There will be no mirrorless camera body announced ahead of Photokina

RGF

How you relate to the issue, is the issue.
Jul 13, 2012
2,816
35
The only screeching of nails on a chalkboard at Canon leading to a 'student body right' sort of course correction would be:
  • If Nikon went F mount and thin mount on mirrorless and Canon wasn't planning to do the same. If you really want Full EF mirrorless and Canon doesn't make it, Nikon making one of their own would surely spur Canon to do the same.

  • Someone launches a curved / variable- curved sensor setup and it actually works (without major strings attached). That's a lens physics game-changer, if you will, and truly small high quality lenses could be made.

  • Canon starts to see data that Sony is actually flipping pros in larger numbers, and not in these lull times for Canon when big new products aren't being launched. If Sony continues to do well with the A7 against the headwinds of the N6/N7 launch, a future Canon FF mirrorless launch, etc. Canon may have to go to the mattresses in get in a value knife-fight. (We should want this as Canon users.)

  • Someone makes a computational multi-lens onboard non-ILC camera that works really well and becomes some social media phenomenon. (What Light could have been.)
- A
I think there is more to that just immediate sales.

And that is the roadmap, either explicit or implicit, that Nikon lays out. Nikon seems to have gone w/ new lens mount as well as something in the future that may support the current lens mount (not clear).

Canon appears to have s strategy of going high/low around key nikon products. 5D M4 and 5DS surround the D800/810 and 850 at least in the MP wars.

time will tell ..
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
743
90
Very few major corporations practice Agile for hardware. Bosch does with some of its product. Does canon?
I was referring more about the software development for said hardware products, for which I would hope they practice Agile.
For me it's the video side that's lacking. I know, you are probably going to say "so buy a video camera". But I say, why? The A7III is great at both stills AND video. To get the same features from Canon I have to buy a 1DX Mark II or separate cameras for stills and video. This is where I feel Canon is very far behind and not competitive in the current market. I had 3 Canon cameras up to about a month ago. Now all I have left is a 6D Mark II with a 24-70 f2.8L II, 100mm f2.8L and 70-300 f4-5.6. Probably wouldn't be that much of a loss from this point to switch. Though Sony glass is stupidly expensive so additional costs will be necessary to acquire everything that I would want.
Canon may have beaten me. There's now a feeling a mirrorless body will be announced on the 5th. Preorders happening at a later date.
Same report as the one from Canonwatch?
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,474
712
You realize that the specs for this camera were probably set three years ago? Also, Canon, Nikon, and Sony do industrial espionage on each other.... they probably know what is coming out several years ahead of release....
I think that they do not know what is coming from Canon. Canon is very careful, only a small number of people have the full picture up to the point where the camera is 4-6 months away from announcement. They have many different prototypes floating around, so any early info is just looking at a possibility. Nikon and Sony likely have good information 4-6 months in advance as far as the major components, but not detailed performance, that is extrapolated and surprises can happen.

However, it is true that Mirrorless cameras fall into the "almost as good" category when compared to DSLR's. Don't expect them to outperform. DPR has already done a lot of testing of a Z and found it poorer than even consumer grade Nikon DSLR's across the board.

As mirrorless cameras go, its very good, but not DSLR good.
 

ecpu

EOS 80D
Aug 21, 2018
110
75
I think that they do not know what is coming from Canon. Canon is very careful, only a small number of people have the full picture up to the point where the camera is 4-6 months away from announcement. They have many different prototypes floating around, so any early info is just looking at a possibility. Nikon and Sony likely have good information 4-6 months in advance as far as the major components, but not detailed performance, that is extrapolated and surprises can happen.

However, it is true that Mirrorless cameras fall into the "almost as good" category when compared to DSLR's. Don't expect them to outperform. DPR has already done a lot of testing of a Z and found it poorer than even consumer grade Nikon DSLR's across the board.

