Sony a7R3 Review and 5D Mark IV Comparisons | Dustin

ecqns

EOS T7i
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
 

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AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,615
2,853
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,082
403
AlanF said:
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.
 

ecqns

EOS T7i
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
3kramd5 said:
AlanF said:
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.
Right just like every other DSLR and Mirrorless has had sensor shake or something like it since then. Point is a mirror isn't going to protect your sensor all of the time. Seems like some are just reaching to find faults with non-Canon cameras.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,615
2,853
3kramd5 said:
AlanF said:
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.
Of course they are not unique to SLR. It is pretty pointless, however, comparing the dust resistance of a state-of-the-art modern sensor with an ancient one to evaluate the modern mirrorless vs the modern mirror box, as is being done in the review. The mirror is protective against dust for the 5DIV vs A9, and that is the main point of Tyler.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,082
403
AlanF said:
3kramd5 said:
AlanF said:
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.
Of course they are not unique to SLR. It is pretty pointless, however, comparing the dust resistance of a state-of-the-art modern sensor with an ancient one to evaluate the modern mirrorless vs the modern mirror box, as is being done in the review. The mirror is protective against dust for the 5DIV vs A9, and that is the main point of Tyler.
I’m willing to stipulate that it might be, since the mirror provides additional surfaces where dust can settle. However I’m also well aware that the mirror doesn’t prevent dust ingress into the compartment (it’s hardly a “tortuous path,” which is the terminology often used in the design of electronics where sand and dust are of concern), and that any dust in the compartment has a propensity to move, no matter the material lining the compartment, when the mirror actuates.

If a mirror offers protection, it’s unquantifiable without lab testing, but I’m betting marginal relative to other methods. Anecdotally, I found my mirrorless camera (sold my A7Rii when I bought a 1Dx) no more prone to dust than any SLR I’ve ever owned.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,615
2,853
3kramd5 said:
AlanF said:
3kramd5 said:
AlanF said:
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.
Of course they are not unique to SLR. It is pretty pointless, however, comparing the dust resistance of a state-of-the-art modern sensor with an ancient one to evaluate the modern mirrorless vs the modern mirror box, as is being done in the review. The mirror is protective against dust for the 5DIV vs A9, and that is the main point of Tyler.
I’m willing to stipulate that it might be, since the mirror provides additional surfaces where dust can settle. However I’m also well aware that the mirror doesn’t prevent dust ingress into the compartment (it’s hardly a “tortuous path,” which is the terminology often used in the design of electronics where sand and dust are of concern), and that any dust in the compartment has a propensity to move, no matter the material lining the compartment, when the mirror actuates.

If a mirror offers protection, it’s unquantifiable without lab testing, but I’m betting marginal relative to other methods. Anecdotally, I found my mirrorless camera (sold my A7Rii when I bought a 1Dx) no more prone to dust than any SLR I’ve ever owned.
A highly experienced professional who shoots both Sony and Canon states at length and with examples how his 5DIV has so much better dust resistance that it is the one factor that stops him going over completely to Sony as he needs to change lenses frequently in the field. I use a mirrorless for some of my shooting, an M5 following on from an M, and fortunately it would seem rarely change lenses out of doors and I have no problems with dust. I find his experience extremely useful as I have been thinking of having another system for nature photography and it's made me consider options and types of lenses for use outdoors. Anecdotal evidence evidence should remain what it is, anecdotal. Quantitative measurements are what I do for my living as a scientist, but I don't need means and standard deviations to choose between what I can see or don't see and doesn't need quantifying.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,082
403
That’s fine, just so long as we’re clear that a professional’s experiences are no less anecdotal than anyone else’s. He asserts that the dust was there *because* of the lack of the mirror, but that’s merely conjecture on his part. He didn’t state that he changed lenses on his SLR at the same time as or under the same conditions as his A9.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,615
2,853
He's not writing a scientific paper, he's offering advice based on his experience, and I shall take that advice into consideration in my choice of gear suitable for my purposes.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
Dustin,

Thanks for such a thorough and well-written review. I'm curious: what do you find as the autofocus speed difference between adapted and native lens on A7R3 using the MC-11?

Thanks!
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
434
AlanF said:
He's not writing a scientific paper, he's offering advice based on his experience, and I shall take that advice into consideration in my choice of gear suitable for my purposes.
I had a mirrorless and DSLR at the same time from about 2014 thru 2016 and while I did not do any scientific testing on the matter, I believe the mirrorless had significantly bigger dust issues, although none of the issues were serious enough so that the next time I turned the camera on or off, the dust was removed with the dust removal shake.

