The future of the Canon EOS-1D X series [CR1]

dcm

Good or bad - it's not the gear.
Apr 18, 2013
709
21
Your universe is getting less universal with each post :p
And getting smaller. We were stationed at Fairchild AFB in Spokane, WA, in the Pacific Nothwest for several years. My folks retired there in 1978 and I go back to visit for a few weeks every year. A few brothers live in Seattle, including one that is an engineer at Boeing. This discussion surprises him too.
 
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HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
397
29
Your universe is getting less universal with each post :p
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I have a much better idea... Why don't you admit that I am utterly Bat S&*^ CRAAAAAAZY and that CanonRumors is my forum for expressing my perturbed musings at a society that is insane, if not outright odious! After that personal admission from you, I will forgive you for your personal transgressions against crazy people everywhere and we can get back to....THE FOLLOWING INCONTROVERTIBLE FACT:

THAT CANON IS DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED !!!!! DOOOOMED I TELL YOU !!!! UTTERLY DOOOOOOOOMED !!!!

P.S. Not only are we introducing a combined 50.3 Megapixel Stills and DCI 8K (8192x4320) 60 fps 4:4:4 GLOBAL SHUTTER video camera with a medium format sensor and two large 2/3rd inch and one-inch image sensor smartphones, we're ALSO introducing the COMPUTER HARDWARE that allows such compression and/or processing IN REAL-TIME of 60 fps DCI 8K video using a 60 GHz Gallium Arsenide-based combined CISC/GPU/DSP superprocessor with FOUR built-in 8192x8192 pixel 4:4:4:4 RGBA/YCbCrA array processors that do hardware accelerated convolution filters (SOBEL, HI/LO-pass, etc) AND general RGBA/YCbCr pixel colour correction/grading and other pixel processing AND it has built-in over 4 Terabytes of ON-CHIP RAM for maximum internal memory processing space.

It is the world's FASTEST consumer-oriented processor at a tested 375 teraFLOPS of CPU horsepower (i.e. tested with various Sieves and Raytracing/3D-XYZ Rendering suites). We do also have a TWO TERAHERTZ Opto-Electronic Server processor which is embedded by the hundreds of thousands into the world's FASTEST supercomputer which quite BLOWS AWAY the DOE's newest Aurora Supercomputer (i.e. 100x+ it's mere ONE ExaFLOPS speed) at a SUSTAINED 119 ExaFLOPS (using 128-bit Fixed/Floating Point and Integer instruction set) running a Whole Brain Emulation system developed by actual Ph.D-degreed Computational Neurobiologists, Neurosurgery MD's and basically 10 of the best neural net programmers IN THE WORLD !!!

AND YES that WBE (Whole Brain Emulation) of neuro-tissue-specific molecular-based Potassium/Sodium/Phosphrous Gating/Switching synthesis is actually super-intelligent (160 IQ and above!) and is working 24/7/365 on designing Virtual Cavity Resonators used in GrASERs (Gravity Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) which causes high frequency, pulsed EM surface waves to hug the interior of $350 million worth Titanium shell, Osmium-coated CNC machined Cavity resonators, waveguides and reflection gear that allow the confinement, summing and amplification of both naturally occurring and artificially created Gravity Waves which will be directed and used to distort Space-Time in front of a Human-built spacecraft allowing it to Surf and/or be pulled along the given axis of a section of severely compressed space-time so that BILLIONS of light years can be traversed in mere seconds!

SO THERE !!!! That is what happens when you make programmers VERY HAPPY by buying them Bell 429's and Racing-Orange Corvette ZR-1's !!!

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NOWWWWWWWW !!!!! Is Canon merely DOOMED or is it REAAAALLLLLLLLY DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

My Aunt just bought an M50 with a basic kit lens! She Likes it Very Much! Just though I'd let you know!

She has three cats and I get to see photos of them in different poses (sleeping, sleeping and sleeping!) EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND !!!!!!!!
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So what is YOUR STORY?
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
... but Canon know the agencies & photographers have many EF mount lenses and tend not to like adaptors.


