Sony Announces Addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW Still Image Capture for New A Cameras

Canon Rumors Guy

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
7,687
343
Canada
www.canonrumors.com
HTML:
Sony Electronics, a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer, has today announced user selectable Compressed and Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW image capture will be featured in the new α7S II once it arrives in stores this October.</p>
<p>Additionally, they have announced plans to add user selectable compressed or uncompressed 14-Bit RAW still image capture via firmware update to additional cameras beginning with the recently introduced α7R II full-frame mirrorless model.</p>
<p>“The voice of our α community remains the most important guiding force of our product development plans,” said Neal Manowitz, Deputy Vice President for Digital Imaging at Sony Electronics. “The addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW processing is a direct result of customer feedback. Widely requested by photo and video enthusiasts, we believe the choice of RAW processing types will further elevate the performance of these extraordinary cameras.”</p>
<p>The α7S II and α7R II are compatible with Sony’s growing lineup of α -mount lenses, which now totals 63 different models including 12 native ‘FE’ full frame lenses. By early 2016, Sony will add an additional 8 new lenses to its FE full frame lineup, bringing the FE total to 20 lenses and the overall α -mount assortment to over 70 different models.</p>
<p><strong>Preorder the Sony A7S II: <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186034-REG/sony_ilce7sm2_b_alpha_a7sii_mirrorless_digital.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://www.adorama.com/ISOA7SM2.html?kbid=64393" target="_blank">Adorama</a> | Amazon</strong></p>
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
3kramd5 said:
Uncompressed? Why?
“The addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW processing is a direct result of customer feedback..."
Because their customers confused "lossless" and "uncompressed," so Sony took them literally rather than for what they meant. The customers wanted lossless compressed raw so no degradation would occur between A/D and the image file.

I hope this is a typo: someone at Sony must have known what was really meant. If not, it speaks poorly of their market intelligence.
 

Sunnystate

EOS 80D
Jul 21, 2011
150
0
I like that, even the naive presumption is right, that Sony did not understand what people want, it may be a trend setting act, and soon others will have to follow.
It would be good to see and compare REAL RAW files.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
AcutancePhotography said:
I think giving customers a choice is a good thing.
Choice is great, but this was probably the wrong choice. For example, on my 20MP crop-sensor, raw files average around 25MB. An uncompressed raw file would be just under 33MB. They contain the same information, but one takes more space, takes longer to transfer between storage locations, etc. Sony should have used lossless compression unless they were unable to find a suitable compression algorithm.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,129
1,646
Canada
Orangutan said:
AcutancePhotography said:
I think giving customers a choice is a good thing.
Choice is great, but this was probably the wrong choice. For example, on my 20MP crop-sensor, raw files average around 25MB. An uncompressed raw file would be just under 33MB. They contain the same information, but one takes more space, takes longer to transfer between storage locations, etc. Sony should have used lossless compression unless they were unable to find a suitable compression algorithm.
It's never that easy of a question to answer.... for instance, does the camera have the computing power to be able to compress the file in the extra time required to write it to the card? It might actually be quicker for the camera to dump larger files to the card than to compress them and write them... plus, the editing software will run faster without having to worry about uncompressing files....

The downside is bigger files... Some users will want smaller files so they can go with the lossy compressed RAW files, some want all the detail and they can pick the uncompressed RAW files.... to each their own.....

It's really not that different than Canon with RAW files and mRaw files...
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,471
711
If its actually uncompressed raw, that would be a bigger mistake than the lossy compression they now use.

What was needed was lossless compression. Uncompressed files would be a huge size. Lots of clueless users asked for uncompressed raw, so they may get it. That would certainly be something they will turn off soon enough.


Uncompressed files from my D800 are 103.4 MB, a 42 mp camera will likely have 130+ MB files.
 

Stu_bert

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 29, 2011
559
1
London, UK
Mt Spokane Photography said:
If its actually uncompressed raw, that would be a bigger mistake than the lossy compression they now use.

What was needed was lossless compression. Uncompressed files would be a huge size. Lots of clueless users asked for uncompressed raw, so they may get it. That would certainly be something they will turn off soon enough.


Uncompressed files from my D800 are 103.4 MB, a 42 mp camera will likely have 130+ MB files.
If people are worried, just compress them on the file system, folder at a time....

or convert to DNG :D
 

ecqns

EOS T7i
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
Mt Spokane Photography said:
If its actually uncompressed raw, that would be a bigger mistake than the lossy compression they now use.
I don't think it can be categorized as a "mistake" - giving the customer a choice on how they prefer to record images. Storage is dirt cheap and getting cheaper. And maybe it is lossless - we don't know yet.
I've read others speculating there might be some patent issues that could prevent Sony from doing similar compression like Canon & Nikon, which could explain things.
I doubt my a7r will get the update (and I can't say I've ever seen any image quality problems with it) but good news for Sony shooters going forward. I've switched to Sony bodies after using Canons for over 15 years - and I won't be going back - just buying more storage if necessary.
 

drjlo

EOS 6D MK II
Mar 27, 2012
805
5
Canon Rumors said:
they have announced plans to add user selectable compressed or uncompressed 14-Bit RAW still image capture via firmware update to additional cameras beginning with the recently introduced α7R II full-frame mirrorless model.</p>
I sure hope Sony does right by A7R, A7, and A7S owners :(
 

TeT

I am smiling because I am happy...
Feb 17, 2014
827
0
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as long as it is a menu choice it will be fine... Hopefully they will default compressed... just to keep it simple.
 

