible to get used to things, I don't really believe that a given size is intrinsically best for a given person.

 

[deleteme]

Sony has done a lot of catching up in a very short period of time.

This latest iteration actually makes a lot of sense to me for several reasons.
It now has the native lenses I need as a working pro. The addition of the 24-105 f4 is significant as this is a workhorse for so many pros.
The 70-200 lenses are there and the 12-24 and 16-35 zooms also have good reputations.

We now have dual slots.
New battery.
A better EVF
Improved ergonomics ( though I will rent one to use it for extended periods to see)

As I use only manual strobes the lack of TTL and HSS third party or Sony gear is irrelevant.

An articulating screen is a huge improvement over the 5D series and a silent shutter only adds to the advantages.

The real issue is service. Sony claims to be establishing a pro service system. If it matches or exceeds Canon or Nikon then they will be a force to be reckoned with.

Already their competition has to recalibrate their inaugural FF MILCs as Sony keeps moving the goal posts.

 

[Jopa]

I don't think you can pull this trick with 1DX II files as Dual Pixel RAW mode is available for 5D IV exclusively for now.

Knowing how Canon releases firmware updates, I doubt it will ever happen.

Wow, I haven't seen Sexual Harassment Panda in ages. Nice work.

- A

I still watch South Park but I think the good seasons/episodes are ended with Chef's death.

 

[bclaff]

...

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

At most the D850 has 0.8 of a stop advantage over the 5D MkIV, at ISO 40. The biggest difference between the two is in the high ISO range where the 5D MkIV bests the D850 by a full stop.
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850

Slow to reply, but huh?
First, surely you meant ISO 50 not ISO 40 but that chart looks like the attached.

The only place that's even close to 1 stop difference is ISO 102400 where the 5D Mark IV invokes noise reduction in the raw.

 

[OSOK]

The DR difference is a dead horse, stop trying to flog it.

+1. Sony and Nikon folks stopped talking about DR. This year, all they are talking about is FPS / megapixels / throughput in the $3k non-gripped FF market space. (Didn't you get the memo?)

- A

P.S.

Ah yes, the fps, IF you go to 12 bit RAW's OR spend $1,000 on a grip, battery, and charger.

I read the small print on the memo

What a scam!

The D850 is approximately a $4,300 camera at that point. The A9 is $4,850 gripped.

Authorized dealer "street price" on the 1DX2 is $5,300.

While that is roughly $1,000 more than the D850 and $550 more than the A9 - the value is no comparison whatsoever in favor of the 1DX2.

The Youtubers can go on and on about specs and Sony/Nikon will win the PR war -- when it comes time for opening up the wallet, I do not believe the online popularity will translate to real sales.

I figure that anyone willing to break that $4,000 threshold on a body, is able to go another $1,500 to get an all out, 100% pro flagship beast and give up nothing.

I also figure that anyone breaking that $4,000 threshold will also do serious research, and also have a very serious understanding of their actual needs and not be swayed by Youtube fluff and reviews.

That said ...

The D850 is getting a lot of credit for being a 9fps camera, but in reality it is a 7fps which puts it on par with the 5D4, albeit with a lot more resolution...but they don't win on speed. Adding $1000 puts this rig into a different class of camera which puts it in that no-man's land where you might as well pay more for a flagship at that point.

All the D850's 9fps does is saves Nikon users from having to buy a D500 to get sports speed. It saves them $800, and they get it all in one body, plus a grip and of course even more battery life. All at full rez. That's pretty cool.

Sony is a joke with all their 12-bit shenanigans. This is basically misleading in this day and age of 14bit raw. For all the big talk about big megapixels and huge dynamic range, and speed....it is all thrown away by 12 bit. FINE PRINT as they say....