What is not yet apparent in Canon strategy with the EOS R / RF series is the release of high end RF lenses yet lower entry cameras especially in the RP. I see my EOS R as more a replacement for the 6D MKII not the RP which I see as more as full-frame Rebel yet the 35mm f1.8 lens is the only non- L lens and the announced lenses address the holy trinity of L lenses plus the pro 85mm with again only one non L zoom lens. I would be totally surprised if Canon did not launch a Pro EOS R series camera in late 2019 given Sony offering and Nikon with the Z7. Can anyone really see EOS RP owner buying the RF28-70mm f2L or the RF50mm 1.2L in any great numbers? No.
Agencies do not like cross platform adapters. The EF to RF adapters are seen more like a teleconverter than a Canon EF to Sony E adapter. Most agencies have never had a problem using extenders/TCs with the longer focal length lenses for which they are designed.

This is not much different than the way Canon introduced the EOS system back in 1987-89. They introduced two entry level camera bodies in early 1987, a couple of low/mid bodies in October 1988, then another entry model in early 1989. During that time they concentrated on lenses, both consumer and "L" grade, and only introduced the pro level EOS-1 in late 1989 after the lenses needed to support it were already in place.

If you stop to think about it, it really makes more sense for true working pros that use a bag full of lenses (as opposed to the spec sheet warriors that just "have" to have the "best" camera and spend all of their money on every single body update while still using their crappy old third party lenses). Lenses last much longer than camera bodies. If they brought out the pro body first, by the time the lens line is fleshed out and the real pros are ready to swap systems, the body would be "obsolete." But the lenses being introduced now will still be considered "phenomenal" a year and one half from now when the pro body comes out.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
I don't disagree, but I was really just observing that the timing seems off based on the last couple releases of the 1D and 5D series. I'm not suggesting what could or should replace a 5D series body, nor what people want or need. The 1DX ii was released in Feb of 2016, and the 5D IV followed in August of 2016. The 1DX was released in March of 2012, and the 5D III was also released in March 2012. Now we're hearing that the 1DX iii will be released in close proximity to a high-resolution body, with no mention of a 5D V. Maybe it's too early to hear more about a 5D V, but if this schedule was to be kept and the rumour to be true, then we'd expect a 1DXIII, 5DV, and a high resolution R body to be released in close proximity.
The release of each camera in the 1D X series has coincided with the Summer Olympics. For whatever reasons, the 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV happened to follow those by a few months. Perhaps they were intentionally timed as specifically a 5-series follow-up to the release of a 1D X, or perhaps they just happened to be the next in line non-entry level body of any series in both cases.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
Minus holding it in your hands all day long and then your hand starts to ache from the size and weight lol...
That all depends on the size of your hands. Some of us have more fatigue trying to hold a small body with large hands.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
I very much agree with you and its why I believe a pro body (5dmkIV) is coming far sooner than most people are anticipating. I'm guessing fall at the latest. It doesn't make sense otherwise. The rumor road map has been very inaccurate lately until shortly before the actual introduction of new bodies. Its also a key moneymaker for them in a key pro segment and there have been a lot of Sony defections.
The 5D Mark IV was introduced in 2016, wasn't it?

A new 1dxmkii still goes for 5500 a new one, the mkiii will not see a price reduction till probably its third year of its cycle. Once you have gone to the 1D series it’s hard to come back from. The mkiii will have to be pretty good to get people to upgrade from the mkii.
For those who are approaching 400-500K shutter actuations on their 1D X Mark IIs, it won't be a hard sell. I've seen more than a few high mileage 1D X IIs on the used market lately.


It would be interesting to see how many real pros us 4K in the 1DX MII. Or how many even bother with using it for video at all.
I suspect that if one is a pro shooting video spending that kind of money you will get a dedicated pro level video camera.
As I watch sports and news it appears that stills dominate the pro market rather than make short video clips.
I would say a large majority of those using the 1DX MII use it for stills only and likely would have a hard time shooting a video.
What few staff press photographers I know that are left are expected to deliver both stills and video from most every assignment. Most of them would prefer to only shoot stills most of the time, even though some are rather talented with video.

