The Canon EOS M50 and Canon EOS R continued to sell well in December

dirtyvu

I'm New Here
Jan 7, 2019
6
4
#61
If the market was homogeneous worldwide, then yes, BCN would be a good source of information to extrapolate from. But it isn't, at all*, and so people make wrong assumptions because they base them on incomplete data. What's worse, though, is that what BCN publishes is very partial information. They make sales rankings for each month of the year, but never list the number of units or market share percentages, and their EOY rankings are extremely sparse in data too, only giving general market share percentages, so that it's impossible to build a complete picture even if both data sets are combined.

Canon can certainly assign more importance to Japan or whatever market they prefer. That says absolutely nothing about how their products are selling in other regions of the world. In East Asia, for example, there are wild differences from country to country - China is crazy about 35mm DSLRs, in South Korea Sony is king, in Thailand Fujifilm have the #1 spot, whereas Vietnam reflects the Japanese market somewhat. Base any far-reaching conclusions out of any of these countries and you'll get a completely unrealistic picture of worldwide sales.

When it comes to accurate numbers, it's CIPA or bust. One can certainly use other sources to complement this, but CIPA reports still constitute the only authoritative sales information available to non-insiders.

*Just look at Olympus - they were #1 in Japan for a couple of years with their PEN series, but could only gain a foothold in Europe and the US with the OM-D's... which, E-M10 excepted, sell in much lower volumes in Japan :ROFLMAO: Add DSLRs and different formats into the mix, and things get complicated very quickly.
it's not their job to be all comprehensive and do all the extensive research. they report news as it comes in. it's not even their job to verify whether any of the information is correct. the only verification is if the source is a legitimate organization. you can't expect them to verify whether that organization measured it properly.
 

maves

I'm New Here
Sep 21, 2017
6
0
Tasmania
#62
December figures are often skewed because of the christmas lead-up. Entry level kits are often bought as gifts, whereas people buying high level gear for themselves are likely to hold off until after the break due to financial constraints of christmas.
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,521
633
Canada
#64
And most serious young photographers prefer film anyway.
If I told people at work that I was using film and they had to wait for processing and printing, I would get shot, and not with a camera!

A real photographer does what the job requires, not what is trendy or artsy.
 
Likes: stevelee

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,223
203
118
#65
And most serious young photographers(most people at college or uni who are doing an art major but aren't in any way artistic think they can be a legitimate creative 'artist' who's "medium is film") prefer film anyway.
Haven't seen an original idea from any of them in forty years, can you point me to anything to contradict that? I'd love to think there is another generation of actual artists using photography out there, all I end up seeing are burnt negatives, Holgaesque reboots, 'faux' instagram filters (for irony you understand), and hold over Polaroid/Instax crap.
 

Kharan

I'm New Here
Nov 9, 2018
8
3
#66
it's not their job to be all comprehensive and do all the extensive research. they report news as it comes in. it's not even their job to verify whether any of the information is correct. the only verification is if the source is a legitimate organization. you can't expect them to verify whether that organization measured it properly.
I'm not criticizing the news reporting (of Canon Rumors, BTW, I have no idea what "Canon News" is), I'm criticizing the editorializing that goes along with it. Every rumor site will try to paint things in a positive light for their chosen brand, and that's absolutely natural, but to then draw pig-headed conclusions from highly incomplete data is just wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's for Sony, Nikon, Canon or Pentax - parsing current and past sales is pretty difficult already, and all this poppycock making the rounds only makes it harder. Too many people are repeating baseless stuff based only on hearsay, or even worse, plainly fantasizing.
 
Sep 22, 2016
120
19
#67
Haven't seen an original idea from any of them in forty years, can you point me to anything to contradict that? I'd love to think there is another generation of actual artists using photography out there, all I end up seeing are burnt negatives, Holgaesque reboots, 'faux' instagram filters (for irony you understand), and hold over Polaroid/Instax crap.
I may have been exaggerating a bit, but I'd say, right off the top of my head, check out: Emily Soto, Luo Yang (and her book "Girls"), Reed Klass (young guy in Montana still in college I think), Lina Bessonova (large format) and Jamie Hawkesworth. Maybe their ideas aren't "original" enough for you, but they're doing good, solid work on film around the globe. There are many others, and I find it very exiciting to see how international shooting film is today. So maybe lay the cynacism aside for a sec, and have a look. You might be pleasantly surprised.
(Full disclaimer, though: I shoot a lot of film these days, too, so I'm a little biased).
 

