There will be no mirrorless camera body announced ahead of Photokina

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
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Possible yes. But I don't expect this to be the case. Mirrorfree high-fps cameras will (hopefully!) also get adequately hi-performance AF systems.In combination with new native lenses "designed to fully utilize and support this AF system" they should well exceed anything possible in terms of AF in a DSLR with detached Phase-AF. But ... we shall see. Sony A9 with native FE lenses does not seem to be much behind - if at all - in AF performance compared to Canon 1DX II with EF lenses in "detached Phase-AF" mode [viewfinder operation] ...

Whereas first reports on Nikon Z6/Z7 seem to indicate that AF performance with native z-lenses is not fully on par with Nikon F-lenses on Nikon DSLRs in viewfinder mode [detached phase-AF]. Dyed in the wool Nik-apologists :D are quick to point out however, that AF performance may be hampered by "half-baked, early firmware/software" and hope for improved AF performance with future firmware updates.:)
I’ve seen mixed reviews of A9, particularly for low light. Some (Tony Northrup for example) say it’s better than the D5. Others (Stuart Dubbs for example) say it’s okay but not in low light when you need to react quickly.

My extended and short experience with the a7rii and iii, respectively, show a little of both. In good light with relatively little in-and-out of plane motion, those systems are pretty good. In fast motion, approaching motion, or low light, my 5Diii and 1Dx are better. A9 is similar in AF architecture to Riii, but since the sensor reads significantly more frequently, the former has more data to work with and is a better performer.

I wonder if an a7siii would be better than an riii, given its bigger (yet still color-filtered) pixels.
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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well, lots of folk here argue against me exactly on that point. When I say, EF lenses will be LEGACY on any new mirrorfree Canon camera, irrespective of mount decision, because of lower AF performance and communication-based performance compared to new native lenses. It will affect majority of EF lenses, except STM and possibly Nano USM and hopefully most recent updates. Not sure, whether many of the older ones can get suitable firmware updates.
You can say that until you're blue in the face, you have no evidence to support that assertion.

What we do know is that Canon states all current lenses are fully compatible with DPAF. Lenses that aren't fully compatible are long-discontinued lenses (28-70, 80-200, non-IS superteles, etc.). With those lenses (and Don, this may be the source of your confusion), DPAF provides only the direction, then the system switches over to CDAF to achieve focus (which is faster than just CDAF alone)

The key point here, and the point which counters AvTvM's unsupported argument about EF lenses becoming 'legacy', is that Canon made dedicated efforts to ensure full compatibility of current lenses with DPAF. That meant empirically testing >100 lenses and modifying the algorithms underlying DPAF as needed to support all of them.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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hehehe. So lenses like the EF 50/1.4 are on your list of "fully DP-AF supporting lenses"? You must be joking. Some EF lenses cannot even tell the camera body the currently selected focus distance ... no feedback loop.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
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hehehe. So lenses like the EF 50/1.4 are on your list of "fully DP-AF supporting lenses"? You must be joking. Some EF lenses cannot even tell the camera body the currently selected focus distance ... no feedback loop.
I think EF 50/1.4 supports DPAF about as good as it supports a dedicated AF sensor... which means not very well. My copy of 50/1.4 is not an AF monster for sure.

50/1.4 doesn't even have a proper Ring USM.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
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hehehe. So lenses like the EF 50/1.4 are on your list of "fully DP-AF supporting lenses"? You must be joking. Some EF lenses cannot even tell the camera body the currently selected focus distance ... no feedback loop.
Oh, the horror! The lack of focus distance information will have a very modest negative impact on E-TTL II automatic flash exposure, which is how the camera uses the focus distance data. So instead of E-TTL II, you only get E-TTL metering. THE HORROR!!!

As Kit. states, the weak AF performance of has nothing to do with not being 'optimized for DPAF/mirrorless' and everything to do with its funky not-quite-USM AF drive.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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Oh, the horror! The lack of focus distance information will have a very modest negative impact on E-TTL II automatic flash exposure, which is how the camera uses the focus distance data. So instead of E-TTL II, you only get E-TTL metering. THE HORROR!!!
E-TTL is only one - long known issue. Not the topic here however.
Good DP-AF performance is not done by just sending a command from camera to lens, it also needs a back loop from lens to camera. Even more so, should Canon DP-AF implementation also include some Contrast-Detect for fine adjustment at end of AF-action or in other specific situations.