My desire for a moving screeen is based on photography wants not video. I’d rather have an M5 style tiliting screen than a 80D style swivel screen. I have found tilting screen to be very useful for low and overhead images, and the concerns about durability are largely unfounded, these screens can be made entirely waterproof at very low cost. And robust enough for even the clumsiest of shooters, a simple lock button would ensure those that do not want them would never be impacted by having one, whilst those that see the functionality of them can compose overhead shots others simply can’t.
Those guys have done it enough that they have the muscle memory and eye to do it without a tilty screen. They get their shots now.

Here's a friend of mine shooting from the hip because he had just pulled down his long lens while the 50+ yard
pass was in the air. I had just finished shooting the band warming up for halftime, when I turned around to get this (it's fairly heavily cropped from a 7D MarK II + 70-200/2.8).

183600


He published four frames from the burst he took with the camera moving between his waist and neck before I grabbed the frame above, including the lead image for the next morning's sports section. Keep in mind this was in pretty crappy high school stadium lighting. What looks like lens flare was made worse by smoke drifting from the concession stand.

 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
Thing is that "real pros" aren't the whole of the market. I'd imagine that enthusiast baby boomers with $$$$ are the biggest part of the market. That said, if I ever got a 1D series it would be for stills only. Same for my 5D series. Same thing if I went R. I know many here complain about Canon's video features, but for me those features mean nothing. I suspect Canon has a handle on how important/unimportant video is to the larger market, which might be why Canon isn't so aggressive with those features.
Then there are the pros that are glad baby boomer wannabes with an expanding waistline and without a tilty screen can't keep up with them:
183601
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
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That’s not a particularly fair comparison, one is using a 16-35 at close quarters in reaction to fast moving action, the other a 70-200 clearly working a juxtaposition whilst on the actual court/playing surface for a specific perspective and deliberate framing and is exactly the kind of thing even your friend would appreciate in the same situation, I know I would, and as we all know framing with one is much easier than with the other.

Also your reasoning is specious, just because some owners don’t need something doesn’t mean more owners wouldn’t find that something useful. 4K video, silent shutter, touch screen AF in Live View, customizable control layout, 2 and 10 second shutter delay, focus/drive priority options etc etc. Very few people need these features yet the camera is more capable with them.

What I find a more interesting talking point for your friends image is what his focusing choices were? That is his skill and experience shining through, not his framing with an ultra wide angle lens, most people taking that shot with AF wouldn’t have got the catching player as main focus.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
Actually, Canon has been testing exactly that in lesser models for years and years. I don't know that a 1D series will ever have it, but it doesn't seem to be a complex problem at all, to me. Maybe somebody here has had problems on lesser bodies, but I have never read of any. If Canon can design a mirror to go a couple hundred thousand cycles without failing, a screen that moves far less violently (and far less often) wouldn't seem like a problem. When I had my 70D the only time the screen got flipped out was for a specific need. It isn't something constant. Either way, I'd love to see one on a possible 5D mark V. ;)
200,000? More like 400,000 to 500,000 or more on a four year cycle for many of those folks.

I don't doubt that Canon could solve the engineering problem, but they might not be able to weather the marketing problem from a group (actual 1D users with high profiles - e.g. well known sports/action photogs) that is almost unequivocal that they DO NOT WANT a moveable screen on their 1D cameras.

And David Breshears carried an IMAX camera to the top of Mount Everest. :)
More likely, his sherpas carried it most of the way.


Since I’ve never had a camera with a joystick to move focus points around, I wonder about the following: In the time you move the focus point around with a joystick, couldn’t you just focus manually?
There are also several ways you can set up the 1D X Mark II so that a single programmed button (such as one of the two on the front of your camera) can switch back and forth between the currently selected AF point and a default AF point. Very useful for things such as tennis where one can be constantly swapping from left to right. It's all covered on pages 110-114 of the Canon EOS 1D X Mark II AF Settings Guidebook.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
That’s not a particularly fair comparison, one is using a 16-35 at close quarters in reaction to fast moving action, the other a 70-200 clearly working a juxtaposition whilst on the actual court/playing surface for a specific perspective and deliberate framing and is exactly the kind of thing even your friend would appreciate in the same situation, I know I would, and as we all know framing with one is much easier than with the other.