9VIII

EOR R
Feb 8, 2013
1,843
0
As an amateur I wouldn't particularly care if my files were 200MB (which they probably are on the A7RII). I'm happy to hear they're giving people the high quality option.
Maybe this is just a quick fix while they work on something more suitable. It's better than nothing, and it shows they're listening.
 

msm

EOS RP
Jun 8, 2013
309
1
Don Haines said:
Orangutan said:
For example, on my 20MP crop-sensor, raw files average around 25MB. An uncompressed raw file would be just under 33MB.
It's not just 14 bits per pixel..... it's 14 bits per colour per pixel...

(20Mpixels X 14 bits X 3) colours divided by 8 bits gives 105,000,000 bytes or 100.1MBytes...
But the sensor only measures one colour per pixel (red, green or blue), so 1/3rd of that would be correct. Debayering is done later when processing the raw in your raw processor.
 

Bdube

EOS M50
Jun 20, 2015
27
0
Don Haines said:
Orangutan said:
For example, on my 20MP crop-sensor, raw files average around 25MB. An uncompressed raw file would be just under 33MB.
It's not just 14 bits per pixel..... it's 14 bits per colour per pixel...

(20Mpixels X 14 bits X 3) colours divided by 8 bits gives 105,000,000 bytes or 100.1MBytes...
Each pixel is monochrome, there is a matrix operation done on the RAW to turn it into a color photo =)

14b/px * 20Mpx / 8bit/byte = 35MB. Maybe 36MB after adding metadata.
 

msm

EOS RP
Jun 8, 2013
309
1
The current lossy raw stores 1 byte per pixel, and file sizes range around 42-43MB. The expected size of a uncompressed raw would therefore be around 74MB from the A7R II.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,471
711
TeT said:
as long as it is a menu choice it will be fine... Hopefully they will default compressed... just to keep it simple.
Default compressed, or default to lossy compressed?

Compression can be lossy or lossless. Lossy files will be smaller, but not significantly smaller compared to lossy compression. But uncompressed files will be huge. 3X the time to save files to a card, 3X the card space needed, 3X the time to upload files to a computer.

This may mean nothing to someone who takes a occasional photo, but take 1500 in a session, and its very significant.

Compression algorithms are available in the public domain, so its not a patent issue.
 

LOALTD

EOS RP
Nov 24, 2012
230
0
www.andrewholmanphoto.com
Even if it means literal, actual, "uncompressed" RAW, I don't much care.


It's irrelevant for my workflow, I convert all RAW formats into DNG anway.


128GB cards are cheap.


I'm more interested to see how shooting rates will be affected.
 

LetTheRightLensIn

EOS 5D SR
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
Canon Rumors said:
Sony Electronics, a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer, has today announced user selectable Compressed and Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW image capture will be featured in the new α7S II once it arrives in stores this October.</p>
<p>Additionally, they have announced plans to add user selectable compressed or uncompressed 14-Bit RAW still image capture via firmware update to additional cameras beginning with the recently introduced α7R II full-frame mirrorless model.</p>
<p>“The voice of our α community remains the most important guiding force of our product development plans,” said Neal Manowitz, Deputy Vice President for Digital Imaging at Sony Electronics. “The addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW processing is a direct result of customer feedback. Widely requested by photo and video enthusiasts, we believe the choice of RAW processing types will further elevate the performance of these extraordinary cameras.”</p>
<p>The α7S II and α7R II are compatible with Sony’s growing lineup of α -mount lenses, which now totals 63 different models including 12 native ‘FE’ full frame lenses. By early 2016, Sony will add an additional 8 new lenses to its FE full frame lineup, bringing the FE total to 20 lenses and the overall α -mount assortment to over 70 different models.</p>
<p><strong>Preorder the Sony A7S II: <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1186034-REG/sony_ilce7sm2_b_alpha_a7sii_mirrorless_digital.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296" target="_blank">B&H Photo</a> | <a href="http://www.adorama.com/ISOA7SM2.html?kbid=64393" target="_blank">Adorama</a> | Amazon</strong></p>
nice, nice

gotta get my money together to get my Canon lenses attached to this A7R II beast for everything (where it will run rings around my Canon body) but for my AF macro work and sports/action/need something with solid AF and top UI for quick can't mess around work (where a Canon will run rings around it).
 

AvTvM

EOS 5D MK IV
Nov 4, 2011
3,165
0
Re: Sony Announces Addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW Still Image Capture for New α

xps said:
Well, Sony reacts fast on consumer wishes.
hahahaha! Good one. Sony has been heavily critiziced for more than 3 years now for their cooked and crippled RAWs. It took them forever to halfway fix such a simple issue. And even now it is rather unclear, whether they have really fixed the issue by offering both uncompressed 14 bit RAWs as well as LOSSLESSLY compressed 14-bit RAWs. And to what degree these RAWs will remain pre-cooked ...

Furthermore, it looks as if the fix will only be available on A7s and A7R II. Leaving A7 II owners high and dry. not to mention A7, A7s, A7R, R1, R1X and A6000 users. ::)

xps said:
Maybe Canon managers hear from that too and begins listening to its users a little bit more....
Well ... here we are looking at an issue, that does not affect Canon users. For once. :p :)