Again, I don't expect most EF lenses [except the more recent lenses with STM or Nano-USM AF drive and hopefully the latest iterations of Mk. III L lenses] to AF any better on future mirrorfree cameras than they do today in LiveView on DSLRs. At best. Even if AF system on mirrorfree cameras would allow for much better performance and functionality. Full AF performance will only be had with new native lenses. In that regard [almost all] current EF lenses will be "legacy".

That said, for many use cases AF performance as in LiveView on DP-AF DSLRs may be sufficient for many use cases, so no need to dump them immediately. Well, maybe I should put my rarely used, pristine condition EF 50/1.4 up for sale now. I prefer the 50/1.8 STM anyways. And it should be fine on future Canon FF mirrorfree cameras. :)
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
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Good DP-AF performance is not done by just sending a command from camera to lens, it also needs a back loop from lens to camera.
Did HarryFilm tell you how he designed DPAF for Canon?

Again, I don't expect most EF lenses [except the more recent lenses with STM or Nano-USM AF drive and hopefully the latest iterations of Mk. III L lenses] to AF any better on future mirrorfree cameras than they do today in LiveView on DSLRs.
I wouldn't expect STM and Nano-USM to be any different.

Full AF performance will only be had with new native lenses.
What makes you think that "new native lenses" will be any better than new EF lenses?

That said, for many use cases AF performance as in LiveView on DP-AF DSLRs may be sufficient for many use cases,
What makes you think that new mirrorless cameras will have AF performance any better than in Live View on new SLRs?
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
3,019
367
E-TTL is only one - long known issue. Not the topic here however.
Good DP-AF performance is not done by just sending a command from camera to lens, it also needs a back loop from lens to camera.
I know some cameras use lens data (specifically focus distance and focal length) for image stabilization purposes. I don’t know of any which use it for AF. The sensors measure phase or contrast and instruct the lens to move. The sensors then measure phase or contrast again and if it’s within some range it stops, otherwise it instructs the lens to move again. I suppose a lens could have a resolver to confirm it moved as instructed, but ultimately I’d rather have the AF sensor make the determination.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
new native lenses will have LEM AF drives which will enable unprecedented AF performance and functionality - in combination with more computing power/ algorithms/AI in both camera and new lenses. it will surpass DSLR detached Phase AF performance. whether innovative Canon manages this already in 1st gen FF MILCs and lenses and/or only on higher end models remains to be seen however.

STM lenses and nano USM are better suitable because their AF drive was designed not only with stills/separate Phase AF but also with video capture in mind. video on DSLRs = in LiveView =mirrorfree.

but compared to new native lenses for mirrorfree with LEM AF drives similar to Sony FE and Fuji lenses will also make STM EF glass "legacy".

future EF lenses? theoretically yes, although they might be held back somewhat by requirements of DSLR viewfinder Phase AF system.

in practice, well there probably won't be that many new ef lenses coming when canon is busy to fulfill a whole roadmap of new lenses for mirrorfree.
i don't expect a lot of new F- mount lenses from nikon either for the next 3 years. and after that they won't be needed any longer. :)
 

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
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Canon's Corporate Philosophy & Spirit

Canon’s Vision is Kyosei. Kyosei, a Japanese idea, means conveying “dedication to seeing all people, regardless of culture, customs, language or race, harmoniously living and working together in happiness into the future.”

Sometimes it feels like Canon's Vision has failed, looking at some of the arguments on the forum.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,086
515
new native lenses will have LEM AF drives which will enable unprecedented AF performance and functionality - in combination with more computing power/ algorithms/AI in both camera and new lenses. it will surpass DSLR detached Phase AF performance. whether innovative Canon manages this already in 1st gen FF MILCs and lenses and/or only on higher end models remains to be seen however.
So, just marketing BS?

STM lenses and nano USM are better suitable because their AF drive was designed not only with stills/separate Phase AF but also with video capture in mind. video on DSLRs = in LiveView =mirrorfree.
No, video on DSLR = quieter and slower (smoother) to autofocus.

but compared to new native lenses for mirrorfree with LEM AF drives similar to Sony FE and Fuji lenses will also make STM EF glass "legacy".
Sony's white lenses use ring USM. Sony's 100-400 uses ring USM and two linear motors.

future EF lenses? theoretically yes, although they might be held back somewhat by requirements of DSLR viewfinder Phase AF system.
Which requirements in particular?

in practice, well there probably won't be that many new ef lenses coming when canon is busy to fulfill a whole roadmap of new lenses for mirrorfree.
The latest EF releases and the rumors tell otherwise.

i don't expect a lot of new F- mount lenses from nikon either for the next 3 years. and after that they won't be needed any longer. :)
Do you think that Nikon won't survive the failure of its second attempt at MILC?
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
No, video on DSLR = quieter and slower (smoother) to autofocus.
totally in line with the requirements for "good AF" in mirrorfree cameras = full time "liveView" video cameras, capturing stills images as well.