Also your reasoning is specious, just because some owners don’t need something doesn’t mean more owners wouldn’t find that something useful. 4K video, silent shutter, touch screen AF in Live View, customizable control layout, 2 and 10 second shutter delay, focus/drive priority options etc etc. Very few people need these features yet the camera is more capable with them.

What I find a more interesting talking point for your friends image is what his focusing choices were? That is his skill and experience shining through, not his framing with an ultra wide angle lens, most people taking that shot with AF wouldn’t have got the catching player as main focus.
Wasn't comparing one to the other. That's why they are in separate posts responding to different comments.

The Yoga master was lining up this shot. She might have appreciated a tilty-flippy, but she was also between the seated graduating class on the track behind her and the podium on the field in front of her. She always worked as unobtrusively as possible whenever I saw her shooting events and might have bent low anyway.

 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
3,197
790
Irving, Texas
200,000? More like 400,000 to 500,000 or more on a four year cycle for many of those folks.

I don't doubt that Canon could solve the engineering problem, but they might not be able to weather the marketing problem from a group (actual 1D users with high profiles - e.g. well known sports/action photogs) that is almost unequivocal that they DO NOT WANT a moveable screen on their camera.
I am unaware of any market research. Quoting a guy or two is not reliable. One could just as easily quote a person like myself, that would absolutely want one. Well known sports/wildlife shooters are a miniscule representation in the market. In fact, I can't name a single famous sports/wildlife photographer, or wedding photographer for that matter. When it comes down to purchase time, I get what I want. When it comes to design/manufacturing/marketing, Canon will do what Canon believes will sell best at the highest profit... no matter what their sponsored or unsponsored endorsers want.

Anyway,a guy named Scott Kelby shot a college and pro football game. Here's what he had to say about it. "So, they added some touchscreen technology for when you’re shooting video, but the screen on the back isn’t a touchscreen for anything else. You can’t choose menus by touch, or swipe through images, or pinch to zoom with touch, and so on like you’ve been able to do for years now on their old 70D model. I understand not making an articulated screen like the 70D (though that would be fantastic for shots of the coaches shaking hands at the end of the game, or the coin toss, or team huddles during warmups), but I just don’t get not including a full touch screen. I know some high-end pros might make a fuss about a touch-screen not being as durable, but not everybody buying this camera is a high-end pro. I think given a choice, most folks would opt for the touchscreen version."

Unlike Kelby, I do not get not having a fully functional articulated screen.
 
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privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
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I was going to point out the touch screen introduction as the perfect example of the ‘old pro’s’ being dipshits, and I am one! I didn’t want a touch screen until I got a partial one and then thought why in gods name doesn’t this do everything, the menus would be so much faster with it? Why is my touch screen crippled?

Same with tilting screens, if you don’t think you want it provide a locking pin to stop it moving, but very few people would never use it although it might take longer to grow on some!
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
I am unaware of any market research. Quoting a guy or two is not reliable. One could just as easily quote a person like myself, that would absolutely want one. Well known sports/wildlife shooters are a miniscule representation in the market. In fact, I can't name a single famous sports/wildlife photographer, or wedding photographer for that matter. When it comes down to purchase time, I get what I want. When it comes to design/manufacturing/marketing, Canon will do what Canon believes will sell best at the highest profit... no matter what their sponsored or unsponsored endorsers want.

Anyway,a guy named Scott Kelby shot a college and pro football game. Here's what he had to say about it. "So, they added some touchscreen technology for when you’re shooting video, but the screen on the back isn’t a touchscreen for anything else. You can’t choose menus by touch, or swipe through images, or pinch to zoom with touch, and so on like you’ve been able to do for years now on their old 70D model. I understand not making an articulated screen like the 70D (though that would be fantastic for shots of the coaches shaking hands at the end of the game, or the coin toss, or team huddles during warmups), but I just don’t get not including a full touch screen. I know some high-end pros might make a fuss about a touch-screen not being as durable, but not everybody buying this camera is a high-end pro. I think given a choice, most folks would opt for the touchscreen version."

