fatmanmedi said:
Ethics is the difference between what one *can* do and what one *should* do.
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The Bride chose my images instead of the photographer, how much should I charge?
- Thread starter chriswolf
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Ethics is the difference between what one *can* do and what one *should* do.
It would seem the contracted pro should have collected the photos from the guest shooter and presented them to the bride as one package - blind to her who took what.
Either way, the contracted photographer needs to be brought in. It was their established business that put the OP in the situation in the first place, so they have a right to whatever monetary gains come out of it.
Now the risk is offending (unintentionally) the pro when they find out the bride preferred the other photos.
Either way, the contracted photographer needs to be brought in. It was their established business that put the OP in the situation in the first place, so they have a right to whatever monetary gains come out of it.
Now the risk is offending (unintentionally) the pro when they find out the bride preferred the other photos.
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I'm now curious, wondering what the OP's original intent was, specifically regarding the disposition of the photos he expected to shoot at the wedding?
I'd think that they were originally intended for the bride, if so, she should get them and from the pro she contracted with.
The OP having essentially a verbal contract with the pro which would include implications that work would be done and product produced, I'd think the OP is duty bound to deliver to the pro.
Legally, I dunno.
Morally, what will the neighbors (read, local wedding planning industry) think and say?
I'd think that they were originally intended for the bride, if so, she should get them and from the pro she contracted with.
The OP having essentially a verbal contract with the pro which would include implications that work would be done and product produced, I'd think the OP is duty bound to deliver to the pro.
Legally, I dunno.
Morally, what will the neighbors (read, local wedding planning industry) think and say?
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First of all, congratulations on having some shots that someone wants to pay you for--that's a very exciting moment!
Secondly, as many others have said, any money you could potentially make on this are more than lost in a law suit and potential future revenue due to bad word of mouth.
Additionally, I want to caution you about too much patting yourself on the back. Maybe you took some great shots, and maybe the "pro" really sucks. But then again, maybe not. I've been on shoots (not weddings though) where I knew that I had a backup and that they were relatively inexperienced. Both to help them be successful and challenge myself, I've set them up in the best/easiest "guaranteed" spots/shots and worked the more challenging angles/lighting etc myself. And when it was all said and done, most of their shots turned out better than mine. And trust me, they were not better photographers than I am (not that I'm that great, but they were really raw in their skills.)
And on the flip side, I've done a couple of weddings where I was the backup, and because the main photog was working the "must have"/guaranteed shots, I was able to get more creative and ended up with some of the better shots, not because I was the better shooter but because I had more time and opportunity to get creative.
Good luck!
Secondly, as many others have said, any money you could potentially make on this are more than lost in a law suit and potential future revenue due to bad word of mouth.
Additionally, I want to caution you about too much patting yourself on the back. Maybe you took some great shots, and maybe the "pro" really sucks. But then again, maybe not. I've been on shoots (not weddings though) where I knew that I had a backup and that they were relatively inexperienced. Both to help them be successful and challenge myself, I've set them up in the best/easiest "guaranteed" spots/shots and worked the more challenging angles/lighting etc myself. And when it was all said and done, most of their shots turned out better than mine. And trust me, they were not better photographers than I am (not that I'm that great, but they were really raw in their skills.)
And on the flip side, I've done a couple of weddings where I was the backup, and because the main photog was working the "must have"/guaranteed shots, I was able to get more creative and ended up with some of the better shots, not because I was the better shooter but because I had more time and opportunity to get creative.
Good luck!
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tron said:
Agreed. I'm neither a lawyer nor a wedding photographer. I shoot news and sports, so I don't have any specific knowledge. But it seems preposterous to me that a guest of the bride and groom is in any way beholden to the official photographer. I suppose if the photographer somehow got the couple-to-be to sign some kind of exclusivity contract, that might change things-- but is that seriously a standard practice? There are certainly ethical implications involved in taking business away from the official photographer, even as a guest. But I fail to see how something a guest shoots can "belong" to the official photographer.
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ITshooter said:
I hire someone, take them to an event, and they take pictures for me. Then they sell those pictures to the event organizer.... How do you think I am going to react?
The OP is NOT a guest! They are an employee of the photographer, being paid with experience and exposure.
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I don't like myself when I'm cynical but something else could be going on. In one case I remember someone like yourself shot the event without me knowing that there would be another shooter. I thought I was the only shooter because that is what my contact told me. Then the other shooter's pictures were chosen not so much that they were better but they were free because they were friends and the group was able to save a bunch of money. Now I require a high enough shoot fee before I will schedule the shoot so at least I get paid for my time. People will do a bunch of things just to save a buck. Even brides or grooms.
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Interesting, Bruce, I have never shot a wedding where the balance has not been cleared funds on the day. Weddings are way too expensive to expect newly weds to have money after the event!