As mirrorless cameras go, its very good, but not DSLR good.
Is this true when comparing Sony Mirrorless to DSLR's or just Nikon Z?
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
448
48
Specs do not make better pictures and specs making something the "Gold Standard" is just a matter of opinion, not fact. His statement clearly meant that Sony is the "Gold standard" in the context of the post. Context means everything when it comes to comprehension. One sentence usually does not.

Specs absolutely do not make good photos. Neither does that little extra dynamic range. It doesn't make things easier either. Great photos are made by a variety of factors and I consider composition and lighting to be the biggest factors. Again, context. You Sony fanboys always scream about dynamic range.

I don't assume that some people posting who criticize Canon and praise Sony (over and over) don't use and have not used a Sony or particular Canon cameras. That is fact. Just because you do does not mean everyone else does. Like your Sony? Great! You actually use one. Somebody commenting about a camera being the "Gold Standard" that has not? Yeah, okay. Again, context. He's not the only one who comments and has never used it. BTW: There are people here who have used it and found it not satisfying and also found that some of the specs are just hype.

No other competitor until now, except Leica, as TonyPicture points out. Not nearly in the same market. Tell me, is the Leica a better camera than the Sony? Sorry, I'll just check the spec sheet to find out. Not having used either one, and having never seen either in real life, I guess my assessment of the Leica would absolutely be valid... just looking at the spec sheet. :rolleyes:

Specs don't mean crap when it comes to great photos. Otherwise, those great photographers from the past would no longer be considered great. Their specs didn't get those photos. Their composition, lighting, and post processing skills did.

So my point was, and is, that the spec sheet warriors can whine about specs all they want. Most of them have never touched the "Gold Standard" and if they did they wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. Getting the camera they say is better based on specs isn't going to make them better photogs. Saying Canon won't make a competitive camera? Well, that remains to be seen.

Yup, I am dum (Twice. It's dumb, silly). BTW: My spelling and punctuation isn't properly spec'd either. That didn't stop me, though, from criticizing your specs even though I have never seen or used your brain.

Yup. I am a fanboy. I actually chose that screen name out of sarcasm. However, Canon's specs work out just fine for me.

I'm too dum to call you a troll.
====

BINGO! You have hit the nail on the head with a Twenty Ton Hammer !!!! You DO NOT NEED a $10,000 camera to take decent photos. These below example photos were taken with an Asus Zenfone-2 and a cheap $50 five-megapixel 2010-era Nokia smartphone...While a bit over-saturated, I say from a consumer point of view, that they look half-decent to me in terms of general composition and foreground sharpness and would be perfectly fine additions to the average Joe and Jane Q. Public's Family photo album!

The key is to CROP HARD and fix your contrast ratios and most of your photos will be FINE!

Go ahead and pixel peep. The key for smartphone photos is to first set your contrast, brightness and shadows correctly in editing and THEN CUT your final output resolution IN HALF on each axis so that 4000 x 2500 pixel photos become 2000 by 1250 pixel photos (Use Bicubic or Lanczos-3 resize algorithms). After that image resize, do an UNSHARP MASK to sharpen object edges ONLY and there you go! NOW SAVE your edited image full colour 24-bits per RGB pixel or better quality PNG (Not JPEG!) files. You've now got half-decent photos that will print out just fine at standard 7x5 inch photo frame sizes. On my Epson printer, I can get away with printing at 8.5 by 11 inches paper sizes (using fit-to-page) if I set my printout resolution to 2400 DPI and use PERCEPTUAL colour matching to ensure what I see on my screen is what I get on my hard copy prints.
 

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ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
502
Nikon seems to have gone w/ new lens mount as well as something in the future that may support the current lens mount (not clear).
F mount will continue as well, don't get me wrong.

But between a fragmented F mount compatibility situation (a good number of lenses will physically shoot / have aperture control but lose AF) and a lens portfolio that screams 'professional' (replacing vital pro tools in the thin mount: 14-24 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8, etc.) has me thinking Nikon wants to rebuild F in Z rather than simply offer a few smaller lenses for a smaller overall rig.

Consider: that pipeline didn't have a single f/2.8 prime and only one f/4 zoom -- and that's what you build a 'keep it small prioritized' FF platform around.