(future) EF lenses will have to be suited to both:
1) advanced DP-AF operation on DSLRs in liveview and when adapted to Canon mirrorfree cameras
2) mirrorslapper Phase-AF in existing and new Canon DSLRs
those 2 sets of requirements are not 100% identical.
 
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Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
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in line with the requirements for "good AF" in mirrorfree cameras = full time "liveView" video cameras, capturing stills images as well.
Where did you get that "requirements"?

Are you saying that you are mainly interested in video cameras, and their stills abilities are of secondary importance? Or are you trying to restrict your needs so that they match the capabilities on a current fashion item?
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
Are you saying that you are mainly interested in video cameras, and their stills abilities are of secondary importance? Or are you trying to restrict your needs so that they match the capabilities on a current fashion item?
No, just try to read and understand my posts. As you should well know by now, I am not in the least interested in "video cameras". BUT ... mirrorfree EOS cameras are "video cameras with stills capture capability".

To autofocus well on all platforms, future EF lenses will have to comply with the union of the following sets of requirements:
A. traditional, separate Phase-AF in existing and future Canon EOS DSLRs
B. Hybrid CMOS-AF in liveview mode in existing Canon EOS DSLRs (preceding DP-AF models)
C. DP-AF in liveview mode in current and future Canon EOS DSLRs
D. "advanced" implementations of DP-AF in future mirrorfree Canon EOS cameras [mounted via adapter]
D. DP-AF in existing mirrorfree Canon EOS M cameras [mounted via adapter]
F. Hybrid CMOS AF in existing mirrorfree Canon EOS-M cameras (preceding DP-AF models) [mounted via adapter]

While some pairs of these requirement sets may be very similar or even equal [eg. B and F or C and D] I don't think it applies to all of them.
 
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Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,086
515
No, just try tor read and understand.
Back at you.

As you should know by now, I am not interested at all in "video cameras". BUT ... all mirrorfree cameras are "video cameras with stills capture capability".
It's like saying "I am not interested in hammers, but all cameras are hammers with image capture capability, so cameras' abilities to hit nails should be of first priority, even if it harms image capture".

Digital cameras are not video cameras. Many of them can be used as video cameras, but it's not a reason to sacrifice the stills autofocus of primarily stills cameras.

Future EF lenses (if there are any, lol)
At least two are rumored to be announced before/at Photokina, lol.

will have to serve BOTH parameter sets to work well on existing and future Canon DLSRs and future Canon FF mirrorfree cameras.
What makes you think that it's a hard task?

So hard to understand?
So far, you said nothing that could not be understood as wishful thinking and belief in marketing BS.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
151
edited my previous post for more clarity before i saw your response, please kindly re-read, thx.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
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No, just try to read and understand my posts.
Reading them is easy. Understanding them would be greatly facilitated if you presented actual facts, correct information, and/or logical reasoning.

To autofocus well on all platforms, future EF lenses will have to comply with the union of the following sets of requirements:
A. traditional, separate Phase-AF in existing and future Canon EOS DSLRs
B. Hybrid CMOS-AF in liveview mode in existing Canon EOS DSLRs (preceding DP-AF models)
C. DP-AF in liveview mode in current and future Canon EOS DSLRs
D. "advanced" implementations of DP-AF in future mirrorfree Canon EOS cameras [mounted via adapter]
E. DP-AF in existing mirrorfree Canon EOS M cameras [mounted via adapter]
F. Hybrid CMOS AF in existing mirrorfree Canon EOS-M cameras (preceding DP-AF models) [mounted via adapter]
Current EF lenses satisfy all except 'D', and you have no idea what advancements may be implemented. Regardless, Canon's efforts to ensure compatibility of current lenses with DPAF (empirical testing of >100 lenses and modifying DPAF algorithms accordingly) is strong evidence that Canon will ensure full compatibility of current and future EF lenses with any advancements made in DPAF.

There are no data to support the contention that EF lenses (current ones or the many forthcoming ones) will suffer any negative AF performance impact when used on a MILC, aside from the differences inherent in DPAF vs. off-sensor PDAF (e.g., the light wavelength and intensity restrictions of DPAF).
 
Aug 30, 2018
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Well, considering aa lot of CPS Members are invited tönte Photokina for free, I still,see possibilities for a new body. The last time they invited so many people for free was with the introduction of the 6D.