Having just returned from taking pics outside in the bright sunshine (and snow), the scenes were quite difficult to see thru the EVF. While I enjoy my mirrorless cameras, there are shortcomings in certain conditions.
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,029
331
3kramd5 said:
AlanF said:
ecqns said:
AlanF said:
Play the video from 8:50 to 10:35. Starts with: "A huge thing that that nobody talks about that much is sensor dust .....
My inclination is to take seriously a reviewer who sees an actual phenomenon and describes it in depth.
Yeah dust can be a problem if you don't know what you are doing or don't take proper precautions. This is an image from my 5D in 2006 (the original) my 2nd DSLR, first day of a 2 week trip got a ton of dust from changing lenses in windy conditions by the water. The 5D wasn't a mirrorless camera, I didn't bring a rocket blower so I had to do a ton of spotting. Dust can get in any camera. I've used all sorts of Canon DSLRs and now 3 different Sonys and dust isn't any more or any less of an issue for me. I like that I can see the sensor now.
The Canon Integrated Cleaning System was introduced in 2006 - http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_integrated_cleaning_system.do
Your original 5D, introduced in 2005, predated ICS. Further, the fluorine coating to repel dust wasn't introduced until the 5DII, and there have been subsequent modifications to prevent dust sticking. You original 5D is not a good example to cite for dust on a sensor since there have been tons of improvements in the last 13 years.
Perhaps, but it is certainly appropriate when discussing how much influence the presence of a mirror has on protecting a sensor, or the inset of a sensor within the body for that matter.

Those later improvements, which made a significant difference, are not unique to SLR.
Back then I avoided 5D because it had the nickname dust magnet. This has changed completely with 40D, 5DII, etc
 

bod

EOS T7i
Dec 5, 2013
55
7
Dustin thanks for another one of your excellent reviews which are always informative and accessible to the reader. Like you I have owned the EOS M for some time for the same reason as you and like many on the forum I am awaiting a good FF mirrorless from Canon. As you have noted in several reviews a key feature is a really good EVF, in my case because a high percentage of my lenses are MF and I like the process of MF. I also like using tilt/shift lenses and again an EVF would seem to be a potentially very helpful tool. Your review of the a7R3 is interesting not only because of the EVF but the AF performance. I was interested to learn more of its eye AF feature performance and the improved frame rate and buffer capacity because if I buy a FF mirrorless I want it to be widely useable in different photographic scenarios. Whilst my first choice has been and remains to wait for a Canon FF mirrorless if one does not materialise soon, getting the a7R3 when there is a good $ deal on offer will be an option.

Can I ask for more explanation as to how the zoom feature works in the EVF? Such as:
1) How do you activate the zoom/what controls do you use?
2) What settings are there to control the zoom feature (e.g. zoom extent)?
3) After you take a shot, what happens next time? Does the EVF retain the zoom or must it be reactivated again using the same sequence?
4) What point/region does the EVF zoom about?
5) Can you move the zoom region by touch dragging on the viewfinder?
6) Is there any "auto zoom" type feature like the EOS M5 has with native EFM lenses. For example can you set the body up to zoom automatically when you half press the shutter button?

I appreciate any info that you can provide on this. Thanks again. Phil
 

TWI by Dustin Abbott

EOS 5D MK IV
Oct 4, 2012
2,669
17
www.dustinabbott.net
Talys said:
Dustin,

Thanks for such a thorough and well-written review. I'm curious: what do you find as the autofocus speed difference between adapted and native lens on A7R3 using the MC-11?

Thanks!
The a7R3's focus system provides a much better experience than I've previously seen with the MC-11, but ultimately quality of focus is still lens-specific. Newer lenses tend to do better. The new Tamron SP primes focus great. The Canon 35L II is very good, and the 100-400L II is okay, the Canon 100L is meh.
 

TWI by Dustin Abbott

EOS 5D MK IV
Oct 4, 2012
2,669
17
www.dustinabbott.net
bod said:
Dustin thanks for another one of your excellent reviews which are always informative and accessible to the reader. Like you I have owned the EOS M for some time for the same reason as you and like many on the forum I am awaiting a good FF mirrorless from Canon. As you have noted in several reviews a key feature is a really good EVF, in my case because a high percentage of my lenses are MF and I like the process of MF. I also like using tilt/shift lenses and again an EVF would seem to be a potentially very helpful tool. Your review of the a7R3 is interesting not only because of the EVF but the AF performance. I was interested to learn more of its eye AF feature performance and the improved frame rate and buffer capacity because if I buy a FF mirrorless I want it to be widely useable in different photographic scenarios. Whilst my first choice has been and remains to wait for a Canon FF mirrorless if one does not materialise soon, getting the a7R3 when there is a good $ deal on offer will be an option.

Can I ask for more explanation as to how the zoom feature works in the EVF? Such as:
1) How do you activate the zoom/what controls do you use?
2) What settings are there to control the zoom feature (e.g. zoom extent)?
3) After you take a shot, what happens next time? Does the EVF retain the zoom or must it be reactivated again using the same sequence?
4) What point/region does the EVF zoom about?
5) Can you move the zoom region by touch dragging on the viewfinder?
6) Is there any "auto zoom" type feature like the EOS M5 has with native EFM lenses. For example can you set the body up to zoom automatically when you half press the shutter button?