So my money is on EF living on strong for a long, long time. F mount? Less so. It will stick around, but not nearly as long. Nikon prioritizing rebuilding pro tools in the new mount is a shot across the bow for current Nikonians considering buying new glass.

- A
 
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SV

EOS M50
Aug 24, 2017
27
19
That's really nice of Canon to let the other manufactures go first with Mirrorless FF so that they can feel like they're finally winning for a while.
 

HarryFilm

EOS 7D MK II
Jun 6, 2016
448
48
keep in mind it may be a M5 Mark II
===

My European sources say that the ONLY thing that's coming to Photokina 2018 from Canon is an announcement about a Canon Cinema EOS XC-15-style video camera with an interchangeble lens mount and a one inch sensor BUT full 4K imagery at decent bit rates useable for budget filmmakers. My sources are not sure whether this is just a simple product engineering announcement for an eventual full rollout at CES 2019, or whether this is the full camera introduction for sale in October/November. They are simply just not sure!
 

Respinder

5D Mark III
Mar 4, 2012
59
26
that's the problem with Canon. They wait too long between releases. Apple has the same problem agains Samsung, Big German car makers take too long too, companies like Hyundai and Kia release new updated models much more quickly. Sony knows the market is a lot faster than it used to be. A cell phone could last you 3 years or more bur people want a new one once a year. If they could have one every six months, they would also buy it,
Nobody wants to wait anymore. There is no need. Sony did it first, Nikon second, Canon needs to step it up and blow them away, but not with a half-ass system with an EF mount. It needs to be something dramatic and future-ready.

Maybe the "R" is for R-Mount. If that is the case, I would release the camera along with a 50mm 1.4 R, a 24-70 2.8 R and a 70-200 2.8 R.

One can only dream ;)
I was actually not so much worried about the lag in between releases, but rather the fact that Canon clearly has the money and R&D to destroy the competition, but they for whatever reason choose not to. Example is Cinema EOS - its an incredible system, yet Canon chooses to keep that line and its features separate, and has not yet released a new version of the Canon 1DC. Other example - Canon chooses to release C-log on the 5D Mark IV, which has the crop issue for video, and yet they have chosen to not release a C-log for their flagship 1DX Mark II, which, I might add, is thus far their best video/photo product on the market. Why Canon? Why?

So here's my recommendation - I think Northlight or CR Guy mentioned a long time ago how it wouldn't make much sense for Canon to release a "3D" without it having, well, "3D" capabilities. So why not call it the "3C" - make it a mirrorless camera with EF-mount, but include all the cinema innovations that have made it into the Cinema EOS line, plus make it a low-light demon with fast speed to rival the Sony alpha 9? The point is Canon can do all of this if they wanted to. The question is: Will they?

I also think given the R&D, Canon can support a hybrid solution that accepts both EF-mount lens at the 44mm flange distance, as well as "EF-R" lenses (as you've termed them) at a 16 or lower mm flange distance, by including a tech in-camera that adjusts and retracts the lens closer to the sensor depending on what lens it is. This is the "sexy solution" that I'm sure they are working on, and it makes far more sense than splintering the market with two formats (i.e. mirrorless EF and slim-profile ML) - they need a hybrid solution that can accept both mediums. But the R&D is significant - this is why you are seeing the delay. Question is: is Canon smart enough to do it?

Really, they need to get away from their thinking that releasing one product cannibalizes the other. Does any other consumer electronics company think this way? Obviously not. If Canon is worried about Cinema EOS, then just innovate it further with more features versus EOS - Simple! Its additive thinking, rather than subtractive thinking. Again its all in Canon's hands. I have no doubt they will obliterate everyone in the market IF they want to. The question is: Will they?

Back to your point about the gap between the releases - Honestly I love this about Canon. I love buying a camera and having it last 3-4 years without any upgrades produced. If your a wedding photographer - this matters - especially if you have a client that looks at the models you're using and insists that you have "up-to-date" equipment - with Sony it is annoying that they release many camera upgrades within shorter time periods - I hate that, and if Canon can produce a high quality product that can last 3-4 years I'm all for it.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,082
404
Why wouldn't EF lenses work? No one has explained this to me. The easiest sell Canon has with this new system is to court existing Canon SLR owners, who are expecting EF compatibility. Done.