Pape

I'm New Here
Dec 31, 2018
18
2
#69
The idea of sensor and lens sharpness, and one being 'higher' than the other, is a totally spurious concept and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how system resolution is defined.
st: 758612, member: 3398"]The idea of sensor and lens sharpness, and one being 'higher' than the other, is a totally spurious concept and illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how system resolution is defined.[/QUOTE]

Yes new sensors are bit more lens friendly but i dont think they developed so much from t2i that it would be easy see difference?
 

dirtyvu

I'm New Here
Jan 7, 2019
6
4
#70
I'm not criticizing the news reporting (of Canon Rumors, BTW, I have no idea what "Canon News" is), I'm criticizing the editorializing that goes along with it. Every rumor site will try to paint things in a positive light for their chosen brand, and that's absolutely natural, but to then draw pig-headed conclusions from highly incomplete data is just wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's for Sony, Nikon, Canon or Pentax - parsing current and past sales is pretty difficult already, and all this poppycock making the rounds only makes it harder. Too many people are repeating baseless stuff based only on hearsay, or even worse, plainly fantasizing.
Are you saying the sales chart is a rumor?

And where is the editorialization? They just read it off the chart.

"Canon continues to dominate the top 20 ["dominate" is the closest to editorialization but 9 out of 19 are Canon so "dominate" is a reasonable word when the top 20 is 50% Canon]. The Canon EOS M50 continues to be a big seller for Canon, holding down the #3 and #4 spots on the list. The Canon EOS R is sitting in 13th place, one spot ahead of the Canon EOS 6D Mark II. the Z 6 is sitting in 39th spot for the month. The A7 III is sitting at #10, which is the best spot for a full frame mirrorless camera." None of this is editorialization. It's straight off the chart. If you view it as editorialization, it's strictly your connotative interpretation of their words.
 
#71
I know this is harsh, but honestly, if you are running a website where your goal is to cover "Canon News" as accurately and thoroughly as possible, it's not really a valid excuse that you can't get needed statistical information without paying for it. If you haven't factored in the cost of the resources and information you need to be credible, perhaps your business model is flawed.

A better statement would be: This information is released to the public and accurately reports what it claims to report. We think it is worth covering, even though it is incomplete information, but we caution readers not to attempt to extrapolate this data to other markets.
*eyeroll*

for starters, we state in every article what BCN is. if you can't read that and figure it out then the problem isn't mine.

for instance we stated on this article:

"For those unaware, BCN is a major sales reporting agency in Japan, they tally up more than half of all sales receipts for cameras, and other goods and report on the sales results. It's a highly accurate look at the Japan marketplace, and one of the only views we have of any market in the world. "

that should suffice for even you.

Craig in his article (this one) states:

"These sales charts are for Japan only, but they’re very accurate. "

I do believe both articles, mine and Craig's.. cover off the fact that BCN simply reports on Japan.
 
Last edited:
Likes: CanonFanBoy
#72
If the market was homogeneous worldwide, then yes, BCN would be a good source of information to extrapolate from. But it isn't, at all*, and so people make wrong assumptions because they base them on incomplete data. What's worse, though, is that what BCN publishes is very partial information. They make sales rankings for each month of the year, but never list the number of units or market share percentages, and their EOY rankings are extremely sparse in data too, only giving general market share percentages, so that it's impossible to build a complete picture even if both data sets are combined.

Canon can certainly assign more importance to Japan or whatever market they prefer. That says absolutely nothing about how their products are selling in other regions of the world. In East Asia, for example, there are wild differences from country to country - China is crazy about 35mm DSLRs, in South Korea Sony is king, in Thailand Fujifilm have the #1 spot, whereas Vietnam reflects the Japanese market somewhat. Base any far-reaching conclusions out of any of these countries and you'll get a completely unrealistic picture of worldwide sales.

When it comes to accurate numbers, it's CIPA or bust. One can certainly use other sources to complement this, but CIPA reports still constitute the only authoritative sales information available to non-insiders.

*Just look at Olympus - they were #1 in Japan for a couple of years with their PEN series, but could only gain a foothold in Europe and the US with the OM-D's... which, E-M10 excepted, sell in much lower volumes in Japan :ROFLMAO: Add DSLRs and different formats into the mix, and things get complicated very quickly.
actually, CIPA is not accurate, and it's too long of an explanation to get into here, but CIPA show shipments, while BCN shows sales. Shipments <> Sales. CIPA is good for trending and spotting variations such as mass shipments with new products, but it has a pretty vague relationship otherwise.

then there's the matter of value, which is FOB and a very loose relationship to the actual sale value, which can widely vary between time of year, and manufacturer.
 

neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,509
543
#73
actually, CIPA is not accurate, and it's too long of an explanation to get into here, but CIPA show shipments, while BCN shows sales. Shipments <> Sales. CIPA is good for trending and spotting variations such as mass shipments with new products, but it has a pretty vague relationship otherwise.

then there's the matter of value, which is FOB and a very loose relationship to the actual sale value, which can widely vary between time of year, and manufacturer.
Independent of the sales vs. shipments issue, the most relevant difference here is that BCN reports manufacturer-specific data, whereas CIPA does not.