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Perhaps the wedding photographer was not professional anyway; on the face of the OP the newly weds are going to pay twice. Unlikely. Last thing the bride is thinking about on 'the day' is taking an contact of an assistant photographer. Bit of hocus pocus maybe.
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Bruce Photography said:
Sounds familiar....
I was asked by the groom "as a friend" to shoot a wedding.... A couple of days before the wedding I found out there was going to be an official photographer (also a friend of mine but the bride and groom did not know we were friends). I gave my memory cards to the official photographer at the end of the day with the understanding that she never tell the bride who took what pictures and that she could do whatever she wanted with them.
I did not like being placed "in competition" with a real professional who does weddings for a living, where for me it is a hobby.
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I'm not a professional photographer. I'll start there.
Your question was about charging for pictures. You said 30-40 pictures, but that is irrelevant, I would think. If you had that absolutely killer, amazing image, the image itself demands a price. (Imagine a technically-perfect image of a shark jumping out of the water, and catching mid-air another shark that had fish in its mouth -- that you captured an image that will probably be caught again -- that is what I'm saying, where neither previous photographic education or experience would set you up for that -- it was just 'luck' &
'timing' you got it.)
If you had professional equipment, and training, and experience behind you, you could charge 'X'. Your previous experience + your investment into equipment you bring with you (think a bride's lease on your equipment for her venue) has a value. If you used a Rebel camera with kit lens, or an iPhone, or a 110 film camera, with no previous experience or education behind you, you would charge less than 'X'.
Beyond your question.
You stated you asked a professional photographer who makes his/her living from wedding photography if you could join them with your camera, trying to be a '+1' into their business and location. And they said 'Yes'. What was your agreement with them relative to joining them in their livelihood? Were they just altruistic to help populate their field of business?
Why were you there? To learn to compose photos? To learn the business of photography? Were you there to help the event photographer in any manner? Did he or you agree to anything else other than your presence at his job? Does the photographer have any expectations to your presence at the event?
Your question was about charging for pictures. You said 30-40 pictures, but that is irrelevant, I would think. If you had that absolutely killer, amazing image, the image itself demands a price. (Imagine a technically-perfect image of a shark jumping out of the water, and catching mid-air another shark that had fish in its mouth -- that you captured an image that will probably be caught again -- that is what I'm saying, where neither previous photographic education or experience would set you up for that -- it was just 'luck' &
'timing' you got it.)
If you had professional equipment, and training, and experience behind you, you could charge 'X'. Your previous experience + your investment into equipment you bring with you (think a bride's lease on your equipment for her venue) has a value. If you used a Rebel camera with kit lens, or an iPhone, or a 110 film camera, with no previous experience or education behind you, you would charge less than 'X'.
Beyond your question.
You stated you asked a professional photographer who makes his/her living from wedding photography if you could join them with your camera, trying to be a '+1' into their business and location. And they said 'Yes'. What was your agreement with them relative to joining them in their livelihood? Were they just altruistic to help populate their field of business?
Why were you there? To learn to compose photos? To learn the business of photography? Were you there to help the event photographer in any manner? Did he or you agree to anything else other than your presence at his job? Does the photographer have any expectations to your presence at the event?
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First of all, let's not use big words as "suing". Nobody is gonna sue someone for a few pics and a couple hundreds dollars. Just the cost of hiring a good lawyer ($300/h) or a even a bad lawyer ($100/h) is not worth it. Let alone the hassle of going through a trial.
Best of the worst, a mediator would be hired to solve this issue.
Second, I believe this whole experience is perfect learning for you and for the "Pro" as well. Terms should have been agreed when you asked to join him(her) on the job.
If the bride is willing to pay for your pics, you should be compensated. Now, compensation does not mean money.
In my opinion, hurting the Pro's ego will hurt your career in the industry at least as much as getting money on his(her) back. You might get a sense of that out of the tough responses of some forum members, who I assume must be wedding photographers. Be careful with this.
If I were you I would contact the Pro and tell him(her) that you have been contacted by the Bride and that she really likes your pictures (do not mention that she "prefers" your picture). Let the Pro tell you want he(she) sees the situation and the proper manner to deal with it. If he(she) has no idea, the best is for you to propose to give the Pro your photographs and let him decide if he wants to give you a few hundred bucks. 40 pics is quite a fair amount, and if it is true that you are bound by ethics, so is he(she).
If you don't get any money from the Pro, you already got experience and, most importantly, you can be sure this Pro will not "burn" you in the profession. You also should inform the Bride that you gave your photographs to the Pro for free "because it was the right things to do." She might feel bad and give you a few hundred bucks. She might not. But in any case feel free to promote yourself and let her know that she can talk about you in her entourage in order for you to get a paid job in the near future (assuming you register yourself as a wedding photographer, insurance and all good stuff).