Presuming it's thin mount and adaptor*, it will be a simple electronic passthrough. It should work identically to DPAF.

*If they go full EF mount instead (unthinkable, but might be a second body option sold alongside a thin mount mirrorless), EF works natively (again) via DPAF.

I'm completely lost on why EF won't work and work brilliantly with FF mirrorless. Please explain this to me.

- A
I expect most existing will work fine. Will they work as well as newer lenses with different drive systems (e.g. STM vs USM)? Maybe not. As always it would then be up to the user to upgrade or not based on the value proposition (see also L generation 1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc).
 
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ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
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Back to your point about the gap between the releases - Honestly I love this about Canon. I love buying a camera and having it last 3-4 years without any upgrades produced. If your a wedding photographer - this matters - especially if you have a client that looks at the models you're using and insists that you have "up-to-date" equipment - with Sony it is annoying that they release many camera upgrades within shorter time periods - I hate that, and if Canon can produce a high quality
product that can last 3-4 years I'm all for it.
+1. Or on year six if you are a happy year one 5D3 owner like me. :cool: The camera has worked perfectly for me and I'm not inundated with changes and firmware updates. It's a piece of hardware, not a video game in beta.

Sure, there are a host of things I want (caveat: in a 5-series feature set):
  • Tilty flippy
  • On chip sensor, more resolution
  • DPAF
  • Wifi
  • Thumb-dragging the touchscreen to change the AF points through the OVF
  • Spot metering at any AF point
But (a) that camera doesn't exist, and (b) no single feature on that list is enough to have me fork over $3k+ for a 10--20% better product.

- A
 
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Respinder

5D Mark III
Mar 4, 2012
59
26
+1. Or on year six if you are a happy year one 5D3 owner like me. :cool: The camera has worked perfectly for me and I'm not inundated with changes and firmware updates. It's a piece of hardware, not a video game in beta.

Sure, there are a host of things I want (caveat: in a 5-series feature set):
  • Tilty flippy
  • On chip sensor, more resolution
  • DPAF
  • Wifi
  • Thumb-dragging the touchscreen to change the AF points through the OVF
  • Spot metering at any AF point
But (a) that camera doesn't exist, and (b) no single feature on that list is enough to have me fork over $3k+ for a 10--20% better product.

- A
Agreed with you, and same with me I still have my 5DMIII and I absolutely love it. Now I'm just waiting for Canon's mirrorless (3C?) solution - and hopefully a 50 f1.0 (or 0.95) AF lens to go along with it?
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
I don't think the argument is whether or not it will work, but whether or not there will be any compromises. More of a concern to me is spending thousands on EF glass then finding out the new camera uses a newer mount that offers an advantage over EF.
new glass WILL offer advantages. EF lenses will be "legacy" and work within their limitations [designed for use with SLRs, detached Phase AF].
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,604
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new glass WILL offer advantages. EF lenses will be "legacy" and work within their limitations [designed for use with SLRs, detached Phase AF].
Is that assertion:

A) ...based on your repeatedly demonstrated technical expertise concerning AF systems, or
B) ...based on your throughly documented inside information from your sources within Canon’s engineering team, or
C) ...yet another ‘fact’ that you’ve made up as part of your typical forum rants?

Smart money is on C.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,972
502
new glass WILL offer advantages. EF lenses will be "legacy" and work within their limitations [designed for use with SLRs, detached Phase AF].

Maybe I should say this another way: there's no way EF glass on FF mirrorless will work worse than it does in Liveview + DPAF on a modern body today. Not a bad place to start at all.

And that is just the ground floor of it. DPAF could become QPAF or get extra/dedicated processing power to speed it up someday.

So any notion that adapting for mirrorless will crush your L lens AF speed simply isn't substantiated in LiveView on (say) a 5D4 or 6D2 today.

- A
 
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