Unlike Kelby, I do not get not having a fully functional articulated screen.
The point is not whether it might be useful or not, it is that the most high profile users who are also advisors to Canon's design teams are all on the same side of this one. Or at least none of them are willing to buck the party line and admit they want a tilty-flippy on a 1D camera. Kelby is a Photoshop expert who dabbles in sports, and gets access because of his name. He's also increasingly a YouTuber that seems like he will say anything for clicks. But he's no Neil Leifer or Walter Iooss. And while you may not know who those guys are, almost all of the folks shooting for agencies or who are full-time sports freelancers certainly do.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
573
241
I was going to point out the touch screen introduction as the perfect example of the ‘old pro’s’ being dipshits, and I am one! I didn’t want a touch screen until I got a partial one and then thought why in gods name doesn’t this do everything, the menus would be so much faster with it? Why is my touch screen crippled?

Same with tilting screens, if you don’t think you want it provide a locking pin to stop it moving, but very few people would never use it although it might take longer to grow on some!
I'm not making a case for or against whether these things might be useful to some. I'm just pointing out that typical 1D users, particularly the higher profile types of 1D users, don't like change if they think it may make their 1Ds less reliable. They don't see the value of things that might have value to them because they've never used them, and their ability to excel above others using what they are using now is what has put them at the top of the heap.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
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They don't see the value of things that might have value to them because they've never used them
/\ THIS

And the fact that “they think it may make their 1D’s less reliable” is generally an entirely misplaced concern. If Olympus can make a fully underwater-proof swivel screen on a P&S costing a few hundred dollars, and all the manufacturers have many years of experience in making reliable and robust swivel screens, I’m pretty sure Canon could make one for a multi thousand dollar camera.

I know half a dozen 1DX MkII owners and seen countless reviews and comments by owners/users and I have never heard one that doesn’t find the lack of touch screen expansion disappointing, yet how intense was the pushback on that before it was Included?
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
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I was going to point out the touch screen introduction as the perfect example of the ‘old pro’s’ being dipshits, and I am one! I didn’t want a touch screen until I got a partial one and then thought why in gods name doesn’t this do everything, the menus would be so much faster with it? Why is my touch screen crippled?

Same with tilting screens, if you don’t think you want it provide a locking pin to stop it moving, but very few people would never use it although it might take longer to grow on some!
I have a camera good buttons and joystick, I have another with articulated touchscreen. For some things I prefer one, for others I prefer the other. The best solution (for me) would be both.
 
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privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
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Wasn't comparing one to the other. That's why they are in separate posts responding to different comments.

The Yoga master was lining up this shot. She might have appreciated a tilty-flippy, but she was also between the seated graduating class on the track behind her and the podium on the field in front of her. She always worked as unobtrusively as possible whenever I saw her shooting events and might have bent low anyway.

And she did an excellent job of getting the uninterrupted sky as an excellent contrasting color and nicely out of focus flowers framing the bottom half of the lecturn . Though I must be honest if I had seen the same framing I’d like to see a portrait orientation with the sky, subject, lecturn and then the flowers to give context by seeing the coat of arms. But she might well have not had the vertical separation of the sky/stadium to do that without making the background too busy.

Certainly her contortions to achieve the very strong blue/yellow color combination shows superb technique.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
3,197
790
Irving, Texas
I'm not making a case for or against whether these things might be useful to some. I'm just pointing out that typical 1D users, particularly the higher profile types of 1D users, don't like change if they think it may make their 1Ds less reliable. They don't see the value of things that might have value to them because they've never used them, and their ability to excel above others using what they are using now is what has put them at the top of the heap.
  1. Where's the list of typical 1D users? You are guessing. The guys you list are not "typical". They are a tiny, tiny, tiny group of buyers.
  2. Where do I find anything that says a fully articulated touch screen would make the camera less reliable? Nowhere.
  3. "They don't see the value of things that might have value to them because they've never used them." Now that's true. And those features would not suddenly move them down the totem pole either, would it? No. Then, you say they have never used them? Then why the heck should anyone care about their opinion? I could do a BMW M5 review on youtube. Yet what would be the point. I've never used one. So my opinion would be worthless. Even my perceptions would be worthless. I guess I have got past the age where somebody's name being dropped impresses me.