In the end, you have nothing to lose. You went for experience, you got it. In addition, you've got good exposure with the pro photographer and you showed your talent to a Bride who may recommend you to friends/family as future customers.
Do the right thing.
Best of the worst, a mediator would be hired to solve this issue.
Second, I believe this whole experience is perfect learning for you and for the "Pro" as well. Terms should have been agreed when you asked to join him(her) on the job.
If the bride is willing to pay for your pics, you should be compensated. Now, compensation does not mean money.
In my opinion, hurting the Pro's ego will hurt your career in the industry at least as much as getting money on his(her) back. You might get a sense of that out of the tough responses of some forum members, who I assume must be wedding photographers. Be careful with this.
If I were you I would contact the Pro and tell him(her) that you have been contacted by the Bride and that she really likes your pictures (do not mention that she "prefers" your picture). Let the Pro tell you want he(she) sees the situation and the proper manner to deal with it. If he(she) has no idea, the best is for you to propose to give the Pro your photographs and let him decide if he wants to give you a few hundred bucks. 40 pics is quite a fair amount, and if it is true that you are bound by ethics, so is he(she).
If you don't get any money from the Pro, you already got experience and, most importantly, you can be sure this Pro will not "burn" you in the profession. You also should inform the Bride that you gave your photographs to the Pro for free "because it was the right things to do." She might feel bad and give you a few hundred bucks. She might not. But in any case feel free to promote yourself and let her know that she can talk about you in her entourage in order for you to get a paid job in the near future (assuming you register yourself as a wedding photographer, insurance and all good stuff).
In the end, you have nothing to lose. You went for experience, you got it. In addition, you've got good exposure with the pro photographer and you showed your talent to a Bride who may recommend you to friends/family as future customers.
Do the right thing.
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OP needs to understand that the fees charged by the booked photographer may have been reliant on a print order, and if the bride doesn't order prints due to the ability to print the OP's shots there will be issues. I understand the 'I want feedback' mentality that the OP shared the photos with the bride, but that was the first misstep. The OP and the booked photog need to have an open honest discussion about what has happened. The OP might get paid a little by the booked photog if the bride orders his photos as prints, but other than that, don't expect money.
Having shot a few weddings for portfolio material, I gave all my shots to the booked photographer. An honest photographer will not use someone else's shots in their portfolio, but will answer who captured a specific shot if asked by the bride.
Having shot a few weddings for portfolio material, I gave all my shots to the booked photographer. An honest photographer will not use someone else's shots in their portfolio, but will answer who captured a specific shot if asked by the bride.
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Sounds familiar....
I did not like being placed "in competition" with a real professional who does weddings for a living, where for me it is a hobby.
[/quote]
+1
I'm often asked to shoot family events, including weddings, but in most cases I decline to do so and gently tell the bride/groom they need a pro to handle the PP and produce a final product. I don't want to take bread off the table from wedding photographers who struggle to make a living at it. In a couple of recent cases, the "Pro" did such a poor job I was asked to step in. I hated doing so, but it was family. I'm perfectly happy to give my images to the official photographer, but they always decline (and I suspect are also insulted), so I now give them to the bride & groom.
I did not like being placed "in competition" with a real professional who does weddings for a living, where for me it is a hobby.
[/quote]
+1
I'm often asked to shoot family events, including weddings, but in most cases I decline to do so and gently tell the bride/groom they need a pro to handle the PP and produce a final product. I don't want to take bread off the table from wedding photographers who struggle to make a living at it. In a couple of recent cases, the "Pro" did such a poor job I was asked to step in. I hated doing so, but it was family. I'm perfectly happy to give my images to the official photographer, but they always decline (and I suspect are also insulted), so I now give them to the bride & groom.
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Interesting topic,
I am not a lawyer so I have always interpreted the law on the safe side from my standpoint. I can be wrong and lose some of my advantages but I feel more safe that way.
My interpretation of the copyright is that it belongs entirely to the photographer if he is hired, as a self-employed for example, to do the job.
However it belongs to your employer if you work for someone else.
The term of your "employment" is not clear in your question, but if you really worked for him, the copyright to the photos doesn't belong to you. That is my interpretation of it. As such I wouldn't dare selling it without the pros's consent.
Similarly, I wouldn't post these photos on my own website without his consent either. My understanding is that he better has a clause on his contract authorizing him to use the photos on his website (again, from the safe side of the law).
But, that's me, better safe than sorry.
By the way, congratulations on your success. You shoot wedding for the "first time" and you are better than the pro. I would seriously consider stepping into the business, which is one more reason for you to be more carefull about your reputation and ethics as many already stated.