I appreciate any info that you can provide on this. Thanks again. Phil
The nice thing about Sony is that you map most features (including focus zoom) to a number of buttons. I personally have it mapped to the AEL button. You do have choices about magnification level and what area of the image is magnified, and even choices on whether you want a color overlay added (I mostly don't use Focus Peaking as I feel it makes the shooting process less organic). Native mount manual focus lenses (with electronics) will trigger an automatic zoom when you move the MF ring, but not third party lenses. It's about as good as it gets right now for MF, particularly when you consider you also get true image stabilization on those lenses to boot.
 

bwud

EOS RP
Sep 3, 2014
305
10
TWI by Dustin Abbott said:
bod said:
Dustin thanks for another one of your excellent reviews which are always informative and accessible to the reader. Like you I have owned the EOS M for some time for the same reason as you and like many on the forum I am awaiting a good FF mirrorless from Canon. As you have noted in several reviews a key feature is a really good EVF, in my case because a high percentage of my lenses are MF and I like the process of MF. I also like using tilt/shift lenses and again an EVF would seem to be a potentially very helpful tool. Your review of the a7R3 is interesting not only because of the EVF but the AF performance. I was interested to learn more of its eye AF feature performance and the improved frame rate and buffer capacity because if I buy a FF mirrorless I want it to be widely useable in different photographic scenarios. Whilst my first choice has been and remains to wait for a Canon FF mirrorless if one does not materialise soon, getting the a7R3 when there is a good $ deal on offer will be an option.

Can I ask for more explanation as to how the zoom feature works in the EVF? Such as:
1) How do you activate the zoom/what controls do you use?
2) What settings are there to control the zoom feature (e.g. zoom extent)?
3) After you take a shot, what happens next time? Does the EVF retain the zoom or must it be reactivated again using the same sequence?
4) What point/region does the EVF zoom about?
5) Can you move the zoom region by touch dragging on the viewfinder?
6) Is there any "auto zoom" type feature like the EOS M5 has with native EFM lenses. For example can you set the body up to zoom automatically when you half press the shutter button?

I appreciate any info that you can provide on this. Thanks again. Phil
The nice thing about Sony is that you map most features (including focus zoom) to a number of buttons. I personally have it mapped to the AEL button. You do have choices about magnification level and what area of the image is magnified, and even choices on whether you want a color overlay added (I mostly don't use Focus Peaking as I feel it makes the shooting process less organic). Native mount manual focus lenses (with electronics) will trigger an automatic zoom when you move the MF ring, but not third party lenses. It's about as good as it gets right now for MF, particularly when you consider you also get true image stabilization on those lenses to boot.
Adding to Dustin’s response to Bod’s questions:

Regarding (1) and (6): AF lenses won’t let you manually initiate EVF zoom unless they’ve been switched to manual focus (silly programmatic decision IMO). Therefore I have the C2 button set to toggle AF/MF, and the C1 button to focus magnify.

Regarding (2): I’ve only used it with manual triggering, during which progressively zooms in 3 times. I don’t believe you have any control over it. Once you have reached the largest magnification, the next tap returns to the full image.

Regarding (3): magnify disables after you take a photo

Regarding (4): in MF, it defaults to the center, but you can move around with the thumbstick. In DMF, I believe it magnifies in the area of the last AF acquisition, but I could be mistaken.

Regarding (5): good question. Never tried. My touch screen is disabled.
 

bod

EOS T7i
Dec 5, 2013
55
7
Thanks Dustin and bwud for the helpful feedback.

bwud said:
Regarding (5): good question. Never tried. My touch screen is disabled.
Interested that you disable the touch screen. I noted Dustin's comments on the screen in his review. Why do you disable your screen?
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
bod said:
Thanks Dustin and bwud for the helpful feedback.

bwud said:
Regarding (5): good question. Never tried. My touch screen is disabled.
Interested that you disable the touch screen. I noted Dustin's comments on the screen in his review. Why do you disable your screen?
I've used the A7R2 touchscreen for a couple of full days, and I hated it. If it's like that, I would probably disable the A7R3 touchscreen and not bother with it too :D

We take for granted in the Canon world touchscreens that more or less work the way you expect them to; I think, not so much on the A7R2.
 

bwud

EOS RP
Sep 3, 2014
305
10
bod said:
Thanks Dustin and bwud for the helpful feedback.

bwud said:
Regarding (5): good question. Never tried. My touch screen is disabled.
Interested that you disable the touch screen. I noted Dustin's comments on the screen in his review. Why do you disable your screen?
If I shot with the rear display things may be different, but mainly, the location of the screen doesn’t work with my hand placement. Also I shoot with my left eye, so there isn’t a clean place to shoehorn in my finger.

Additionally, I don’t like the lack of sensory feedback. I’m not against touch panels for camera controls, but so far it doesn’t work well for me.

Talys said:
I've used the A7R2 touchscreen for a couple of full days, and I hated it. If it's like that, I would probably disable the A7R3 touchscreen and not bother with it too :D
A7rii doesn’t have a touch screen, so yes that would be frustrating...