With some work, it’s possible to roughly estimate the state of the global market by looking at the CIPA data and the IR reports of the major manufacturers (but that will always be rough because of the differences in how manufacturers report their data, e.g. units vs. revenue, whether lenses are included, offset fiscal years, etc.). Or one could buy the periodic reports from IDC or GfK..
 
Oct 25, 2011
353
6
#74
Mostly agreed. My 5D mk III is great and takes wonderful portraits when I want full frame and have the room to take the "big-bag". It's going to take probably five years for the R to be tempting. My guess is whenever the unannounced "high-end" R is released and then three or four years after that when it's at half it's introductory price.

With that said - I also have an M 50 and love it - handling is great, image quality is up to snuff and the native lenses are interesting and fun (I have them all except the new 32mm which I'll pick up at some point.) I picked up the M50 for a recent trip and the ability to put it and two lenses in my murse was great - one of which is always the phenomenal EF-M 11-22. Given my love of the kit, I do wish the BCN numbers had a single count for the two colors of the M50. Sagrada Família - M50 + EF-M 11-22

I have found a fun use for my old 40D and 7D - passing them onto my oldest son who is taking some damn good portraits proving that ten and twelve year old cameras can still make art.
Nice shot of the Sagrada...I was there in 2003 just before the invasion of Irak? I think...my wife and I have always said that we would like to go back when its completed or nearly so...if I'm still alive by then of course....

If you like the M50 you will love the R...I have the M6 and tried to use it as much as I can even when I thought the 6D would be better....but now that I have the R I have lost a little bit of my love for the small mirrorless mainly because of its poor image quality above 800/1600...However the R with the 40 pancake on is quite small and compact and the image quality is in another league! The R is so much nicer than my old 6D and also my short lived 6D2...I never thought mirrorless could be so nice even though I had glimpses what mirrorless can do with the M6 ...
 
Likes: brianboru
#75
*eyeroll* right back at you.

Way to completely ignore my comment and change the subject.

Let's back up a minute.

You responded to an earlier comment from another person by saying "..Also, no one else reports for free this kind of data in any other region, so what are we supposed to do, ignore BCN all together as a data point?"
To get into this conversion would derail this thread, but there's zero in the way of a credible business case to invest in such an investment the ROI would fractions of cents on the dollar.

We have thought about it, and even thought about spending money with chipworks at the same time, however, there's just not the ROI in it, so it's just not happening.

To be frank the rest of your response was inappropriate for this thread (and any on this website).
 
Last edited:
Likes: Talys

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
1,992
246
Vancouver, BC
#77
Honestly, I get a little tired of every Tom, Dick and Harry who decides they want to start a website to monetize their hobby by claiming they are covering "news" and then get offended because people expect them to invest some resources to do the job they say they are doing.
You know, you can You can just ignore websites you're not interested in, right?

News aggregate websites are valuable because they save you from having to go to dozens of other primary sources to dig up news. Absents aggregators, how many of us would actually have gone to BCN? Or even read Canon press releases?

If a site bugs you, there is a pretty easy solution... spend your time elsewhere :) My take on it: life is too short to be bothered by things that do not negatively impact me or anyone, over which I have no control.
 
Likes: dak723
#78
...but there's zero in the way of a credible business case to invest in such an investment the ROI would fractions of cents on the dollar.

We have thought about it, and even thought about spending money with chipworks at the same time, however, there's just not the ROI in it, so it's just not happening...
That's a perfectly understandable position. Could have saved a lot of time by just saying that at the outset.
 
Likes: Kharan
Jan 28, 2015
2,729
314
Irving, Texas
#79
The 60 and over crowd has the money and spends it on DSLRs. The 35 and under crowd uses cell phones until they have a kid, then they buy a mirrorless camera to preserve every moment of their little precious one's life on Facebook. Most will soon tire of the camera and go back to using a cell phone. Canon can be excused for catering to the crowd that is most loyal and has the most money.
Damn straight. If I had a pocket that didn't have money in it... well, I'd cut it off!