I have had better shot than the main photographer in the past, while assisting, but whether these were simple "luck" or because he was busy doing the "mandatory" shot and I had the luxury (and less stress) to chose and notice interesting pose. That vanished as soon as I became the main photog.
I am not a lawyer so I have always interpreted the law on the safe side from my standpoint. I can be wrong and lose some of my advantages but I feel more safe that way.
My interpretation of the copyright is that it belongs entirely to the photographer if he is hired, as a self-employed for example, to do the job.
However it belongs to your employer if you work for someone else.
The term of your "employment" is not clear in your question, but if you really worked for him, the copyright to the photos doesn't belong to you. That is my interpretation of it. As such I wouldn't dare selling it without the pros's consent.
Similarly, I wouldn't post these photos on my own website without his consent either. My understanding is that he better has a clause on his contract authorizing him to use the photos on his website (again, from the safe side of the law).
But, that's me, better safe than sorry.
By the way, congratulations on your success. You shoot wedding for the "first time" and you are better than the pro. I would seriously consider stepping into the business, which is one more reason for you to be more carefull about your reputation and ethics as many already stated.
I have had better shot than the main photographer in the past, while assisting, but whether these were simple "luck" or because he was busy doing the "mandatory" shot and I had the luxury (and less stress) to chose and notice interesting pose. That vanished as soon as I became the main photog.
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IMO you were hired by the pro. Their payment to you, exactly what you asked for, experience.
You owe it to the pro to present your photos and the brides request and let them close the deal. Then ask if you can do it again and negotiate your compensation for the next time.
Ask yourself how easy it will be for you to get a paying gig on your own. How easy was it to get work through this pro? I've known Wedding photogs that worked for others (with high end reputation) and themselves. If you contacted them and asked them to do the work you got them at their price. If you asked them about the much well known company you got the same photog but paid the much higher price. Sometimes the high end company would call them and ask them to assist on or take over a shoot. It's a way to get started but you have to play nice.
You owe it to the pro to present your photos and the brides request and let them close the deal. Then ask if you can do it again and negotiate your compensation for the next time.
Ask yourself how easy it will be for you to get a paying gig on your own. How easy was it to get work through this pro? I've known Wedding photogs that worked for others (with high end reputation) and themselves. If you contacted them and asked them to do the work you got them at their price. If you asked them about the much well known company you got the same photog but paid the much higher price. Sometimes the high end company would call them and ask them to assist on or take over a shoot. It's a way to get started but you have to play nice.
Not sure if they have small claims court down under but they do here and there are no lawyers. The limit is like $10,000 and I think that would be a really good day for most wedding photogs.
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Kerry B said:
I mostly agree. However, if the guest photographer's images had been presented along with the main shooting pro's images, the bride might have chosen some of each shooters images and been satisfied with the amount of images included in the package (in the scenario described above). In that case, perhaps she wouldn't need to spend more money.
I'm not a wedding photographer. I shoot live theater and headshots. When I shoot a show for a theater, occasionally someone from the production's creative team will be shooting behind me...usually the set designer. Would it hurt me if the theater chose some of the set designer's images? Not particularly, because he's part of the team. He just needs to stay out of my way. I'm hired to make sure they get the specific images they need that are then published in the newspapers and websites that review these shows. These images are given to the press when the shows are reviewed. However, I can't imagine a scenario when I would invite someone that I don't really know to shoot along side without having some advanced agreement regarding the other shooters images.
I've been asked a few times by friends and family to shoot their weddings. They've seen my work and think I'm a great photographer. But I've never accepted. I wouldn't want to let them down. Wedding photography, to me, requires specific experience and anticipation for the event that I don't have. I couldn't expect to do a great job without getting experience first. Similarly, it wouldn't be easy shooting live theater for the first time. Shooting a musical is like shooting basketball but with constantly changing lighting.
I guess I'm saying that the OP should be grateful for the experience that the pro allowed him to receive. I don't know what was communicated between them before the wedding, but you'd think they would've had to discuss a plan just to stay out each other's way.
Another thought that came to mind...according to the OP the bride liked his images better. Does a wedding photographer show the bride all of the images prior to post processing then only process the images chosen? If so, could this be a reason the bride likes the 2nd shooter's images better? Maybe his were already processed. I can shoot 2000 images during a musical. Most theaters get jpegs right out of my camera that night. They'll make their choices for press the next morning and I'll PP the images they choose, but I'm not going to process 2000 images knowing that they will only choose 30.
If the OP is as good as he indicates, then he should be able to book some paid gigs in the not too distant future. He now has images for a portfolio that will enable him to market his work. The revenue for one job will far surpass the couple hundred bucks he might get for the 30 images this bride likes. If he takes the money and snubs the photographer that gave him the opportunity to learn, his reputation might prevent him from getting that job. Will it have been worth it?
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